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Paths of Civilization

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Okay folks I am going to throw a vote out here and I want to debate it:


[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

[] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)

[] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)

[] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

[] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)

[] [React] Main Expand Economy

[] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)

This is meant to let us have good econ, prevents famine, at the risk of -2 Stability(almost hits the <= 0 badness if that is still in effect). Gets us out of the war and lightens admin load by turning it a true city into a free city.

I ain't sure though
 
[X] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)

Hell no, Love of Wisdom is the single biggest achievement we've had in this quest. Our priests are philosophers and scientists!

I won't risk the guys with all the downsides of religion bringing all of this crashing down.
 
@Academia Nut, if we skip on options for the lowlanders this mid-turn, how regularly will we have the chance to do them again assuming we don't end up going to war with them? If we can steadily quash their obnoxious practices one at a time over generations rather than all at once I would obviously prefer it.
 
maximillian said:
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)

[X] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)

[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome

[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival

[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)

[X] [Refugee] Let everyone know that your environment is stable (-3 Stab, potential further loss, +9-11 Econ, ???)
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So the reason behind the vote:
We need to send assistance to our vassals, for both our sake and thiers. And black soil would improve thier agricultural output without giving them much of a technological advantage.

The Highlanders need to be subjugated. We are at war with the swamp and soon to be against the nomads, we cannot afford an independent Highland to attack us when we are at our most vulnerable.

As for the red banner, we must win the war with the Highlanders ASAP. So we can safely shift to the other fronts.

The festival is necessary both because of the stability, and it's narrative effect. It will give us a chance to influence the lowlanders further via our people who are out to assist, and help with refugees.

The city is an unnecessary burden on our overburdened administration. It is better to grant it autonomy than kill our selves with buecracy.

As for the refugees, we desperately need Econ, all wars and the projects require a great deal of it, the Refugees would provide that. It would likely trigger something with CA seeing it has???. Most importantly, it would greatly weaken all our enemies, making the wars far shorter.




And lastly for the religious vote.


[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)


The reason behind this, is that our theology is damn primitive. The fact that we wiped the holy lands of the major lowlands religion, yet we cannot win a theological debate with a peasant, is damning proof of this. We need our priests to be engaged in theology for once, and this is the perfect opportunity to develop our own.
 
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Current Leader(s):


[17][RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

-[19][Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
-[16][Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
-[14][Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
-[9][Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

[10][High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)

[8][RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk
[6][RB] Deploy north to guard against nomads

[13][React] Main Improve Annual Festival

[12][City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)

[11][Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)

So we would be scraping by on order of ops not fucking us.
 
BungieONI said:
This is meant to let us have good econ, prevents famine, at the risk of -2 Stability(almost hits the <= 0 badness if that is still in effect). Gets us out of the war and lightens admin load by turning it a true city into a free city.

I ain't sure though
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I suggest changing the reaction action to improve festival to get us more stability.
 
@BungieONI I would still like to add iron and force them to do defensive wars only. That is three positives to two negatives for them. All of them very helpful on their poor land.

Why the Expand Econ on top of the second stage immigration? I don't think we would be that hard up on needing Economy.
 
@Academia Nut :

How would debating the priests in one task and cracking down on them on the other even work out? Could you even have a meaningful debate then? Would the crackdown weaken the lowlander side in the debate, or make them think this is all a set-up and hence feel more justified?
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
Right so posting this all at once so I don't clog up the thread with questions.

@Academia Nut

1. Between Lord's Loyalty, Vassal Lords, The Swamp People banging on their doors, our recent displays of military might and the lack of centralized authority in the LM exactly to what extent is the chance of war mitigated if we decided to enforce the spirit of the law? How would this change if we gave assistance, taught mills and black soil.
2. What are the Heaven's Hawk doing during this time?
3. Exactly how many years have the Red Banner had to rest and recoup their numbers? Given the influx of fresh blood has their been headway on purging the Lowland traits from them?
4. What states would we be vamping Econ from?
5. If we deployed the Red Banner would it be possible to force ceding of territory this turn?
6. Is the stability loss from enforcing our laws tied to going to war with the LM or is it independent?
7. While it doesn't seem enough to generate stability would our people be reassured if we managed to enforce our laws?
8. If she judges the situation to be too precarious will Rulwyna take action?
 
Fucking hell. Taxes. Again.

In more positive news, we have seen some signs that the North is coming back under our influence.

General
Diplomacy 8 [+2]
Economy 2 (+0+1) [-2]
Econ Expansion 11 [+2]
Martial 6 (+1) {7}
Wealth 8 [+2-1]

Stability
Stability 1 (confident)
Legitimacy 3 (max)
Remember the total here must be greater than 0.

Organizational
Centralization 4
Hierarchy 7
Religious Authority 2

Cultural
Art 6
Mysticism 15 [+1]
Prestige 40
How to deal with foreign gods?

So, I'm going to remind you guys that a potential shift in spiritual values could very well lose us Love of Wisdom. That isn't acceptable. Also, remember that the values that replace them will be coming from the lowland minors who had values similar to the Xohyr. We don't really want those spiritual values, I think.

[] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)

I think this is our only choice here. Our spiritual values are simply too crucial to how we do business. Love of Wisdom is goddamn science, and we worked our asses off for that. Symphony keeps our whole society working together, even if we rarely use the physical benefit of this ability, it likely keeps everything in working order. Honorable Death is a mixed bag sometimes, but it generally promotes self sacrifice in all things, which is a good thing.

[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

Have you ever debated with a member of an orthodox sect of a religion? It is impossible, and we were literally just told that our priests are having trouble debating these things with the foreign priests.

[] [RA] The correct gods will make themselves known (-1 Religious Authority, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

This just lets the whole thing fester. Great idea.
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How to deal with the lowlanders? (Pick as many as you like)
[] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)

I would love to do this, but all of the stability loss this turn is extremely concerning.

[] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)

This synergies well with the above option of stamping down.

[] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)

I would love to do this, but all of the stability loss this turn is extremely concerning.

[] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)

This is a fairly old, but extremely important technology. This solves two problems. One, it makes them less likely to wage war over new lands, as the ones they have will become far more fertile. Two, it solves some of the waste and disease problems these people are likely experiencing which will pull them a little further under our influence.

[] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)

Again, a useful technology like black soil, but it will free up more labor for them to wage war with. I generally find that to be a bad thing.

[] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)

Seriously? Fuck no.

[] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
_______________________________________________________________________________
War Goals for Highlanders
[] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)

Humiliate them. Be done with it.

[] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)

They were the aggressor. Demand some reparations. This isn't a terrible idea, and we could use the wealth with the current tax crisis. However, the risk of this not completing and leaving us tied up is not negligible.

[] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)

We could use the centralization room and the extra wealth and econ. However, we are already straining at the edges here, and we cannot afford to have to deal with the highlander war for another action.

[] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)

We straight up cannot afford this. We have enough trouble with the lowlanders as a vassal.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Deploy the Red Banner

This option directly relates to the above. Depending on what we pick here, it will make the above options far easier. This will also affect our religion option. If they are left in Valleyhome it will likely make the religion option far more difficult.

[] [RB] Remain at rest
[] [RB] Deploy north to guard against nomads
[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome

Send some help against the highlanders. This will likely decrease the chance of the Highlander war extending. However, the warriors will still mostly be in Valleyhome and so the religious change will be that much harder with them around.

[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley

Send some help against the highlanders. This will likely decrease the chance of the Highlander war extending by a significant margin. This may also make the religious problems in valleyhome easier; however, the problem may not be completely stamped out.

[] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

This is the only option I feel we cannot take. We have seen enough trouble with the red banner picking up values from the southeast.
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Trouble's brewing, how to prepare?

The option we pick here is dependent on what we have above. I'm leaning towards the festival option for the purposes of solidifying cultural practices and increasing stability.

[] [React] Main Expand Econ
[] [React] Main Build Mills
[] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[] [React] Main Expand Forests
[] [React] Main Survey
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You're having trouble with the management of cities, make Sacred Forest a Free City?

This has to happen. Sadly. We need the centralization cap increased desperately if we even want to have a chance at improving roads again or using an Enforce Justice.

[] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[] [City] No
_______________________________________________________________________________
Everyone else isn't coping with the weather well

FUCKING STABILITY LOSSES AAAAAGGGGGH



Essentially this depends on what we have picked above, as we may need the econ but may not be able to afford the stability.

[] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
[] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[] [Refugee] Encourage people to abandon their homes for you territory (-2 Stab, potential further loss, +6-8 Econ)
[] [Refugee] Let everyone know that your environment is stable (-3 Stab, potential further loss, +9-11 Econ, ???)
[] [Refugee] Bring in absolutely everyone you can (-4 Stab, potential further loss, +11-14 Econ, overcrowding, ???)
_______________________________________________________________________________

So. My picks.
[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
This is the hard choice.
[] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
Teaching this will engender goodwill through decreases in waste and disease as well as increase the potency of the land. This should decrease their need to wage war for more/better land.
[] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
This is not a crucial tech, and giving them this will further engender goodwill and decrease their need for slaves, making the next choice far easier.
[] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
Everything needs to happen in steps and this is the first one I think. I would love to get rid of their priests, and it would likely synergize well with the first pick. However, I don't think we can afford the stability loss. Forcing them to follow the spirit of the law will eventually mold their culture towards a facsimile of ours. This will make our religion far easier to accept.
[] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
We need the wealth and a little abject humiliation should keep them from coming back for more.
[] [RB] Remain at rest
I would love to send them out, but frankly, if we are stomping out religious problems, we should probably have them nearby to get that done.
[] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
Need that stability bad. Solidifying cultural practices should certainly help with our religious problems as well.
[] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
I don't want this to happen but we desperately need the breathing room for centralization, especially when we consider that low centralization will cause further collapse in the Legitimacy/Stability balance.
[] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
We are having cultural shift issues. Taking in large numbers of strange people certainly wont help this.

Stat changes as a result of this:
Econ:
5(+0+1) [-2]= 4-2+2-2=2[-1]
Econ Exp:
11 [+2]=13+4-2-1=14[+1]
Wealth:
8 [+2-1]=9+2=12[-2 to 4]
Stability:
1-1+1=1
Centralization:
4-1=3 With a red level of 6

[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Remain at rest
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
 
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BungieONI said:
You might want to be careful.

I am uncertain of my vote and may be shifting stuff to what Candesce did.
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Ok. Copypasting longer votes from the phone is just a pain.
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)

[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)

[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)

[X] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)

[X] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival

[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)

I would prefer -2.5 refugees vote because Hail CA, but the position is somewhat precarious.
OTOH, hmm.

@Academia Nut , would accepting more refugees give more bragging rights to our priests due to our gods clearly favouring us because look at our stable weather?
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

[] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)

[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)

[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)

[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)

[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

[X] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)

[X] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)

[X] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)

[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)

[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
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[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)


[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)

[X] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)

[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome

[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival

[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)

[X] [Refugee] Let everyone know that your environment is stable (-3 Stab, potential further loss, +9-11 Econ, ???)

Fuck it fortune favours the bold and the goats.
 
Glassware said:
I'm considering, but honestly -2 stability in exchange for +2 religious authority sounds pretty good to me, it'd shoot us back up to leading in Pilgrimage for one thing.
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If you're going to take a hard stab hit, you might as well at least make it the one that gives us a boatload of econ.


[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)

I like religious debates. Even in the midst of disaster. This is what our priests have been training for for hundreds of years.

[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Remain at rest
[X] [React] Main Expand Econ
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)

[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

We really need some econ up ins to Free City up. I voted against it last time because I wanted a trade post, but obviously we won't manage that for hundreds of years. at this rate.

​
 
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Sivantic said:
@BungieONI I would still like to add iron and force them to do defensive wars only. That is three positives to two negatives for them. All of them very helpful on their poor land.

Why the Expand Econ on top of the second stage immigration? I don't think we would be that hard up on needing Economy.
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We have 2 Economy. Looking at it it is not really necessary but it helps. Bouncing near 1 Econ is unsafe to say the least.


Bleh need to think.

pbluekan said:
So, I'm going to remind you guys that a potential shift in spiritual values could very well lose us Love of Wisdom. That isn't acceptable. Also, remember that the values that replace them will be coming from the lowland minors who had values similar to the Xohyr. We don't really want those spiritual values, I think.
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LoW is not at really much risk see here:

Academia Nut said:
There is at least some risk to the value with all the options, with variation on how much risk. It's not much, but it is present.
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I take that to mean that only the last option has a very appreciable risk of losing it. Also stamping out a dissenting opinion sounds very not LoW doesn't it?
 
@Academia Nut

On a scale of pinch of salt in your coffee and salt raining from sky, how panicked are you at the current events?

It's all dices' fault isn't it?
 
Candesce said:
What makes the 2-3 extra econ worth a stability when we're this near breaking?

Especially when we're still likely to be getting refugees in upcoming turns?
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Our people repenting for the fucking genocide. *Especially* during the war, double especially with the vassal trying to popularize assholishness.

And if we get more refugees, we will always have some totally important reason to take as little as possible, because the situation is unlikely to improve soon.
 
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