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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome

So I'm actually a little divided here. Allowing it in valleyhome is useful as a small scale test, but at the same time, spreading it around full hasn't its own advantages. Mostly, lessening confusion in the transfer.

[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)

This is just necessary. Period. The loss of religious authority is a fairly minimal thing, and the stability loss is only potential for such a wonderful gain.

[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)

Necessary.

[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)

I really don't like the look of this, and its fish as all get out. However, I don't like the straight up unknowable actions on the other side of things.
 
McLuvin said:
They are massive dicks anyway
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They're just asking for a toll, a toll to pass through their territory. They're not pirating us or anything. They're not being dicks. WE'D be the dicks if we attacked them just because they're trading with people.

If someone does something bad, something warlike, something like slaughter, rape, and slavery, then it's perhaps acceptable to attack them. Trade? That's a peaceful action, not something worthy of attack.

Remember, not being an asshole is what gets us long term benefits, as per AN and our history. We even have it enshrined in our library to not be dicks to our neighbours.
 
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I think that next turn we have two required actions:
1- Trade mission to Trelli. Secure ourselves a source of bronze and tin.
2- Expand snail production

I'd also be in favor of study actions or building another temple.
 
Andres110 said:
They're just asking for a toll, a toll to pass through their territory. They're not pirating us or anything. They're not being dicks. WE'D be the dicks if we attacked them just because they're trading with people.

If someone does something bad, something warlike, something like slaughter, rape, and slavery, then it's perhaps acceptable to attack them. Trade? That's a peaceful action, not something worthy of attack.

Remember, not being an asshole is what gets us long term benefits, as per AN.
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No they aren't, they aren't letting anyone through their territory to trade and making everyone use them as a middleman or else.

This is basically them abusing their geographical location and decent navy to force traders to use their city and pay taxes to them, its bluntly aggressive and opportunistic and more than enough for them to be vassalised on its own without them also using it to threaten our trade dominance
 
[X] [Curr] Yes, for everyone (Stability loss?, Other effects?, establishes currency)
[X] [Horse] Ignore it (-1 Religious Authority)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
 
On a different note does anyone have any idea what our mysticism hero might discover in her research?
[X] [Curr] Yes, in vallyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
 
pbluekan said:
So I'm actually a little divided here. Allowing it in valleyhome is useful as a small scale test, but at the same time, spreading it around full hasn't its own advantages. Mostly, lessening confusion in the transfer.
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That's my one worry- that this will be clans all over again.
 
Rakuhn said:
- Trade mission to Trelli. Secure ourselves a source of bronze and tin
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War mission with build boats.

Vassalise them and profit whilst punishing them for being dicks whilst also removeing someone who could actually knock us of a dominant trade position and cause strife and bad effects via that
 
McLuvin said:
No they aren't, they aren't letting anyone through their territory to trade and making everyone use them as a middleman or else.

This is basically them abusing their geographical location and decent navy to force traders to use their city and pay taxes to them, its bluntly aggressive and opportunistic and more than enough for them to be vassalised on its own without them also using it to threaten our trade dominance
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We didn't even know they existed before this turn, chill out.
 
[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
 
[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)

Is it bad that the first thing I thought when the horse part came up was that the drunk young men were... well...
 
McLuvin said:
Okay guys, does anyone else want to try Vasalising the Trelli next full turn?

They are one city, with one port, in about a turn and a half we could subjugate them and turn them into a Vassal.

They are massive dicks anyway and are threatening our trade dominance, if we did vassalise them we would make massive amounts of money over our new trade control over them.

What do you guys think?
Should we vassalise them next turn if we can?
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...The update specifically addresses this, and tells us:
Academia Nut said:
he place was simply too far away to even begin to contemplate attacking. Certainly not without more boats... and the boats that Trelli had tended to be sleek looking things, meant to chase down interlopers that tried to defy their demands.
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We'd need to focus heavily on docks and boats, and it would still be expensive even if we had a new size+speed design, because they clearly have been focusing on boats meant for ship-to-ship warfare, and have the advantage of a short supply line, whereas we'd be making a hefty treck even from the trading post, it sounds like.
I think we'd need to get the Great Docks megaproject before we could consider attacking them...Mind, i really want the great Docks at some point; I think it might do something like improving more boat actions ("new boat actions cost 1 less econ now" or "once per turn, a new boat secondary is upgraded to a main for free" or something), as well as giving us at least 2 or 3 design improvement chances.
 
I'm all for eventually vassalizing the Trelli, but we need our house in order first.

That means;
  1. Preparing for Nomads 2: Electric Boogaloo
  2. Curb stomping the hatters and eating them up
  3. Great Docks
  4. Better boats
  5. Building up an actual navy
    Andres110 said:
    They're just asking for a toll, a toll to pass through their territory. They're not pirating us or anything. They're not being dicks. WE'D be the dicks if we attacked them just because they're trading with people.

    If someone does something bad, something warlike, something like slaughter, rape, and slavery, then it's perhaps acceptable to attack them. Trade? That's a peaceful action, not something worthy of attack.

    Remember, not being an asshole is what gets us long term benefits, as per AN and history. We even have it enshrined in our library to not be dicks to our neighbours.
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    *facepalm*
And there's the peaceniks crawling out of the woods. The fact is- there's a time and a place for being not an asshole. There's a time and a place for being an asshole. No nation ever became glorified for fundamentally refusing to act in its own interests out of morality. This is exactly the sort of things wars have and will be fought over. Get over it.

Are we advocating the razing of their city? The butchering of their children? The total destruction of the Trelli Way? Know. We're talking about how in the long run it would be a total coup to vassalize them.

I'm really getting sick of this bullshit where you trying to hold the moral high ground ignoring the fact we've been sitting next to slaughters, rapists, slavers, and child killers and doing nothing.
 
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McLuvin said:
No they aren't, they aren't letting anyone through their territory to trade and making everyone use them as a middleman or else.

This is basically them abusing their geographical location and decent navy to force traders to use their city and pay taxes to them, its bluntly aggressive and opportunistic and more than enough for them to be vassalised on its own without them also using it to threaten our trade dominance
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"You live in this place and make people trade with you if they want to go to the other side, and if you don't, you do the unspeakable act of not letting them go to the other side. That is evil and complete justification for us to kill your people and damage your trade so that our traders can be more prosperous."
These are the words of an asshole.
 
Abby Normal said:
...The update specifically addresses this, and tells us:

We'd need to focus heavily on docks and boats, and it would still be expensive even if we had a new size+speed design, because they clearly have been focusing on boats meant for ship-to-ship warfare, and have the advantage of a short supply line, whereas we'd be making a hefty treck even from the trading post, it sounds like.
I think we'd need to get the Great Docks megaproject before we could consider attacking them...Mind, i really want the great Docks at some point; I think it might do something like improving more boat actions ("new boat actions cost 1 less econ now" or "once per turn, a new boat secondary is upgraded to a main for free" or something), as well as giving us at least 2 or 3 design improvement chances.
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It says not without more boats, we do that we can probably hit them.

And if we need to build major docks, fine, but. Would very much like to vassalise them before they hit our trade dominance
 
[X] [Curr] Yes, for everyone (Stability loss?, Other effects?, establishes currency)
Small scale beta testing on new admin tech is a good thing.

[X] [Horse] Crush it
The exact wording on this vote is "Horse Abuse". I do want horseback riding, and being forceful about it will give us the tech sooner, but I think that forcing nature under our thumb by supporting the practice doesn't gel too well with our religion, which is why two of the three options in this vote have us lose Religious Authority. I'm sure if we crush the start of horseback riding now, we'll develop it in a way that's more friendly to the horses further in the future.

[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
Aqueducts are nice, I'd like more of them.

[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
We've only known Lolwyna for one turn and I already love her.
 
[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)

Looks like we really have been the first group to get horseback riding.
Andres110 said:
Currently, Religious Authority seems to be the thing we lose whenever we do New Things. I don't like Religious Authority.
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On the other hand it lets us actually spend stuff for innovations. Much cheaper than what we have already had to do. We're going to absolutely want more temples, though.
notgreat said:
Our Centralization is still low, as is our Stability. Enforce Justice is awesome.
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4 Centralization is not low. I mean, the lowest we could hope for, but not low.
McLuvin said:
Okay guys, does anyone else want to try Vasalising the Trelli next full turn?

They are one city, with one port, in about a turn and a half we could subjugate them and turn them into a Vassal.

They are massive dicks anyway and are threatening our trade dominance, if we did vassalise them we would make massive amounts of money over our new trade control over them.

What do you guys think?
Should we vassalise them next turn if we can?
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I think we're expecting a war with the Hath soon enough that I don't want to prepare for another war. Especially when the megaproject list just keeps getting longer despite us spamming the hell out of it.
 
Powerofmind said:
Is it bad that the first thing I thought when the horse part came up was that the drunk young men were... well...
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I, too, had that thought given the restlessness of young men with insufficient women around.

Karugus said:
I'm all for eventually vassalizing the Trelli, but we need our house in order first.
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There's no compelling reason to go after the Trelli at any point on the horizon. We should be diplovassalizing the Metal Workers as priority one.
 
Andres110 said:
"You live in this place and make people trade with you if they want to go to the other side, and if you don't, you do the unspeakable act of not letting them go to the other side. That is evil and complete justification for us to kill your people and damage your trade so that our traders can be more prosperous."
These are the words of an asshole.
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No.

You've ignored what I've said and been a bit of a jerk about it as well.

Go back and read what I said before you misrepresent me for your own ends.

They are basically forcing people to use them as middle men.
 
Karugus said:
There's a time and a place for being an asshole.
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No there is not. Our concept of Justice came from realising that you should never be an asshole, even if it benefits you. And again, while being an asshole may result in short term material prosperity, it results in long term bad behaviour. We are a better civilisation for our decision to never be assholes.

McLuvin said:
They are basically forcing people to use them as middle men.
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They're only doing that to those who pass through their territory - which is a pass which separates the seas. It's fine. It's inconvenient to us insofar as we want to enter that sea, but it's not worthy of war.
 
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