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Paths of Civilization

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SpeckofStardust said:
Ship base however is based on the amount one can ship however, which means it's more efficient to go large first.
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No, it really isn't more efficient, because larger ships won't be able to go as far along the rivers that make up most of the actual trading distance that needs to be covered, and it's much much more expensive for every mile that has to be covered on land compared to on a boat.

EDIT: A lot of the issues here seem to be people not understanding just how expensive it is to transport goods overland in the pre-industrial world.
 
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[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
 
But, like, seriously. We have iron in the copper age. We need to capitalize. At this point it's more of a liability than an advantage since everything revolves around, "Oh no, our military is too awesome."
 
Sivantic said:
Still don't think it should be encouraged here. So I'll just drop it and hope no one else listens.
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I'm actually very interested as to why you don't like it. It seems better than FPTP in almost every way for the sort of votes we often take due to its removal of vote splitting between similar options. A lot of people won't use it since they just copy&paste a full plan anyway, but it's a good way to reduce the effect of bandwagons.

If you want to take this to PMs instead feel free, because I'll keep on using it and bringing it up unless you convince me otherwise. Heck, I'd like to see the Ymaryn switch to something like that since it's overall a better system.
 
If we take the hathathyn villages we it should be possible to also take their mines and farms meaning we get pain killers and other metal mines
 
Train eventually beats out canals and rivers, but for a long time, waterways were the main driver of economic growth and industrialization.
 
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Lailoken said:
But, like, seriously. We have iron in the copper age. We need to capitalize. At this point it's more of a liability than an advantage since everything revolves around, "Oh no, our military is too awesome."
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That sounds like an amazing way to spread out ironworking out to everyone around us and then collapse from overextension and whoops, suddenly the nomads know how to work iron, so sorry.
 
DkArthas said:
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
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Chrestomanci said:
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
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I think I love you...
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction


Switching because I feel people have a point about portability.
Adhoc vote count started by Reader of all on Jun 4, 2017 at 2:41 AM, finished with 47265 posts and 88 votes.
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Godwinson said:
No, it really isn't more efficient, because larger ships won't be able to go as far along the rivers that make up most of the actual trading distance that needs to be covered, and it's much much more expensive for every mile that has to be covered on land compared to on a boat.
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Our river systems doesn't connect to most of the other nations, and there is no way going for portable first will let us move ships that are full across the relatively Hilly region we live in.
 
SpeckofStardust said:


Our river systems doesn't connect to most of the other nations, and there is no way going for portable first will let us move ships that are full across the relatively Hilly region we live in.
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They would help out with the smaller rivers that are below the resolution level of the map that are throughout our nation, and throughout the coast of the "Black Sea".

"Portable" isn't just being able to portage a ship between river systems, it's also being able to bring it through and around impassable parts of any given river system, of which there are many, because this is an era before you had the widespread maintenance of rivers specifically to ensure navigability.
 
SpeckofStardust said:


Our river systems doesn't connect to most of the other nations, and there is no way going for portable first will let us move ships that are full across the relatively Hilly region we live in.
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You forget that a lot of the rivers are not actually mapped. Our canal was born by diverting several smaller rivers that were not on the map. Much of our irrigation is done the same way.
 
Godwinson said:
They would help out with the smaller rivers that are below the resolution level of the map that are throughout our nation, and throughout the coast of the "Black Sea".

"Portable" isn't just being able to portage a ship between river systems, it's also being able to bring it through and around impassable parts of any given river system, of which there are many, because this is an era before you had the widespread maintenance of rivers specifically to ensure navigability.
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Oh, and, furthermore, portability might well permit out ships to be able to bypass the cataracts that prevent our ships from trading along the "Euphrates".
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
 
Godwinson said:
They would help out with the smaller rivers that are below the resolution level of the map that are throughout our nation, and throughout the coast of the "Black Sea".

"Portable" isn't just being able to portage a ship between river systems, it's also being able to bring it through and around impassable parts of any given river system, of which there are many, because this is an era before you had the widespread maintenance of rivers specifically to ensure navigability.
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You however need to consider the age were in, we cant in any reasonable time build ships that are portable while full, going portable will make us raiding ships not trade ships.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
You however need to consider the age were in, we cant in any reasonable time build ships that are portable while full, going portable will make us raiding ships not trade ships.
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This is a time when I wish SV had the smiley of bashing one's head against the wall.

Simply put, you are wrong. Flat out. Portability is what makes for a trading ship in this era.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
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Huh. Just realized something.

@Academia Nut
Is there a chance of Overcrowding if we take the largest [CA] wave?

We have 4 econ slots remaining. +4 from the wave, puts us at 8. We gain 8-10 econ from the wave, putting us at 0 to -2.

I might have to switch to Salterns simply because that's the only way to prevent overcrowding since it gives +2 econ slots as opposed to the 0 or 1 from Salt Gift and Snails respectively.

edit: Last time we had a chance of overcrowding it was explicitly mentioned inside of the immigration vote.
 
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Godwinson said:
No, it really isn't more efficient, because larger ships won't be able to go as far along the rivers that make up most of the actual trading distance that needs to be covered, and it's much much more expensive for every mile that has to be covered on land compared to on a boat.

EDIT: A lot of the issues here seem to be people not understanding just how expensive it is to transport goods overland in the pre-industrial world.
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10 to 50 times the price of water transportation,or something like that.
We know it.
But, well, without bigger ships good luck making longer travels.


Also, it's funny that you mentioned China: their ships became mostly smaller junks only later, in about 16th century, when they entered internal focus and stagnation-ish.

Before that, they were the textbook example of focus on big ships and they, not Mediterraneans, are example of what size-focus entails.

Completely coincidenally, after switching fleet focus to smaller riverships China has stopped big external sailing missions. Surprisingly, riverships are not as good at seasailing as seaships.
 
notgreat said:
Huh. Just realized something.

@Academia Nut
Is there a chance of Overcrowding if we take the largest [CA] wave?

We have 4 econ slots remaining. +4 from the wave, puts us at 8. We gain 8-10 econ from the wave, putting us at 0 to -2.

I might have to switch to Salterns simply because that's the only way to prevent overcrowding since it gives +2 econ slots as opposed to the 0 or 1 from Salt Gift and Snails respectively.
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Part of the reason I've went for Salterns. Sorta. Mostly did it for the econ cost.
 
Y'know, we're not that far away from a tie on Size and Portability. Splitting the docks between those working on the small ships and those working on the large ones could be interesting. Having a diverse set of boats would be very useful even if they aren't as good in their specific areas.
 
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