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Paths of Civilization

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Karugus said:
We'll have accelerants, not explosives.

As for religious authority, is religion a major issue in terms of foreign policy right now? Not really. I mean, more pilgrimage is nice but not italic emphasizing religious authority nice- and I should know, I'm the king of italic emphasis.

My problem isn't the option itself, it's why the people are going after the option and the utter failure to consider the narrative consequences of it.
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Religious authority is a mystery box. I would prefer to see it expanded upon by pushing for options more likely to reward us with it. At the very least, it would make pilgrimage international and a viable trade good, increasing our wealth, possibly even at the expense of others.

All I'm hearing is that you have a problem with people's opinions. The only thing I can say to that is tough shit, man. Opinions will be. In this particular case, your priorities don't win, and that's all. The narrative consequences of her being a soldier are no more terrible than the narrative consequences of her standing on display and going 'viola, fire' while the stage becomes an inferno.
 
Reading the thread was just cringeworthy to me. Gunpowder ... seriously? Do you guys think that the only exothermic chemical reaction is that, much less that the incarnation of gunpowder would be the same as it was when being developed? Urgh, it just reaks of those who try to uptech without understanding such fundamental things. Even on the off chance it would be gunpowder anyway, so what? It has negligible uses until centuries of development of it and the creation of new tactics, and even then, there are far better alternatives given the opportunity cost. We don't need gunpowder, we need land and population as we currently already have technological advantages so they should be exploited.

[X] Begin diplomacy with the Highlanders

Academia Nut has repeatedly been trying to hit the players over the head with, maybe, just maybe you should try and get in on the lowlands before it consolidates. And every time the option has presented itself, it's been ignored. At this point if it's ignored I honestly just want him to take of the kiddies gloves and have the Xohyssiri start smashing faces as they honestly should have done already given they control so much fertile land, that's adjacent to rivers, that are easily exploited for irrigation as it honestly defies believe other than authorial fiat that the Ymrayn still have comparable population. The sheer land disparity is unreal and the map doesn't even show the full extent of the Xohyssiri holdings, as they also spread east into not-Persia which was itself a rather fertile land.

Take the option to engage in diplomacy with the Highlanders and perhaps we can unlock those new subsidiary states that he mentioned we should have unlocked last turn, or that we could unlock with a main action.
 
Lolwyna might have blown up a still instead of gunpowder. That would still give us alcohol, a nice luxury trade good, a disinfectant and useful for further alchemical discoveries.
 
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Karugus said:
We'll have accelerants, not explosives.

As for religious authority, is religion a major issue in terms of foreign policy right now? Not really. I mean, more pilgrimage is nice but not italic emphasizing religious authority nice- and I should know, I'm the king of italic emphasis.

My problem isn't the option itself, it's why the people are going after the option and the utter failure to consider the narrative consequences of it.
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What evidence do you have that proves it's accelerants? You stating it as fact does not count as supporting evidence.
 
Neptune said:
Academia Nut has repeatedly been trying to hit the players over the head with, maybe, just maybe you should try and get in on the lowlands before it consolidates. And every time the option has presented itself, it's been ignored. At this point if it's ignored I honestly just want him to take of the kiddies gloves and have the Xohyssiri start smashing faces as they honestly should have done already given they control so much fertile land, that's adjacent to rivers, that are easily exploited for irrigation as it honestly defies believe other than authorial fiat that the Ymrayn still have comparable population. The sheer land disparity is unreal and the map doesn't even show the full extent of the Xohyssiri holdings, as they also spread east into not-Persia which was itself a rather fertile land.
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So, you want to put the hand in the meatgrinder, while being stabbed in the back (North)?
 
maximillian said:
Only constant large scale war leads to professional armies, in the olden Times such armies were such an economic sinkhole that they had to be used and abused constantly to even remotely justify the costs.

Good luck getting the thread to go declare an unceasing war for the conquest of everything.
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Constant large scale war...

*looks at the steppes and the Lowlands which we will likely be dragged into sooner or later*

Economy...

*looks at the trade we have going as well as Valleyhome and probably Sacred Forest in the future*

We are already in the middle of a near constant warzone and are in the top 3 economies in the region, the economic problem of a professional army would then be on the scale we are building it. Even a small one would serve as a core to an army of conscripts, making our military that much more efficient. Or what? Do you all think the Xohyr empire or the Hats are going to leave us alone or we aren't going to have nomads being nomads?
 
Powerofmind said:
Religious authority is a mystery box. I would prefer to see it expanded upon by pushing for options more likely to reward us with it. At the very least, it would make pilgrimage international and a viable trade good, increasing our wealth, possibly even at the expense of others.
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It would also increase our cultural and religious influence on our neighbours. Should we get that to dominant and keep it there for some time our diplomacy will get more effective. Depending on how things go and how long we can keep up our dominance there, we might even see at least some cultural assimilation. Though that would take a lot of steady effort and probably a golden age.
 
Neptune said:
Reading the thread was just cringeworthy to me. Gunpowder ... seriously? Do you guys think that the only exothermic chemical reaction is that, much less that the incarnation of gunpowder would be the same as it was when being developed? Urgh, it just reaks of those who try to uptech without understanding such fundamental things. Even on the off chance it would be gunpowder anyway, so what? It has negligible uses until centuries of development of it and the creation of new tactics, and even then, there are far better alternatives given the opportunity cost. We don't need gunpowder, we need land and population as we currently already have technological advantages so they should be exploited.

[X] Begin diplomacy with the Highlanders

Academia Nut has repeatedly been trying to hit the players over the head with, maybe, just maybe you should try and get in on the lowlands before it consolidates. And every time the option has presented itself, it's been ignored. At this point if it's ignored I honestly just want him to take of the kiddies gloves and have the Xohyssiri start smashing faces as they honestly should have done already given they control so much fertile land, that's adjacent to rivers, that are easily exploited for irrigation as it honestly defies believe other than authorial fiat that the Ymrayn still have comparable population. The sheer land disparity is unreal and the map doesn't even show the full extent of the Xohyssiri holdings, as they also spread east into not-Persia which was itself a rather fertile land.

Take the option to engage in diplomacy with the Highlanders and perhaps we can unlock those new subsidiary states that he mentioned we should have unlocked last turn, or that we could unlock with a main action.
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I'll tell you what I told Karagus. The thread is optimistically considering gunpowder. The thread has also optimistically considered semaphor communication towers before we'd even built our first wall. The thread has also optimistically hoped for dust explosions as a viable combat tool despite it being literally impossible for us to create the necessary conditions for such a thing (and have brought it up again anyway now, despite nothing much having changed in that department).

Replaying Karagus' high and mighty attitude about how 'stupid' the thread is being doesn't win you any arguments, or any allies. We have already pointed out that regardless of what it is, massive conflagerations or combustions on demand are mystically cool, and would be rewarding mystically to understand clearly. Just because the first thought you have (gunpowder does guns!) isn't possible, doesn't mean a more creative use isn't.

AN has been pointing out when asked that the lowlands are powerful, and that ensuring they can't consolidate is important. They are not at risk of consolidating. Diplomacy does not prevent them from consolidating. The Xoh aren't smashing everything because they are A SINGLE CITY with a bunch of nominally obedient vassals descended from nomads that are also fighting against their secondary empire religion internally, while bordering the nomads further east than us, during a war with the HK, who also control a chunk of the lowlands. It's specifically the ability to consolidate during peacetime that turns the lowlands in the cash cow AN has often called it, and complaining that AN should punish us for cleverly avoiding that death trap without letting it become a death snowball because of 'authorial fiat' just makes you look arrogant and spiteful.
Arbit said:
Lolwyna might have blown up still instead of gunpowder. That would still give us alcohol, a nice luxury trade good, a disinfectant and useful for further alchemical discoveries.
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Could very well have been exceptionally pure alcohol. Fits with the 'hot' and 'dry' fire debate, at least.
 
pbluekan said:
Those narrative consequences? They're waaay less worse than for the alternative options. IMO, at least.
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Big chunk of my reasoning:
[] Forge a new path of war

Furthers militarization to have a SECOND King in a row get the position by being really good at war. That way leads to the end of the Roman Republic if unchecked, as being a successful general is now a Traditional route to kingship and so you'd see more conquest pushes from .

Most likely to actually make her King, but as we've established previously, a single Hero King isn't worth setting a bad precedent. They only last 2-3 turns and we roll one every 5-8 turns or so, ignoring the current freakish streak of three heroes on our side at the same time.

Not an issue if you do prefer warrior nobility to be a bigger role however. But we've been chewing them up with martial superiority overall already. Iron warriors are monsters in this terrain

[] Begin diplomacy with the Highlanders

Seducing a foreign ruler in order to get foreign intervention in domestic politics is one of those particularly dumb ideas that hopefully nobody is going for.

Never ends well, since the other party is hardly going to STOP encroaching on your politics if you give them a way in.

Most likely to generate social strife.

[] Run away to the north

Gift wrap Horse Riding to Nomads. Pick this if you want to see the world burn.

[] Attempt to finish her mother's work

Pushes further along the Best of the Best trait as a route to power. Harnessing the powers of the gods and all that if she succeeds.

Does not necessarily make her King unless very successful, but as Rulwyna said herself, this is the safest option for the People, and our people DO consider success as endorsement for rule.

So basically the big thing it does is that it doesn't set some undesirable precedent, with the possibility of scoring another tech leap by Double Mystic Hero action as a nice bonus.

Novelty Steam Power, after all, was around since the Bronze age.
 
RulerOfNothing said:
[X] Begin diplomacy with the Highlanders
Also @Academia Nut, now that we have the Wealth stat, how does that affect the overflow mechanics?
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Economy>Wealth>Diplomacy>Same as before

Economy leads more naturally into Wealth than New!Diplo (extra bodies do luxury and quality goods work first), since Wealth is the stuff that Old!Diplo also represented, which can still naturally be leveraged into diplo proper.
 
veekie said:
Seducing a foreign ruler in order to get foreign intervention in domestic politics is one of those particularly dumb ideas that hopefully nobody is going for.

Never ends well, since the other party is hardly going to STOP encroaching on your politics if you give them a way in.

Most likely to generate social strife.
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Really now, are you forgetting that that kind of interference is a two way street? For that matter if we have devolved to doomsaying here, let me throw my hat into the ring:

Further experimenting with explosive things is likely to blow up our young non-mystically trained hero. This is turn could lead to the debilitating belief that women are terrible at the higher mysteries and do naught but bring curses on their heads and harm those around them.
 
Cathon Grimeye said:
Constant large scale war...

*looks at the steppes and the Lowlands which we will likely be dragged into sooner or later*

Economy...

*looks at the trade we have going as well as Valleyhome and probably Sacred Forest in the future*

We are already in the middle of a near constant warzone and are in the top 3 economies in the region, the economic problem of a professional army would then be on the scale we are building it. Even a small one would serve as a core to an army of conscripts, making our military that much more efficient. Or what? Do you all think the Xohyr empire or the Hats are going to leave us alone or we aren't going to have nomads being nomads?
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Oh no no, am not advocating pacifism or sitting on our ass.
But I think landed nobility is a much cheaper and culturaly beneficial method of defence and expansion. It is also a precursor to mercenary armies which where the forefathers of standing armies.

As for economy, the early standing armies consumed between a third to half or even two thirds of all tax revenues, so no matter how rich you are they were monstrously expensive, as for warfare our fights against the nomads aren't something standing armies did or were developed to do. They were for pitched battles, sieges and marching. Wars of mounted mobility were always the domain of independent/irregular hired forces (Cossacks, tributary tribes, hussars and so on)

I wouldn't mind standing armies, but they are not something that just happens, we need to set the stage for them, culturaly, economicaly and administratively
 
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Karugus said:
Cool. Tell me when we figure out the process to enrich uranium before we can make electricity. That's a tech we need to add to the list too! I mean, eventually we can make bombs even better than gunpowder with it! That should make it, like, twice as valuable right?

I don't give a fuck if it takes 5 centuries to pay out, that's 5 centuries we could have had more hatter turf, or levereaged diplomacy to better our position.

telling someone that you're aware you're buying fools gold for the price of the real thing and hence they were wrong to rant and rave at your decision making skills is a pretty stupid fucking argument to say the least.
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Oh, a strawman argument! I can do that too!
Tell me when you decide to stop increasing the amount of outdated plunder, that is useful now but doesn't progress us forwards on the tech tree. I mean. Why get combustion engines, when we already have steam engines? We can use it totaly fine for the next thousand years or so! Our tanks will be fine! The crew will be alright with the heat. What could possibly go wrong? Yolo! Right?

You want to play down in the dirt, while others outpace us, is a much worse argument.

Also, just what is that real price you are speaking of and the fools gold part is ridiculously wrong too? I'm seriously not seeing it.
 
The problem with begining diplomacy with the highlanders is that from what it sounds like it's not our nation negotiating with theirs it's our hero trying to get one of their princes to interfere with an internal matter which sounds like a disaster in the making.
 
DragonParadox said:
Really now, are you forgetting that that kind of interference is a two way street? For that matter if we have devolved to doomsaying here, let me throw my hat into the ring:

Further experimenting with explosive things is likely to blow up our young non-mystically trained hero. This is turn could lead to the debilitating belief that women are terrible at the higher mysteries and do naught but bring curses on their heads and harm those around them.
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I SPECIFICALLY recognize the danger of a two way relationship, because it's more likely to screw us than to help us long term. Foreign intervention in ascending a ruler historically only ends in one of the following:
-Local uprising against foreign intervention, damaging the legitimacy of the position.
-Imposition of foreign cultures and systems, replacing existing systems.
-Vassalization by foreign culture.

When you ASK for an outside country to prop you up as ruler...there really isn't a good outcome for your country. This is particularly true when you look at our revealed true Diplomacy score - we're rich, but diplomatically weak.

As for the second part, it's not possible due to Hero action. Unable to critfail remember?
 
veekie said:
I SPECIFICALLY recognize the danger of a two way relationship, because it's more likely to screw us than to help us long term. Foreign intervention in ascending a ruler historically only ends in one of the following:
-Local uprising against foreign intervention, damaging the legitimacy of the position.
-Imposition of foreign cultures and systems, replacing existing systems.
-Vassalization by foreign culture.

When you ASK for an outside country to prop you up as ruler...there really isn't a good outcome for your country. This is particularly true when you look at our revealed true Diplomacy score - we're rich, but diplomatically weak.
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The Xoh got outright conquered and they turned it around, you think we can't deal with being the ones to make the first step in an alliance? The same alliance we desperately need against the onrushing Xooh.

veekie said:
As for the second part, it's not possible due to Hero action. Unable to critfail remember?
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*points at the charred remains of Lolwyna*

Evidently they are not.
 
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We do not need strife that come with diplomacy and foreign entanglement at a time when our martial are at dangerously high level.
 
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