- Pronouns
- He/Him
Nah, the legacy is something of a carrot, the debilitating belief is more to mix things up depending on actions.
You will eventually develop a greater diversity of boats, but this initial phase is important for later developments.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Nah, the legacy is something of a carrot, the debilitating belief is more to mix things up depending on actions.
You will eventually develop a greater diversity of boats, but this initial phase is important for later developments.
- Location
- The People's Saltern
That was more of a joke post but I'll answer a bit more seriously. No citations because wow, it takes so much effort.
First off, I wasn't that clear (or even clear at all since I was purposefully obfuscating what I meant) but I was focusing on the Stallion Tribes and Western Wall.
The forests there are relatively new (besides the first planting by the Stallions long, long ago), so there isn't that much growth, especially if they want to grow the forest for defense instead of cutting it down. So they'll want to ship lumber from elsewhere which requires boats or lumber. Small boats probably aren't that great for lumber transport.
There's a lack of trails, groomed or gravel, to the area. To lay down gravel, you need gravel in the immediate area. This requires transport of gravel from the source, in this case, the mines. The mines are relatively deep into our territory and need to transport gravel all the way out to the Stallions to lay their trails.
We lack even basic trails to make it all the way there, so we might want to make Groomed Trails first to have a smooth-ish path to the Stallions. The initial trails will also help mark where to lay down the gravel since it would really suck if somebody laid out a gravel trail that went the long way around something.
We want the initial trails to make upgrading trails easier.
These New Trails are capped by Centralization which we have no way to efficiently dump. (Also, we're raising it through Enforce Justice.)
But hey, this all started with a weird idea of shipping gravel to the Stallions even if it's horribly inefficient compared to just transporting over the (non-existent) roads. It just made my previous post more fun to type out. I can't even defend this point.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
*looks suspiciously at what has come up so far*
It's a Admin related belief isn't it. *wiggles eyebrows*
Oh I'm excited for entirely different reasons now. The Excitement of Fear!
My Dwarf Fortress is triggering!
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You do realize that we got this tech advance by building docks, right? So that once we get a couple more docks we're going to get another tech advancement, at which point size will be immensely more relevant. It's a good advancement, just not the ideal one at the moment, and when it would be we'll be advancing tech again, because making it relevant gives us innovation rolls.I don't understand the animosity towards docks. They're infrastructure. Infrastructure our competitors don't even know how to build yet. We could be the Iron Dock Kings bestowing salt, dye, and herb upon our grateful supplicants while the Thunder Horses cry over their meager supply of bronze.
...my proposals don't even warrant GM comment
We've had docks for one turn. They have not.
The Hath's econ focuses mostly around copper (and now bronze) mining, the settlements who have those tools appear to have beaten all the others into listening to them, or gotten taken over by people who proceed to do that. The coastal settlements are likely too poor to afford good walls for the most part, and don't seem to actually take part in major coastal raiding. See how they never even tried raiding our actual settlements, just harassing our boats. Remember, they called the area next to us their back woods.
I genuinely do not expect war from this.
So, people want to try and predict what debilitating belief we could get? For now, I suspect it involves either the volcano or overflowing into martial too high. Other thoughts?
- Location
- Hell
Still think portable is the better route. It is much better at this point in time to be able to trade everywhere despite having no ports rather than being dependent on ports that don't even exist yet.
No, everything is wrong with that. I feel disgusting even having posted that >.>
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Not sure about the volcano thing. Didn't AN only say that it was possibly a cause? *shrug*
Martial could do it but not sure how it would turn out. Honor of Elites disinclines us to demonize them like a Belief probably would, in my mind.
I'd figure a Admin thing. Maybe our Kings are all idiots, or become idiots Debilitating Belief? That'd suck.
- Location
- The People's Saltern
Hopefully it doesn't flip Weapon of the Gods around to a belief that we are the People of the Gods because of our mastery of iron. It would be horribly ironic to have the opposite belief affect us after we got rid of the first.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Would it be wrong tho?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well since Weapons was gotten rid off long enough ago to be out of living memory I rather doubt such a turn around is possible. I.e A direct reversal I consider impossible because the thing isn't there to reverse.
Now some kind of other Hubris Manifest Destiny thing similar to what you talk about developing on it's own? Totally possible.
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Approval Voting is very much a real thing and it's honestly a better system than first-past-the-post. It has vulnerabilities and problems, but it's still way better than FPTP.
- Location
- United States
It could be a debilitating belief towards high martial, as we've been having serious issues with it for awhile now.
The economy could come in before we start the saltern, overflowing into martial. I'm pretty sure that would be cause of a debilitating belief if the results are bad.
Yea we have an admin hero, but he's not king right now...only the heir.
The economy could come in before we start the saltern, overflowing into martial. I'm pretty sure that would be cause of a debilitating belief if the results are bad.
Yea we have an admin hero, but he's not king right now...only the heir.
Things I can think of that could cause major stress based on our current actions, thus most likely causing the debilitating belief: (if it's not an action that would cause a stress, it might as well be random)
- Large Martial Overflow (Done by taking the highest intake and not spending enough money)
- Econ Slots getting reduced to bellow 0 (Done by taking in more than we can afford to based on econ slots)
- Going to war with the Hath: Not sure how this would actually cause the stress, it would have to involve stuff we don't know.
- Over reaching with our admin fix: Well, we are doing that. Most of us agree that it's best to attempt this under an admin/diplo hero though.
- Location
- Staring into the void
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
- Location
- Austria
And here we have it.
@veekie , @Godwinson , do you still think focus on portability is worth it seeing as it will influence *all* of our later shipbuilding?
Especially since per WoG we can utilise bigger ships even without docks, just not to their full potebtial.
- Location
- Hell
Still don't think it should be encouraged here. So I'll just drop it and hope no one else listens.
I'd argue that would make it more important since we do want the ability to travel up and down rivers. Much of our territory and planned to take territory are rivers and hills, making river travel immensely important.
If we focus on size now, it would likely be harder to travel on rivers later.
- Location
- Austria
Our territory is relatively small, and later on it can be covered by roads; our river system is not essential to our logistics.
Bonus point: if we are going to build dams on our rivers, river trade will become harder too.
So, in long term sea-focused ships make more sense.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hmmm...
- I think in this case it'd be a thing like what the Xoh has. Our warriors must be appeased with offerings and battle and such. That'd suck.
- Any belief here would be causing damage to CA, supported by Divine Stewards. The Land can only hold so much and all that, so we can't take you. Which would really suck.
- If it went really badly, some kind of the Sea is cursed Belief. Sucky but not too bad.
- An Admin belief that any kind of change, even simple ones, is bad. That'd be a copper plated bitch to remove since it directly disinclines the actions needed to fix it (i.e simple admin decisions like lumping is here)
Locks go well with dams to my understanding so I think that point about river travel is much less impactful.
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Yes, because the sort of ship construction techniques that you get with an emphasis on portability early on is much, much better than you get with an early focus on size or speed, because it forces examination of the way you assemble the ship.
Furthermore, Portability means that our ships can pass deeper into river systems which is ridiculously important for a very long time, because riverine trade is about an order of magnitude less expensive per mile than overland trade. Also, bigger ships wouldn't just limit our landing sites, they would also limit how far up rivers we could get due to a larger ship being developed now would almost certainly be of a design that has a deeper draft.
We don't want to wind up stuck with ships like the Greeks or Romans had, because the Hellenic world was shit when it came to building good sailing ships.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
In order:
Even if we had a full road network, river and canal based shipping is substantially more cost-effective for hauling goods. It's one of the huge advantages that China had for a long damn time, their extensive canal network for shipping. Our river system absolutely is essential to moving things about cheaply within out territories. And finally, we're not going to be damming up every river, and even if we did, offloading, hauling up to the top, and then continuing on from there is what portability would allow!
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Ship base however is based on the amount one can ship however, which means it's more efficient to go large first.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift