Sorry, that wasn't quite what I meant, my bad: The setup of who's owning what land shifts around, and presumably doesn't change back after the not-really-owners die, instead being taken over by someone else. Whereas in the case of Wildcat Prospecting, after the original prospectors die, there's no long-term effects - you aren't paying anyone extra money (and thus perpetuating an income inequality).
My understanding of DL, just to be completely clear:

Someone comes to the King and says "I can make this plot of land X more efficient if I administrate it".
King considers and says "Okay! You do that and in return you specifically pay me more taxes and get to keep a small extra fraction yourself for your hard work."

There is a significant difference between "administrates" and "owns" in my mind. The King still owns the land in question, technically it's communally owned. But there is this person who administrates it more directly to easy Admin burden.


The lack of a public education system means that it's tied to that one particular family. Given our practices of choosing the competent heir instead of the oldest son, it's basically in that family forever.

Basically, de-facto land ownership.
It could do this. It is not a certainty because inside that plot of land merit still holds value and the family in control can be supplanted.

I will also point out we already have de facto land controllers in our chief families for the reason you point out.

It may well be, on the other end of the scale, that whoever comes to the King with this proposal may well not be from the chief family of their area.

E: I mean really to me it looks like a codified variation of what we already do.
 
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I wonder if we will ever get a heroic engineer King? Or does that fail under administration?
 
I wonder if we will ever get a heroic engineer King? Or does that fail under administration?
*raises finger*

Uh.

Hm I mean after a fashion that happened under Hewthyun "I will crit these Crow damned Admin Rolls".

Most likely though yes it is a combo of Admin and Diplo that would do it with a sprinkle of Mysticsim.
 
[X] [Main] Megaproject-Sacred Forest Renewal
[X] [Main] Megaproject-Sacred Forest Renewal x2
[X] [Secondary]War Mission-Northern Nomads
[X] Red Banner Company - Northern Nomads
[X][Divine] Speak against it (-1 Religious Authority, potential trouble for heir)
You need to re-word your forest vote. The majority wording is "[Main]Sacred Forest Renewal" and "[Main]Sacred Forest Renewal x2". Currently your vote is being counted separately.

But you're with the clear majority anyway :)
 
No, I'm pretty sure that individual lands are not being assigned to anyone. Note the wording when this option was brought to Rulwyna:

"There were also some lower level chiefs with ambitions to rework local land management efforts, but Rulwyna wasn't sure about them."

These are chiefs wanting to rework how a bunch of lands are managed. It's not individual land grants. Think of it like a real estate agent being given a management portfolio. As long as they are delivering value, they'll probably stay hired, but at no point do they own anything.

ETA If properly done, this could actually be an important path toward making our government more scalable. Effective delegation is a must. I would have voted for it last time, except I don't want to without a corresponding Enforce Justice to make sure the managers keep in line.
I asked about it a while ago.
would it be either de facto hereditary or de jure hereditary?
De facto but not de jure.
 
It is however essentially giving certain families their own personal estate.
Its not however. The land is owned by the People, and the proceeds go to the people. The families will get a performance bonus for improving administration above baseline quotas, and they will suffer legal penalties for underperforming or other malicious practices upon the land.
Did we ever find out why the provinces choose Enforce Justice exclusively and never Restoration Of Order?
-Provinces will never take actions which cost Stability or Legitimacy.
-Provinces will never risk redlining Centralization
-Provinces will never take 'Royal' actions where the option describes royal authority(Proclaim Glory, Salt Gift, Distribute Land)
Didn't we get a WOG that WP meant the people who did the prospecting just got paid some more, rather than having any actual claim of ownership? I wasn't nearly so worried about a single generation of increased income as I was about the beginnings of a landed nobility.

If that's not the case... well I'd care less, but I'd still prefer WP since I care much more about long-term resource gains than a one-off boost to Wealth (even ignoring all the other benefits, boosting trade good production often leads to more long-term wealth anyway.)
This is what happens with Distribute Land as well.
Sorry, that wasn't quite what I meant, my bad: The setup of who's owning what land shifts around, and presumably doesn't change back after the not-really-owners die, instead being taken over by someone else. Whereas in the case of Wildcat Prospecting, after the original prospectors die, there's no long-term effects - you aren't paying anyone extra money (and thus perpetuating an income inequality).
No, that applies to BOTH.
Private administrators are assigned for land or mines.
They will manage said resource in their own time, producing taxes or resources as per their proposal.
After they die, the best administrator for the land or mines will be assigned to the land or mines.
Said best administrator is usually the children of the original administrator, who are familiar with the land and it's usage.
The new administrator will continue to gain the performance bonus as long as they maintain output, or be replaced if their management falls short or is against the law, they have no legal recourse against state reclaiming.
I don't think it is. My understanding is that it's more like a landlord hiring a property manager.

No-one is being given private ownership, but some people are being given extra management rights - at an area level, I gather, not individual tracts of land - in order for them to improve efficiency, and they're supposed to give the central government a share of the improvements.
This yeah
My understanding of DL, just to be completely clear:

Someone comes to the King and says "I can make this plot of land X more efficient if I administrate it".
King considers and says "Okay! You do that and in return you specifically pay me more taxes and get to keep a small extra fraction yourself for your hard work."

There is a significant difference between "administrates" and "owns" in my mind. The King still owns the land in question, technically it's communally owned. But there is this person who administrates it more directly to easy Admin burden.



It could do this. It is not a certainty because inside that plot of land merit still holds value and the family in control can be supplanted.

I will also point out we already have de facto land controllers in our chief families for the reason you point out.

It may well be, on the other end of the scale, that whoever comes to the King with this proposal may well not be from the chief family of their area.
And this too.

The model is clear, it opens up room for corruption and abuse, because the process of choosing the administrator invariably picks from the best conneccted who can make the best sales pitch that they know what they are doing.
 
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My understanding of DL, just to be completely clear:

Someone comes to the King and says "I can make this plot of land X more efficient if I administrate it".
King considers and says "Okay! You do that and in return you specifically pay me more taxes and get to keep a small extra fraction yourself for your hard work."

There is a significant difference between "administrates" and "owns" in my mind. The King still owns the land in question, technically it's communally owned. But there is this person who administrates it more directly to easy Admin burden.
Sure, but in order to administrate it you need extra rights and powers. And presumably when this person dies, instead of going back to the old system a replacement is hired - who also needs extra rights and powers. Usually this replacement will be in the family, because the son will have been trained and will be the most natural choice - and so, the cycle starts and continues.

Whereas with Wildcat Prospecting, the prospectors get an increased income as a reward for their hard work, and when they die that's it.


No, that applies to BOTH.
Private administrators are assigned for land or mines.
They will manage said resource in their own time, producing taxes or resources as per their proposal.
After they die, the best administrator for the land or mines will be assigned to the land or mines.
Said best administrator is usually the children of the original administrator, who are familiar with the land and it's usage.
The new administrator will continue to gain the performance bonus as long as they maintain output, or be replaced if their management falls short or is against the law, they have no legal recourse against state reclaiming.
But Wildcat prospecting isn't about management, it's about setting up and opening the mines in the first place.

Wildcat Prospecting
By letting those who locate mineral deposits develop them and claim the profit, new mines can be rapidly developed at the cost of some centralized control
Pros: Resources discovered in survey actions can be developed in the mid-turn in addition to other reaction actions
Cons: Reactive development costs Centralization

They aren't getting paid to run the mines, they're getting paid for having set them up in the first place. The administrative savings don't come from easier management after they're set up, but by not having to administrate the initial development.
 
[X][Main] Sacred Forest Renewal
[X][Main] Sacred Forest Renewal x2
[X][Secondary]War Mission-Northern Nomads
[X] Red Banner Company - Northern Nomads
[X][Divine] Speak against it (-1 Religious Authority, potential trouble for heir)
 
[X][Main] Sacred Forest Renewal
[X][Main] Sacred Forest Renewal x2
[X][Secondary] War Mission-Northern Nomads
[X] Red Banner Company - Northern Nomads
[X][Kick] Sacred Forest Renewal
[X][Divine]Speak up for the idea (+1 Religious Authority, other effects)

Deciding on a war mission instead of changing policies. I think we want to integrate the Stallion Tribes ASAP. This will hopefully make them more favorable.
 
Usually this replacement will be in the family, because the son will have been trained and will be the most natural choice - and so, the cycle starts and continues.

Whereas with Wildcat Prospecting, the prospectors get an increased income as a reward for their hard work, and when they die that's it.
To be kinda frank (since this discussion is quite old for me) I'm gonna summarize my position and say that this first thing is not a problem for me personally. Mostly because it is the best we can do till education improves and still stay meritocratic, and we are already doing a form of it in our provinces and chiefs.

Also, let's take a second to think about WC and specifically the implications of rapidly developing a mine which is not a simple endeavor for us.

So Ymaryn freeperson comes to the king and says "I found this ore source and I can develop it quickly, but I need you to give me some leeway rights and signing off."
KIng looks at it and says yes "Do this and give me most of the proceeds, you get a little extra for hard work."

Ymaryn freeperson develops the mine to their vision. Okay then who is the best person to run the thing? The person who just built it is an obvious answer because they know the ins and outs of how this particular mine needs to function best.

So basically it's implied instead of explicit. DL and WC are very similar actions, all that is different is what is being messed with.

I prefer WC to. Mostly because mines are really damn useful, more so than pure land in my estimation.
 
The lack of a public education system means that it's tied to that one particular family. Given our practices of choosing the competent heir instead of the oldest son, it's basically in that family forever.

Basically, de-facto land ownership.

It only stays within the family as long as they produce a competent heir though.
Hereditary succession really isnt that bad as long as there is a functioning mechanism to prevent incompetent people from inheriting.
 
Its not however. The land is owned by the People, and the proceeds go to the people. The families will get a performance bonus for improving administration above baseline quotas, and they will suffer legal penalties for underperforming or other malicious practices upon the land.
Have you forgotten what primed the tax crisis generations back? How those who worked the land for decades believed that it should become de jure hereditary? won't those same arguments return with a vengeance if we hand over more powers to de facto herditary titles?
 
To be kinda frank (since this discussion is quite old for me) I'm gonna summarize my position and say that this first thing is not a problem for me personally. Mostly because it is the best we can do till education improves and still stay meritocratic, and we are already doing a form of it in our provinces and chiefs.

Also, let's take a second to think about WC and specifically the implications of rapidly developing a mine which is not a simple endeavor for us.

So Ymaryn freeperson comes to the king and says "I found this ore source and I can develop it quickly, but I need you to give me some leeway rights and signing off."
KIng looks at it and says yes "Do this and give me most of the proceeds, you get a little extra for hard work."

Ymaryn freeperson develops the mine to their vision. Okay then who is the best person to run the thing? The person who just built it is an obvious answer because they know the ins and outs of how this particular mine needs to function best.

So basically it's implied instead of explicit. DL and WC are very similar actions, all that is different is what is being messed with.

I prefer WC to. Mostly because mines are really damn useful, more so than pure land in my estimation.
Yes, basically this.

Mine or land, once you assign an administrator, generally the best person to continue administrating it is the child of the previous administrator, who is raised and taught how to manage it, what quirks, it has, etc, and this will continue to be true until even the modern era(where, surprise, many CEOs and top tier politicians/executives come from similar backgrounds)
The provinces did a Proclaim Glory in the 'Legitimate effort' turn so I'm not so sure about this.
It's under Heroic Admin assuming direct control, so a few oddities applied.
Have you forgotten what primed the tax crisis generations back? How those who worked the land for decades believed that it should become de jure hereditary? won't those same arguments return with a vengeance if we hand over more powers to de facto herditary titles?

Yes, they will return, we'll quell them like we did back then.
The road infrastructure is not a nice extra, but ESSENTIAL to the health of a longstanding nation. It is better to have to beat "lets move de facto to de jure" off than to just set things up so that the country tears apart from lack of internal connectivity.
 
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Have you forgotten what primed the tax crisis generations back? How those who worked the land for decades believed that it should become de jure hereditary? won't those same arguments return with a vengeance if we hand over more powers to de facto herditary titles?

It was the peasants being downtrodden by chiefs higher up that demanded de jure hereditary.
 
Have you forgotten what primed the tax crisis generations back? How those who worked the land for decades believed that it should become de jure hereditary? won't those same arguments return with a vengeance if we hand over more powers to de facto herditary titles?
The chiefs were abusing their power to assign land to help their allies look good at other people's expense.

It was very clearly motivated by a desire to stop corruption, not greed.
 
Which I don't think is what would be happening here, since some of the efficiency claimants that might benefit from this could well be peasants.

Could well be. If chiefs want to make more money, they have to manage their land better. Which might mean paying peasants higher wages.

My chief concern is preserving geographical mobility and preventing the subchiefs from accumulating too much power.
 
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