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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
 
bluefur87 said:
I think we're expecting a war with the Hath soon enough that I don't want to prepare for another war. Especially when the megaproject list just keeps getting longer despite us spamming the hell out of it.
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Their Military Hero is going to die soon and they still haven't won anything major from the Highlanders, they can come and get wrecked by our superior tech and numbers in our defensive territory.

We could break their offensive with a single Main War Mission most likely
 
notgreat said:
Regulation is the way of the Ymaryn. We should do the same thing we did to prostitution and gambling, regulate it.
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Some things need to be stomped into oblivion, not regulated. I'm worried that this will lead to things like dog and cock fights, since we're explicitly allowing something we consider abuse instead of science.
 
Powerofmind said:
Is it bad that the first thing I thought when the horse part came up was that the drunk young men were... well...
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My mind went there as well. Shame! :oops:

It's kind of a pity that it just mentions 'young men' though. Hopefully our remaining women warriors try it out- I'm not sure how big our horses are right now, but a cavalry or cavalry-archer position being dominated by women at this time actually makes a great deal of sense up until horses bulk up. Being physically smaller finally pays off for something- the smaller you are the more horses you can ride and the less you tire the horses while riding them.
 
McLuvin said:
Their Military Hero is going to die soon and they still haven't won anything major from the Highlanders, they can come and get wrecked by our superior tech and numbers in our defensive territory.

We could break their offensive with a single Main War Mission most likely
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Oh, yes, after we deal with them sure, start prepping some boat tech, I wouldn't mind. But break the Hath and vassalize them first to stop this from happening again. I still want the Palace and Census, bare minimum.
 
McLuvin said:
It says not without more boats, we do that we can probably hit them.

And if we need to build major docks, fine, but. Would very much like to vassalise them before they hit our trade dominance
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...i really think you're being too optimistic here. Its specifically:
-Right now its completely insane to think we could attack them, per our martial hero's estimation.
-He then thinks "Certainly without more boats", so boats would help, but...
-1. even then he thinks about how the Trelli boats are specifically focused on speed for ship-to-ship combat, as well as intercepting ships, making either a naval battle or trying to get past them to land warriors difficult at best
-2. "impossible...certainly without X" does not mean that with X its suddenly easy. It means we'd be making progress. Like... "its insane to think about building a pyramid...certainly without a lot of metal tools" is an accurate statement, but that doesn't mean that building The Mountain megaproject is easy now that we have widespread iron tools, it just means that its possible now.


Also, yeah, "putting a toll on waters they control" and "not allowing outsiders to freely travel through your lands" is not some great evil...its not even really all that bad even if we use today's standards, honestly...like "i own an important transportation focus, pay me a fee to get through" isn't something terrible, its par for the course and frankly what we'd do if we were there.
 
Andres110 said:
No there is not. Our concept of Justice came from realising that you should never be an asshole, even if it benefits you. And again, while being an asshole may result in short term material prosperity, it results in long term bad behaviour. We are a better civilisation for our decision to never be assholes.


They're only doing that to those who pass through their territory - which is a pass which separates the seas. It's fine. It's inconvenient to us insofar as we want to enter that sea, but it's not worthy of war.
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They're being arseholes and I would rather not find out tre price for getting pushed of dominat in a trade facet, especially as it's mentioned to be bad for our civ.

If we hit the highway robbers then we can save our civ from damage latter, like with that Grater Good trait everyone misses
 
[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
 
[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
Spectrum said:
There's no compelling reason to go after the Trelli at any point on the horizon.
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We'll want to to get out of the Black Sea, eventually.

But given they're not in the religion trade, diploannexing them might be practical.

On that note, we'll need to build new temples soon.
 
[X] [Curr] Yes, in Vallyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)

What are Tailings?
 
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)

my little king cant be this cute of a dork in love
 
Andres110 said:
No there is not. Our concept of Justice came from realising that you should never be an asshole, even if it benefits you. And again, while being an asshole may result in short term material prosperity, it results in long term bad behaviour. We are a better civilisation for our decision to never be assholes.
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I... I just can't take this sort of naked idealism seriously. Do you consider America to be a fairly decent and 'ideal' civ? Because we pioneered the concept of concentration camps. Is there any moral civilization past or present you can genuinely point out to? Because there's a decent chance it's got a hell of a lot of skeletons in its closet.

Because this just feels so wrong as to border on the offensive. The world today is a kinder place because it can afford to be, and because the alternatives are too bloody. The assumption that your fundamentally misplaced moral superiority (see me pointing out we've ignored our slaving, rapine, child butchering neighbors for centuries) is some sort of constant positive force for nations is just nuts.

I consider myself to be an idealist, but this sort of shit gives idealists a bad name.

So, in summary- one giant heaping :Citation Needed: I'm not saying there aren't upsides to being not an asshole, but claiming something as nuanced as civilization is all about all Paragon all the way is beyond retarded.
Spectrum said:
There's no compelling reason to go after the Trelli at any point on the horizon. We should be diplovassalizing the Metal Workers as priority one.
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You're kidding. They are sitting on the gateway to the entire Mediterranean, their value to our trade is an OOM more than just securing more metal good.
 
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Abby Normal said:
"putting a toll on waters they control" and "not allowing outsiders to freely travel through your lands
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More like not letting traders through to the other side and making them do their business there so they can make money off them.

It's like someone using a gun to make everyone eat at their restaurant during lunch break, even though with a longer walk they could reach a better restaurant
 
[X] [Value] Do not spread
[X] [Main] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - South-Eastern Redhills
 
By the way, duders, if we ever want to actually compete at ocean going warfare we need big boats or fast boats. Portable, no matter the size, is patently useless in this respect.

We need a new design.
 
@Academia Nut A couple questions
-Where did the -1 diplo cost come from? (we had 9, gained the usual +4 per turn, but ended at 12 instead of 13)
-Where did the (+1) econ come from? (1 - 1 (True City) + 4 (Baby Boom) + 4 (Expand Econ) + 1 (Black Soil) = 9) DId black soil give us an extra +1 at end of turn/next turn?
Edit: Nevermind, i'm an idiot and forgot about the settlement econ.
-Likewise, how much of the econ expansion was from black soil, as opposed to the settlement? Either way we got +7 from the two, so either the settlement location was amazing or black soil is amazing.
-When you said we'd be discovering a new subordinate type this turn, was that "by the end of the whole turn" instead of just this update, or did we just not roll/take the right actions to discover it?
 
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Rakuhn said:
Just to let you know Abby, it is extremely unlikel that you'll get McLuvin to change his mind about anything. Unless you are concerned that he might convince someone else, I'd only ever respond to one of his topics once.
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I've changed my mind and admited I was wrong on several occasions, don't insult me just because you can't be bothered to debate mate.

Have some class
 
Candesce said:
On that note, we'll need to build new temples soon.
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I actually really, really have to emphasize this. Getting temples up asap might be more important than palace and census. If only because a single temple would be immensely cheaper. It apparently allows us to pass unpopular things instead of taking stability hits. Think of how huge that is for us.

That is the bigger reason I don't want to just auto war the Treli, we need to improve our admin tech something fierce with what we have available.

Also, I am kicking around a theory on how religious authority works, but I think I'll wait until next turn starts to propose it.
 
pbluekan said:
So I'm actually a little divided here. Allowing it in valleyhome is useful as a small scale test, but at the same time, spreading it around full hasn't its own advantages. Mostly, lessening confusion in the transfer.
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Make its use official in Valleyhome and it will spread on its own. Also, means the mint is in the capital.
Andres110 said:
Remember, not being an asshole is what gets us long term benefits, as per AN and our history. We even have it enshrined in our library to not be dicks to our neighbours.
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Uruk produced the 'Epic of Gilgamesh' and Valleyhome produced 'Don't be a Dick to Your Neighbors'. Shows of the differences in culture right there.
Sugnez said:
Small scale beta testing on new admin tech is a good thing.
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...and your voting for the full scale implementation why?
 
pbluekan said:
So I'm actually a little divided here. Allowing it in valleyhome is useful as a small scale test, but at the same time, spreading it around full hasn't its own advantages. Mostly, lessening confusion in the transfer.
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We already completely change our administration style inside of Valleyhome, this would just be one more thing. And then people get used to it and we can spread it wider with a king who is better at admin.

Sugnez said:
but I think that forcing nature under our thumb by supporting the practice doesn't gel too well with our religion
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Our people are all about understanding nature and then improving it. See: Step Farms, Managed Forests, Black Soil, etc.

bluefur87 said:
4 Centralization is not low. I mean, the lowest we could hope for, but not low.
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4 Centralization is low. It's not dangerously low like 1 would be, but I'd prefer to be at golden centralization since that's how we get advancements. We absolutely want to avoid red though, 100%.

Yeangst said:
What are Tailings?
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The pits of poisonous runoffs from all our metalworking. All sorts of interesting chemical reactions are happening in them.

Karugus said:
You're kidding. They are sitting on the gateway to the entire Mediterranean, their value to our trade is an OOM more than just securing more metal good.
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Agreed, but they're also going to be much, much harder than the MW to claim. If we attack them we're horribly jerks, and they're pretty unlikely to attack us.

If they start charging too much we can just build our own canal.
pbluekan said:
By the way, duders, if we ever want to actually compete at ocean going warfare we need big boats or fast boats. Portable, no matter the size, is patently useless in this respect.

We need a new design.
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Agreed. Portable+Size is good for river trade and war, we can grab a separate Size+Speed for winning naval battles.
 
Yeangst said:
[X] [Curr] Yes, in Vallyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)

What are Tailings?
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The toxic waste made by smelting copper- currently we seal them in ceramic pits so they don't poison the water table
 
Andres110 said:
Currently, Religious Authority seems to be the thing we lose whenever we do New Things. I don't like Religious Authority.
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Seems more like it punishes us for doing things that go against our religion. Like being purposefully harmful to animals and doing stuff with things we've declared (spiritually) corruptive.

I bet that having it low will cause people to play loose with our religious tenets be they good or bad. Having it high will likely cause people to follow religious rules more strictly. It's probably also the stat that defends us from conversion to other religions.
 
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