Paths of Civilization

ctulhuslp · Jul 7, 2017

Susano said:
People would rather burn the stab on the Lowlands questions.

Then why do they not vote for it?
Like, I would understand if they went for breaking secular power of priests and the law, but, like, they don't.

Sivantic said:
Because we don't believe in your fearmongering.

> Fearmonger about refugees totally breaking us
> Proceed to accuse me of fearmongering
Cool.

What part of "genocide does not mesh well with generosity and proto-humanism so we should support the latter if we care about it"is fearmongering?

Raichu1972 · Jul 7, 2017

tryrar said:
Oh for fucks sake would you knock it off with the genocide crap? Did you see us systematically rounding up every single man, woman, child, and cutting them down before burning the city? The update said specifically he let anyone who didn't want to burn with the city to grab what they could carry and GTFO, so fuck of with the genocide thing.

Let's not try and sugar coat it, it was genocide.

The good thing is that the Red Banner felt uncomfortable doing it, and it likely wouldn't have happened if we didn't have Ork King calling the shots.

So while we did commit genocide, and it did bring a stain upon our civilization, we did not become bolstered to commit more by the act.

tryrar · Jul 7, 2017

DragonParadox said:
That-3 stab was not the largest amount. So yeah... once.

.......at the same time we've taken more than the minimum twice in the last three generations, so your point is kinda moot.

notgreat · Jul 7, 2017

CA is in no danger of degrading. We've taken it a bunch while we were on Restoration, it's reinforced a lot right now.

As such I'm quite confused by the desire to do the 2nd tier option on the refugees paired with a Festival.
Net: +3-4 Econ, -2 Wealth, +2 Art, -0.5 Stability
If instead we did the minimum refugees and Expand Economy:
+6 Econ, -0.5 Stability

That seems a lot better, especially with the Tax Crisis bearing down upon us.

@Academia Nut
Did we get any forest slots for the WW province transfer?
Do we have any idea what the ??? from the Refugees could be (considering we've done it once before and were told "the effects may appear later")?

tryrar · Jul 7, 2017

Raichu1972 said:
Let's not try and sugar coat it, it was genocide.

The good thing is that the Red Banner felt uncomfortable doing it, and it likely wouldn't have happened if we didn't have Ork King calling the shots.

So while we did commit genocide, and it did bring a stain upon our civilization, we did not become bolstered to commit more by the act.

Only by the most literal definition of the word. In practical terms, we simply destroyed a city because we didn't have enough time to conquer it, and we allowed people to leave beforehand. We didn't force them to stay and burn.

fictionfan · Jul 7, 2017

tryrar said:
Oh for fucks sake would you knock it off with the genocide crap? Did you see us systematically rounding up every single man, woman, child, and cutting them down before burning the city? The update said specifically he let anyone who didn't want to burn with the city to grab what they could carry and GTFO, so fuck of with the genocide thing.

If had genocided them we wouldn't have to deal with our current pirest problems.

SpeckofStardust · Jul 7, 2017

tryrar said:
We didn't force them to stay and burn.

Only if they could pay us otherwise we forced them to burn.

PyroTechno · Jul 7, 2017

I feel like we're about to derail the thread into a "fearmongering" neener-neener argument. Maybe we should stop?

eternal-potato · Jul 7, 2017

[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk
[X] [React] Main Build Mills
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

Raichu1972 · Jul 7, 2017

tryrar said:
Only by the most literal definition of the word. In practical terms, we simply destroyed a city because we didn't have enough time to conquer it, and we allowed people to leave beforehand. We didn't force them to stay and burn.

Here is the relevant blurb from the update:

"Burn it all," Phygrif said after a moment. "We don't have time to do this proper. Begin smashing down buildings for firewood, the inhabitants can bring their valuables to us or surrender as captives if they want to escape, otherwise they can sit in their homes as flames take them. We'll smash open the inner wall and won't even loot, just burn. Metals will just melt so if we really want to we can come back later to pick up anything of value."

Everyone around him went wide eyed, but then they all nodded and the commands were issued to have the city a burnt out, dead husk by sunset the next day. Tens of thousands would die, but so would Xohyr and everything it stood for, and then the king could deal with those who had decided to take a swing at him.

If he had any regrets, it was the destruction of the flammable and fragile loot - all the prettiest women among the families of the nobles and priests chief among them.

They were not given the option to leave. It was either come with us as "refugees" or be burned in the city. The sack of Xohyr killed Tens of Thousands.
In the Bronze Age.
If that's not a genocide, than I'm not sure what is.

10ebbor10 · Jul 7, 2017

, the inhabitants can bring their valuables to us or surrender as captives if they want to escape

They could leave without valuables, or be taken as captives. So they were given the option to leave.

And a genocide is a sustained and deliberate campaign of extermination, not a military action aimed at bringing down a nation state. By your logic, the Allied campaign against Nazi Germany was also a genocide.

notgreat · Jul 7, 2017

BTW we're at 17 LTE. While not ideal, this is no longer a critical issue that must be dealt with. That extra province really helped.

Now we just have to deal with our actual econ value.

tryrar · Jul 7, 2017

At the same time, it was par for the course in the bronze age. I'm not seeing the issue here.

SpeckofStardust · Jul 7, 2017

The only good reasoning at this time to go for a higher refugee intake would be possibly aiming to cause other civs to collapse however the only one that might happen to this turn would be the highlanders.

Raichu1972 · Jul 7, 2017

tryrar said:
At the same time, it was par for the course in the bronze age. I'm not seeing the issue here.

We got a Legacy that gives us the Terrify action for sacking Xohyr.

We can literally scare people shitless by reputation alone because of what we did.

Destroying a True City is not at all typical for the Bronze Age.

SpeckofStardust · Jul 7, 2017

tryrar said:
At the same time, it was par for the course in the bronze age. I'm not seeing the issue here.

The thing is genocide is a par for course for bronze age, it does not change the fact that it was genocide, the whole purpose of the war was because the Xoh needed to die by our nations desire to do so.

Carrnage · Jul 7, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Spiritual Values (3/3)
Symphony
All have their part to play in this world, be it their interaction with each other or with the spirits. When all the parts of a group are moving in accord, the result is greater than the sum of the parts.
Pros: Bonus to collective action, spiritually and ecologically harmonious actions, and to concerted efforts
Cons: Disharmony is to be corrected, require casus belli to declare war

Honourable Death (Spiritual/Honour)
Death in service to the People and the spirits is the best death of all, removing the fear of death from the truly honourable.
Pros: Warriors fight harder, losses in battle are less disruptive
Cons: Seeking a good death, and the means to achieve it, becomes desirable

Love of Wisdom (Maxed development)
The People have learned not just to be aware of the world around them and to follow the patterns they see, but to also carefully test the patterns to see if they are actual patterns or just coincidence.
Pros: Significantly improved use of study actions and innovation rolls
Cons: Can question social foundations

the three values up for debate. Love of Wisdom is the safest i believe due to the debates themselves reinforcing it.

the two at real risk are Honourable Death and Symphony, while i wouldn't mind losing honourable death Losing Symphony would be a massive blow to our society so if we do the debates i believe we need to do something to reinforce Symphony.

Sivantic · Jul 7, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
> Fearmonger about refugees totally breaking us
> Proceed to accuse me of fearmongering
Cool.

Where was I fearmongering that refugees would break us?

We have a whole bunch of other things to do. Having to raise Stability again is not something I want to deal with.

Killer_Whale · Jul 7, 2017

[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

Raichu1972 · Jul 7, 2017

Carrnage said:
the three values up for debate. Love of Wisdom is the safest i believe due to the debates themselves reinforcing it.

the two at real risk are Honourable Death and Symphony, while i wouldn't mind losing honourable death Losing Symphony would be a massive blow to our society so if we do the debates i believe we need to do something to reinforce Symphony.

Why would debates cause us to lose Honorable Death or Symphony?

The Lowlander Gods seem big on Self-sacrifice and Community, so wouldn't those values just become reinforced?

VoidZero · Jul 7, 2017

Calling it genocide or massacre doesn't change what was done nor the narrative. A terrible act has occurred and we are the biggest contributor to that event.

Just because it might happen again doesn't mean we aren't affected by the first showing, likely a seed of doubt is planted.

Carrnage · Jul 7, 2017

Raichu1972 said:
Why would debates cause us to lose Honorable Death or Symphony?

Read the options.

Academia Nut said:
How to deal with foreign gods?
[] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)
[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[] [RA] The correct gods will make themselves known (-1 Religious Authority, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

DragonParadox · Jul 7, 2017

SpeckofStardust said:
The thing is genocide is a par for course for bronze age, it does not change the fact that it was genocide, the whole purpose of the war was because the Xoh needed to die by our nations desire to do so.

Yes, genocide is normal for the Bronze Age. Cosmopolitan Acceptance is not.

By doing the first we damaged the second.

DocMatoi · Jul 7, 2017

[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)

tryrar · Jul 7, 2017

DragonParadox said:
Yes, genocide is normal for the Bronze Age. Cosmopolitan Acceptance is not.

By doing the first we damaged the second.

.....where in the narrative have we had proof what you're claiming has happened? You see, this is my biggest objection to this genocide line of reasoning. You're claiming because we sacked an enemy city we're totally going to loose one of our most developed traits unless we go for max stability hits as penance. Please show proof such a line is needed.

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