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Paths of Civilization

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pbluekan said:
What is the actual difference between deploying the Red Banner from Valleyhome versus Hatvalley? Do they leave their families back in Valleyhome?
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Mostly it is a rehash of the "from the east the long way" or "from the west where they fight best" vote last turn. I think.
 
Tally, so people know where we stand.

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 2770 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 69259-69466]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
RB:
[1] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

Total No. of Voters: 1

Task: RA
[23][RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[5][RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)
[1][RA] The correct gods will make themselves known (-1 Religious Authority, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[1][RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential
Task: Low
[23][Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[19][Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[17][Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[12][Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[8][Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[8][Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)
[6][Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
Task: High
[10][High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[8][High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)
[5][High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)
[4][High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
Task: RB
[8][RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk
[6][RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[5][RB] Deploy north to guard against nomads
[3][RB] Remain at rest
[3][RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
Task: React
[16][React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[6][React] Main Expand Econ
[2][React] Main Build Mills
[2][React] Main Expand Forests
[1][React] Main Survey
Task: City
[16][City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[7][City] No
[1][City] Yes
Task: Refugee
[12][Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
[10][Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[3][Refugee] Let everyone know that your environment is stable (-3 Stab, potential further loss, +9-11 Econ, ???)
[1][Refugee] Encourage people to abandon their homes for you territory (-2 Stab, potential further loss, +6-8 Econ)
[1][Refugee] Bring in absolutely everyone you can (-4 Stab, potential further loss, +11-14 Econ, overcrowding, ???)
Total No. of Voters: 30


With only 30 votes so far, it is early days yet.


Glassware said:
Assistence most likely comes in the form of People, who will integrate with them. They will thus grow culturally closer to us.
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Okay, but my problem is sending four things over for only one concession. It leaves less for getting further concession out of them later.
 
Yeah if we are getting more opportunities then we should break the power of the preists while sending over assistance Nothing takes away RA then the possibility of wealth and tech.
 
Sivantic said:
Okay, but my problem is sending four things over for only one concession. It leaves less for getting further concession out of them later.
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There's nothing saying we can't keep doing these small injections of people every generation. If we can afford it, we should do it.

Think of it as the same number of concessions, just with added sweetening the deal.
 
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This tally by task is a bit bad for the multi-choice option. What happened to the tally that showed the total number of votes?
 
fictionfan said:
Does our high Mysticism and high Prestige help with the debates?
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They both help, yes.

pbluekan said:
  • What is the current opinion of the northern territories in regards to the south?
  • What is the actual difference between deploying the Red Banner from Valleyhome versus Hatvalley? Do they leave their families back in Valleyhome?
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North thinks the south is pretty cool, they helped out and they aren't hogging all the resources to themselves anymore.

The deployment zone affects the opposition they face and the amount of damage they can do. Deploying from the east going west is more open terrain into core territories, while from the west going east is more narrow passes into more peripheral territory.
 
Academia Nut said:
The deployment zone affects the opposition they face and the amount of damage they can do. Deploying from the east going west is more open terrain into core territories, while from the west going east is more narrow passes into more peripheral territory.
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Is it still similar tactical considerations to what Phygrif made in his assessment?
 
Academia Nut said:
The deployment zone affects the opposition they face and the amount of damage they can do. Deploying from the east going west is more open terrain into core territories, while from the west going east is more narrow passes into more peripheral territory.
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Soo

if we demand territory, strike from Hatvalley,

If we chose subjegate strike from Valleyhome?
 
How to deal with foreign gods?
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)


How to deal with the lowlanders? (Pick as many as you like)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[X] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

War Goals for Highlanders
[X] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)

Deploy the Red Banner
[X] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

Trouble's brewing, how to prepare?
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival

You're having trouble with the management of cities, make Sacred Forest a Free City?
[X] [City] No

Everyone else isn't coping with the weather well
[X] [Refugee] Let everyone know that your environment is stable (-3 Stab, potential further loss, +9-11 Econ, ???)
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
 
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Sivantic said:
Soo

if we demand territory, strike from Hatvalley,

If we chose subjegate strike from Valleyhome?
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Either should work for either I would think. It's probably best to look at this assessment Phygrif made:

Academia Nut said:
The east had a longer path to go from the nearest settlement to the Highlanders, but was also closer to the core territories of both kingdoms and there was somewhat more room to maneuver. The west would fight out of Hatvalley, which had a long trip from core territories but more local support, but would be going through narrow mountain passes into heavily fortified settlements, which was perhaps where the Red Banner would be best deployed. Then again they could possibly use a few years to rest and rearm after the fighting with the Xohyssiri.
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If we are asking the lowlands to reform their entire culture and religion then we should meet them halfway. However we should take it slwoly and have them show their loyalty.
Glassware said:
@Academia Nut, did our double main roads and new surveyors give us an idea of how many more main roads actions could be needed to fix the problem?
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Probably a few more double main trails then every other turn we should keep up maintenance on them.
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

We're so going to fumble that roll, aren't we?

[x] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley

Lol. We have like, zero consensus on the RB

[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X][Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
Well okay then. Let's see about this.

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How to deal with foreign gods? Do it the Ymaryn way.
[X] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

How to deal with the lowlanders? Do it right, before we lay down a generation of precedent.
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[X] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)

Fix the Minors, or make them break the vassalage in a way that doesn't proc Lord's Loyalty (probably). That sounds like a win-win right about now. With that thought in mind, help them out in case they stay loyal, but don't give them iron in case they revolt.

War Goals for Highlanders? We might be fighting the Minors soon...
[X] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)

Just let it go. We're too overextended to annex them anyway. This time.

Deploy the Red Banner? Down to our vassal, of course! How convenient for us to have a force in potential enemy territory.
[X] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

We probably want to suicide them into the ground later and form a new mercenary group to replace them. That neatly solves the issue of cultural drift, and if we do it right it won't necessarily establish a precedent.

Trouble's brewing, how to prepare? We NEED more Stability, we just have to eat the cost and hope the consequences aren't too bad.
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
(-2 Econ, +1 Stab, etc.)

I like Stability.

You're having trouble with the management of cities, make Sacred Forest a Free City?
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)

I don't like this, but we need to lower the administrative strain. We can always annex them back once the Palace and such are done.

Everyone else isn't coping with the weather well.
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

Well, it's raining taxes again here in Ymar (or whatever we call our lands), so have fun with the weather back where you came from. Losing the econ vampire bit would be a double-edged sword, so let's focus on the edge I like - consistently more Stability. Yay! Not to mention it isn't a surety anyway.

Economy 5 (-2 base + festival(-1) + city(-2) + refugees(+2) = 2 (or 3 if the Free City vote kicks in before city maintenance is counted)). Tap 0 Econ, come back up from refugees. It's the best we can do here, I think.

Stability 1 (lowlanders(anywhere from -1 to -3) + festival(+1) + refugees(-1?) = Stab (-2) - 1). In the absolute worst case scenario, we will not immediately explode. Considering this turn, I think that's a pretty good outcome.

Religious Authority 2 (debates(+2 OR -2) + lowlanders(+1?) = RA 0 - 5). Make or break time for the philosopher-priests. This is either going to be awesome or it is not. However, it's the Right Thing To Do, so I guess we're going to do it, huh?

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Yeah, I'll go with this.
 
Things I noticed in the update.
Academia Nut said:
Also, nomads were starting to move back into the north in significant numbers, so that was something to keep an eye on, especially since more than a few had been seen riding horses as part of herding their animals and thus probably had some sort of enhanced courier system like the People.
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Nomads are getting their horse on.

Academia Nut said:
A big part of it was that the local priests from the lowlands had all learned at the feet of the Xohyssiri and simply carried themselves differently and the People didn't quite know how to deal with them. The priests of the People argued and debated and tried to divine the secrets and intentions of the gods through careful study of the world. The priests of the lowlanders simply declared something to be so with such utter faith and conviction that it was hard to argue against them, and their certainty was definitely inspiring.
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This is probably a result of the fact that the Xoh had higher Religious Authority than us.
 
Okay changing my vote up a bit, notifying @ctulhuslp:


[X][RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

[X][Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X][Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X][Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)

[X][High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)

[X][RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley

[X][React] Main Improve Annual Festival

[X][City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)

[X][Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
This is a good set of winners atm. People aren't being stupid greedy, probably because of THE TERROR OF THE TAX!

[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Final adjusted values should be:
Economy 5 to 6
Martial 5
Wealth 8

Prestige 42
Art 8

Religious Authority 0 to 4
Stability -1 to +1
 
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