Money-mouth time

[X] [Law] Flexibility
[X] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

No write ins. Besides, that option already exists, it is what I am choosing ;)


...except we aren't taxing labour?

This is about how people can pay. The options say "or", not "and"
Most of our farmers prefer not to pay in coin, and if they don't pay in coin they have to pay in labor instead under the (Coin, Labor) Tax.

That's the point I was trying to make.
 
If we don't take paying with Labor, we should probably make sure to spend at least a secondary every turn on an Econ consuming infrastructure thing, to make sure that are paying people for stuff. Anyway, time to vote.

[X] [Law] Community health
I'm am the most cool with this option, but am fine with most of the ones offered. This just seems like the one most likely to handle the social woes, and to maybe get started developing medical tech again?

I personally don't think I know enough about taxes to way in on it.

[X] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
Cultural exports! The ability to send aid to other civs before they start disgorging refugees! Possibly an additional dominance, considering our probably disproportionate ability to create food?

[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
Heroic Mystic and Golden Age got us iron last time, and while that also took a crit, I'm hoping we can pull off something at least a third as completely ridiculous this time.

[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
Structural advances have gotten us provinces originally, and improved actions more recently. Pushing it further seems like a good idea all-around.
 
If we don't take paying with Labor, we should probably make sure to spend at least a secondary every turn on an Econ consuming infrastructure thing, to make sure that are paying people for stuff. Anyway, time to vote.

[X] [Law] Community health
I'm am the most cool with this option, but am fine with most of the ones offered. This just seems like the one most likely to handle the social woes, and to maybe get started developing medical tech again?

I personally don't think I know enough about taxes to way in on it.

[X] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
Cultural exports! The ability to send aid to other civs before they start disgorging refugees! Possibly an additional dominance, considering our probably disproportionate ability to create food?

[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
Heroic Mystic and Golden Age got us iron last time, and while that also took a crit, I'm hoping we can pull off something at least a third as completely ridiculous this time.

[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
Structural advances have gotten us provinces originally, and improved actions more recently. Pushing it further seems like a good idea all-around.
We do have infrastructure and defense passive policies on, both of which involve building things for the State, so I would think that that counts as infrastructure stuff.
 
If we don't take paying with Labor, we should probably make sure to spend at least a secondary every turn on an Econ consuming infrastructure thing, to make sure that are paying people for stuff. Anyway, time to vote.

Infrastructure and defense got that covered. Terrible joke i know.

Sad about lack of forest policy.
 
[X] [Law] Balance of interests
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
 
but Labour+Coin scales better as we shift more and more population off of farming.
You know we're not going to be doing that any time during the Iron Age right? By the time adjusting the law for non-farmers is a problem, we're already going to have to update our law for a different age anyhow. It was only until Industrialization that the population even stopped being majority-farming.
 
Still allows for a big pile of farms to have a shared minimum sized granary for the sake of "efficiency", meaning they each only have to store a tiny bit of food and can sell all their output to enrich themselves.

Even without that, creating a minimum size rule that is fitting for all of our territory, from the breadbaskets to the mining focused areas, is pretty hard.

The clerks already started measuring food store and population, so i think the granary aren't going to be smaller anytime soon.

They have been keeping our population fed even in trying times.
 
So the farmers are still happy with the labour payment. Like I said, Food+Coin is more optimal short-term, but Labour+Coin scales better as we shift more and more population off of farming.

That being said thanks for picking out the quote.
If you define short term as at least a thousand years in the future, then sure, it's short term.

The majority of our population will be farmers until we come up with machines that can essentially do all of the hard part of farming for us, which would require us to be astronomically more advanced than we currently are.

I would rather take the current optimal form of tax then take a more complex one that won't become necessary for a very, very long time.
 
[X] [Law] Balance of interests
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
 
So the farmers are still happy with the labour payment. Like I said, Food+Coin is more optimal short-term, but Labour+Coin scales better as we shift more and more population off of farming.

That being said thanks for picking out the quote.
The shift from farming population didn't happen irl till the invention of the combustion engine. The lowest it got prior to that was high 60%/low 70%
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
Why community health? This doesn't seem like a strong idea to me, especially if we can't enforce it due to laws being hard to enforce.

Because they would look at the members in the shittest conditions to see how low that community can be. That means the chief have responsibility to ensure the least fortunate members are able to work to success.

Since the chiefs are held responsible ultimately to higher chiefs.
 
I advocate for coin and food. Food would already largely have a set price on the market at any points in time, and most of our society is based on farmers so they're either elites with coin or farmers with food.
Reminder that this crisis started back then with the coin value of food changing seasonally and people using it to game the government by just swapping food for coin for luxuries in an infinite money loop by gaming exchange rates.

The reason that I think we should tax only food and coin is primarily because AN said that around 90% of our population are farmers. That means that the majority of people can pay with food because we have amazing farming practices and basically never have any bad harvests, so food is always an option.

Those that aren't farmers likely almost all live in our True Cities, which means that they are the clerks, artisans, and oligarchs, the people who make a bunch of money. It's easiest for them to pay in coin because they don't have time to farm or do things outside of their field of work, so coin is an acceptable substitute. Plus, we have been using coins in cities already for hundreds of years, so it's an easy concept to follow. The State will also only have to keep track of two types of tax, and won't have to worry about what each labor is individually worth and if labor is worth a different amount in different places or whatever, so it doesn't add too much unneeded complexity.

I'm also against paying with labor because it would negatively impact our lower class, in that people would be encouraged to work in shitty conditions or possibly do unsavory "favors" to meet their labor quotas, and because they pay in labor they don't really get the chance to make coin and move out of their shitty conditions.

Reminder that this screws the lower class HARD. Farmers are middle class at present since they have time and wealth. Lower class are menial labor in cities.

[] [Tax] Coin only

Strongly favors the urban elite, and is the easiest for the clerks but puts an immense strain on our metal supply. We need enough coin for EVERYONE, or watch the value of a coin skyrocket.
The poor are forced to work shitty jobs for the coin to pay their taxes if the metal supply drops.

The biggest stress point here is that it's fragile to mine output and there's basically nothing you can do about that.

[] [Tax] Food or coin

Strongly favors the rural, strongly disfavors the urban poor.

The biggest stress point here is that it's fragile to environment and economy.

In times of bountiful harvest, people will take their coin to buy cheap grain to pay their taxes, which the government then sells cheaply for coin to trade for labor at a loss or face wastage from food spoilage.
In times of famine, people will pay the government in coin, which reduces the amount of grain the government has available to cope with crisis.

Functionally, a Coin/Food Tax establishes a floor value for food.
Food will never go cheaper than their tax value.

[] [Tax] Labour or coin

Strongly favors manual laborers, disfavors the wealthy elite.

The biggest stress point here is that it's complicated to make 'fair' or 'flexible', but it ensures a steady supply of unskilled labor for infrastructure and megaprojects.

Functionally, a Coin/Labor tax establishes a floor value for labor.
Your wages will never go cheaper than their tax value.

@Academia Nut do we have a standard granary size, because otherwise people will play silly buggers with their granaries, I'm betting.
Literalist reading.
Granaries refer to the state granaries, remember?


So, to expand upon my Tax vote with some analysis (because YAY TAXES :V)

[][Tax] Food, labour, or coin
This is incredibly complicated, and specifically called out in-text as being extremely complicated. Expect problems if we do this, both immediately (hard to make the rules work) and long-term (hard to keep all three values in sync with each other)

[][Tax] Food or coin
This is short-term optimal. So long as the harvests are good, the elites pay in coin and the farmers pay in food. The problem then comes in those who are neither. It's not really practical to maintain a small farm, so if you want to try some new innovation that might or might not work it's hard to save up enough coin to both fund the project and pay your taxes.
Furthermore, if we do get a bad harvest, the rural farmers are in a lot of trouble. They don't have coin since the goods they sell (food) is ruined. They don't have food, it was ruined. Thus they either don't pay their taxes or they pay their taxes and starve.

[][Tax] Labour or coin
This is simple: the government wants some large public works project or other government-run low-skill job. They assign some minimum wage and if you don't have the coin, you do the labor. Only unskilled labor need apply, as any skilled labor has coin. Even farmers will have plenty of coin from selling their food, and if not then they have the time to do labor for the government.
It's worse in the short term since it's a bigger change for the farmers, but it also forces them more into the market to sell their food at a higher price than their labor would be worth.
Or I could just second this.
Which can just be made paid jobs and covered by coin. Why make it harder for clerks?

Really, labour tax can juust be made subset of coin tax with paid government projects, it is wholly redundant.
The redundancy is the point, because it relieves the stress of maintaining sufficient coin supply in circulation.
If their participating in such projects why would the government just not pay them in coin instead?

Plus, digging a trench is no where near as intense or complex as building an aqueduct, so I'm not sure why you would consider both to be low level grunt work.
Actually, building an aqueduct requires a lot of low level grunt work, and some skilled work to paln and prepare the materials. The actual laying and earthmoving is a lot of unskilled labor.
 
Let us choose the best tax system now and change it when we need to later.
[X] [Law] Balance of interests
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
Reminder that this crisis started back then with the coin value of food changing seasonally and people using it to game the government by just swapping food for coin for luxuries in an infinite money loop by gaming exchange rates.



Reminder that this screws the lower class HARD. Farmers are middle class at present since they have time and wealth. Lower class are menial labor in cities.

[] [Tax] Coin only

Strongly favors the urban elite, and is the easiest for the clerks but puts an immense strain on our metal supply. We need enough coin for EVERYONE, or watch the value of a coin skyrocket.
The poor are forced to work shitty jobs for the coin to pay their taxes if the metal supply drops.

The biggest stress point here is that it's fragile to mine output and there's basically nothing you can do about that.

[] [Tax] Food or coin

Strongly favors the rural, strongly disfavors the urban poor.

The biggest stress point here is that it's fragile to environment and economy.

In times of bountiful harvest, people will take their coin to buy cheap grain to pay their taxes, which the government then sells cheaply for coin to trade for labor at a loss or face wastage from food spoilage.
In times of famine, people will pay the government in coin, which reduces the amount of grain the government has available to cope with crisis.

Functionally, a Coin/Food Tax establishes a floor value for food.
Food will never go cheaper than their tax value.

[] [Tax] Labour or coin

Strongly favors manual laborers, disfavors the wealthy elite.

The biggest stress point here is that it's complicated to make 'fair' or 'flexible', but it ensures a steady supply of unskilled labor for infrastructure and megaprojects.

Functionally, a Coin/Labor tax establishes a floor value for labor.
Your wages will never go cheaper than their tax value.


Literalist reading.
Granaries refer to the state granaries, remember?



Or I could just second this.

The redundancy is the point, because it relieves the stress of maintaining sufficient coin supply in circulation.

Actually, building an aqueduct requires a lot of low level grunt work, and some skilled work to paln and prepare the materials. The actual laying and earthmoving is a lot of unskilled labor.
It seems rather strange to call farmers a middle class, considering that they are around 90% of our population.

It also includes subsistence farmers, who make enough for themselves and their food tax but don't really have the means to sell their food to cities.

Also, with the currently wining vote being about community wellness and paying with food or coin, the urban poor likely (8% Max of our population) will be better looked out for by the state or adopted into a guild and given work to do for coin.

AWww, no love for Wildcat? :(
I currently consider upgrading our government to be more important, since it would improve everything we do.
 
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You know we're not going to be doing that any time during the Iron Age right? It was only until Industrialization that the population even stopped being majority-farming.
That's what we said about our flat tax, and look at where that's gotten us- elites who pay the same absolute as the poor, which means they can just keep on getting richer since it's much less relative value.
That's what we said when we got the public education option, and that was probably correct, but we haven't yet had an opportunity to do it ever since.
edit: to clarify, the flat tax thing was a major argument at the time but yeah, we tried to go for the flat+scaling and totally failed.
Also, we're already at only 90% farmers. That's on the scale of the classical age/early America.
The shift from farming population didn't happen irl till the invention of the combustion engine. The lowest it got prior to that was high 60%/low 70%
If you define short term as at least a thousand years in the future, then sure, it's short term.

The majority of our population will be farmers until we come up with machines that can essentially do all of the hard part of farming for us, which would require us to be astronomically more advanced than we currently are.

I would rather take the current optimal form of tax then take a more complex one that won't become necessary for a very, very long time.
I have to say it's hard to evaluate due to not knowing fully how our system works. That being said, Labour is a lot better for the civilians if things start going wrong with our farming. Most farmers will pay in coin if they have excess food anyway that they can sell. Those that can't means they don't have that much excess food anyway, likely being stuck on bad land or lacking knowledge on how to do PROPER YMARYN FARMING TECHNIQUES.

If someone wants to try something new that might not be profitable immediately or just experiences a bad harvest, food+coin means they don't have anything worth paying with. Everyone can pay with labor at any time, it's a good safety net. It thus encourages more risk-taking and thus more innovation, since you'll always be able to pay your taxes no matter how badly things go for you.

I'm talking on the timescale of 5-20 turns of it being more useful. Short term there will be more disruption as the poorer farmers are forced to either dedicate some more time to labor or go to town to sell their food, but once they get more used to that it won't be a significant burden on them. The increased innovation and social safety net from being able to always pay your taxes no matter how bad things get for you will start paying out by then.
disfavors the wealthy elite.
It should be noted that the wealthy elite will just pay in coin no matter what. I agree with the rest though.
 
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[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Hopefully we still manage to get a golden age following this because the combination of this admin improvement, the population explosion and a golden age would be amazing we might actually have the chance to complete more megaprojects and integrate our peripheries.
 
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