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Paths of Civilization

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Umi-san said:
Why would you need trails to build the docks.. Forests are widespread, even in Blackmouth.


It would b cool.
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Nope sadly they didn't. That was Redshore building our end of the Dock Network.


Kiba said:
We could sandwich the Hathatyn by setting up a colony on the opposite side of their western settlement, which basically screw them hard.
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Too far and unmapped. After we annex these coastals first.
 
Thought it'd be useful to have a task-separated tally. Size/Portability is really the only one in the running at this point. There were a couple strange [infra] votes but nothing too bad.
@NewAgeOfPower
Your vote has a random QUOTE tag in it. Please fix.
@DocMatoi
Your vote is... weird. I have no idea what [CA] CLEAR is supposed to mean.

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 1869 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 46730-47190]
##### NetTally 1.9.4
Task: CA
[66][CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[12][CA] Accept those who come to the People (Chance of Stability loss, +2 Econ)
[1][CA] Encourage people to flee the conflicts (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[1][CA] CLEAR
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Boats
[39][Boats] Size
[29][Boats] Portability
[12][Boats] Speed
[2][Boats] Keep working with current designs (+1 Econ, +1 Econ Expansion)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Infra
[60][Infra] Main Saltern Construction
[10][Infra] Main Expand Snail Cultivation
[10][Infra] Main Salt Gift
[1][Infra] Main Expand Economy
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Law
[44][Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[14][Law] Have the law favour lumping
[10][Law] Have the law favour splitting
[5][Law] Leave things be
[1][Law] Heroic Diplo-Admin geographic administration reform

Total No. of Voters: 85

@Lailoken
No worries. Note how I continued voting for my plan anyway (Snails). Approval Voting is nice like that, though I'd vastly prefer Plan Voting anyway, we're not getting it.

edit: removed the excess newlines
 
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notgreat said:
Though it'd be useful to have a task-separated tally. Size/Portability is really the only one in the running at this point. There were a couple strange [infra] votes but nothing too bad.
@NewAgeOfPower
Your vote has a random QUOTE tag in it. Please fix.
@DocMatoi
Your vote is... weird. I have no idea what [CA] CLEAR is supposed to mean.
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 1869 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 46730-47190]
##### NetTally 1.9.4

Task: CA

[66][CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[12][CA] Accept those who come to the People (Chance of Stability loss, +2 Econ)
[1][CA] Encourage people to flee the conflicts (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[1][CA] CLEAR


Task: Boats

[39][Boats] Size
[29][Boats] Portability
[12][Boats] Speed
[2][Boats] Keep working with current designs (+1 Econ, +1 Econ Expansion)


Task: Infra

[60][Infra] Main Saltern Construction
[10][Infra] Main Expand Snail Cultivation
[10][Infra] Main Salt Gift
[1][Infra] Main Expand Economy


Task: Law

[44][Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[14][Law] Have the law favour lumping
[10][Law] Have the law favour splitting
[5][Law] Leave things be
[1][Law] Heroic Diplo-Admin geographic administration reform

Total No. of Voters: 85



@Lailoken
No worries. Note how I continued voting for my plan anyway (Snails). Approval Voting is nice like that, though I'd vastly prefer Plan Voting anyway, we're not getting it.
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DocMatoi's vote was a panic clear thing after they saw Andres110 posts a while back and there was a bit of panic flying around. They haven't fixed it yet.

Thank you for the Tally!
 
Why would anyone keep working with current design? Dumbest option out of the four, since we don't get any innovation.

It's worth noting that the Build Docks will give us "potential innovation" just as much as building boats would.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

Tactical voting, because portability has more immediate benefits.
 
veekie said:
...wouldn't that cause a really big overflow into Martial under a Heroic Diplomat? We nearly doubled the value of the invested Diplomacy last time under Magwyna.
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...Wow, Lailoken was not kidding about his invisibility.
Lailoken said:
@SpeckofStardust , @Rozencrantz , @ctulhuslp , @Godwinson , @Crazy7s1 , @Sivantic , @notgreat : while I will forever* cherish the support, the immutable reality is that the mere fact that I openly supported, and especially voted for, a course of action absolutely ensures that it will not be the winner. I advise you to ignore your hearts and vote strategically to minimize the damage of whatever inferior option is ultimately selected.

*Forever = 10 +/- 5 minutes at current levels is inebriation.

**Please feed my iguana.
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Case in point.
notgreat said:
No worries. Note how I continued voting for my plan anyway (Snails). Approval Voting is nice like that, though I'd vastly prefer Plan Voting anyway, we're not getting it.
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Still think that's cheating, otherwise there is nothing stopping me from posting

[X][CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X][Boats] Portability
[X][Infra] Main Saltern Construction
[X][Infra] Main Salt Gift
[X][Infra] Main Expand Economy
[X][Law] Attempt to close off both practices

To ensure anything but Snails wins.
 
veekie said:
...size, duh?
The problem with Size is you need either docks at both ends(which take time to build), or bring Portable rowboats on your bigger ship for unloading purposes, because a large ship running aground is gone.
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Yes. And if we are not going to build the docks, why the hell did we even choose them?
There will be docks everywhere we need them soon enough.

I would be fine with the portable boats if we had multiple types, but this seems to be the choice on the overall style of ships, in which case, purely seafaring boats are better in long term.
 
ctulhuslp said:
what boat upgrade will make transporting people, or other bulk goods, more efficient?
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Size would increase bulk transport between sites where there was either a dock or a suitable place to safely beach the boat (this requires a relatively hefty tide - come in at high tide, anchor, let the tide go out enough that you settle and can thus move things about easily enough, then let the time come back in when you want to disembark). Big would be bigger than the relatively small sailboats currently using, but you wouldn't entirely need a dock network to get use out of them. Just the most use out of them.
 
veekie said:
...thats not how naval defense works.

First, amphibious landings are bullshit. Even the vikings avoided them. It means you are in a slow moving, highly flammable boat with no cover while people on the shore can shoot at you. It only became practical at all with the advent of siege engines on large ship, which allowed the ship to use anti-fortification weapons to cover for a landing party moving up.

This means that most coastal invasions involve boats fighting boats, or else the invading force will land a short distance away from the village, disembark and approach on foot.

That's what a wall is for.
That's why building a village just a little bit inland only makes it easier to attack by sea.
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Coastal erosion pushes sand along coasts. This means that coastal settlements will either slowly migrate to keep up with it, or have very... interesting shorelines, often ending up with sand bars forming on one side, or the inside being filled up. Building walls out into the ocean causes many things to happen in what is actually a frequently changing environment. Like, this can change over 20 years easily, let alone the hundreds of years these villages have existed for.

So you build a wall in a semi-circle? So what? That means someone can just park downshore and walk around the wall at low tide and wade through maybe a foot or two of water, because you are unlikely to have built a wall that far out into the sea.

What your problem seems to be, though, is you think I said 'put it inland,' when what I said is, 'don't have an open ended wall into the ocean.' Literally building a wall facing the shoreline with a gate to travel through deals with the vast majority of potential sea raids and allows you to have fortifications to fight from the sea. Meanwhile, what bungie was proposing was not having any wall facing the sea. It's literally a matter of feet, and when you're a village you sure as hell can't afford to build expensive large walls out into the sea needed to genuinely stop sea boats while they're in the water. At best, they have some coastal cities that are closer to their core that do it. More likely, they tend to have light walls surrounding their city and literally pushing up to the coastline as much as they can afford. What little we've seen of them isn't very advanced in terms of sea tech, honestly. They aren't even ahead of us in dyes despite us not really focusing on it. They seem to focus more on metal than navel power, and they're best cities appear to be inland by their mines.
 
Sivantic said:
Still think that's cheating, otherwise there is nothing stopping me from posting
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Yeah, nothing wrong with that. If you support everything over Snails then go for it. It only adds +1. (And I don't care that much about this vote anyway. I think Snails is a bit better given the max-[CA] vote, but not by that much)

edit: To clarify: voting for everything but snails would be equivalent to tactically voting for whichever option was in the lead that wasn't snails, but without needing to constantly re-check the tally in case a different option gets a lead.
 
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Academia Nut said:
Size would increase bulk transport between sites where there was either a dock or a suitable place to safely beach the boat (this requires a relatively hefty tide - come in at high tide, anchor, let the tide go out enough that you settle and can thus move things about easily enough, then let the time come back in when you want to disembark). Big would be bigger than the relatively small sailboats currently using, but you wouldn't entirely need a dock network to get use out of them. Just the most use out of them.
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Oh hey while you are still here, I had another question. Can we still gain Debilitating Beliefs?
 
I don't understand the animosity towards docks. They're infrastructure. Infrastructure our competitors don't even know how to build yet. We could be the Iron Dock Kings bestowing salt, dye, and herb upon our grateful supplicants while the Thunder Horses cry over their meager supply of bronze.


...my proposals don't even warrant GM comment :(
 
Lailoken said:
I don't understand the animosity towards docks. They're infrastructure. Infrastructure our competitors don't even know how to build yet. We could be the Iron Dock Kings bestowing salt, dye, and herb upon our grateful supplicants while the Thunder Horses cry over their meager supply of bronze.


...my proposals don't even warrant GM comment :(
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I don't see animosity toward docks, but if the Marches don't build one, we can't take full advantage of docks.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Yes. And if we are not going to build the docks, why the hell did we even choose them?
There will be docks everywhere we need them soon enough.

I would be fine with the portable boats if we had multiple types, but this seems to be the choice on the overall style of ships, in which case, purely seafaring boats are better in long term.
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We got this choice before. Building docks or boats generate innovation rolls, which allows us to gain new types of ships.

CURRENTLY...we do not have docks everywhere, and will need to build docks at least thrice more to have a network worth the name. By which time we'd have triggered another innovation roll because the Love of Wisdom is awesome.

bluefur87 said:
Coastal erosion pushes sand along coasts. This means that coastal settlements will either slowly migrate to keep up with it, or have very... interesting shorelines, often ending up with sand bars forming on one side, or the inside being filled up. Building walls out into the ocean causes many things to happen in what is actually a frequently changing environment. Like, this can change over 20 years easily, let alone the hundreds of years these villages have existed for.

So you build a wall in a semi-circle? So what? That means someone can just park downshore and walk around the wall at low tide and wade through maybe a foot or two of water, because you are unlikely to have built a wall that far out into the sea.
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Uh...that assumes that the village is dumb or disorganized(the latter being fairly common to be fair) and doesn't commit to the relatively small effort of extending their walls as the coastlines shift, and also that wading through low tide gives you the kind of footing to fight at all decently. It would have done it's job if people need to cross the beach, under fire the whole time from the wall, round the corner, then charge UP the beach on poor footing, against ongoing fire.
bluefur87 said:
What your problem seems to be, though, is you think I said 'put it inland,' when what I said is, 'don't have an open ended wall into the ocean.' Literally building a wall facing the shoreline with a gate to travel through deals with the vast majority of potential sea raids and allows you to have fortifications to fight from the sea. Meanwhile, what bungie was proposing was not having any wall facing the sea. It's literally a matter of feet, and when you're a village you sure as hell can't afford to build expensive large walls out into the sea needed to genuinely stop sea boats while they're in the water. At best, they have some coastal cities that are closer to their core that do it. More likely, they tend to have light walls surrounding their city and literally pushing up to the coastline as much as they can afford. What little we've seen of them isn't very advanced in terms of sea tech, honestly. They aren't even ahead of us in dyes despite us not really focusing on it. They seem to focus more on metal than navel power, and they're best cities appear to be inland by their mines.
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That's sensible(I'm assuming they are walled but it won't matter because Heroic Diplomat makes the chance of war lower), but the dye production was a cheat. We put in a lot of effort to artificially cultivate the sea snails, where most people are likely still running on a natural harvesting model
 
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