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Paths of Civilization

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I'm going to try to plot out some possible [Main] actions if we change policies to Megaproject Support. I'm not too invested in the [Clan] choice so I'll skip over that by assuming we get the stability loss.

The main stats we're concerned about are
Economy 8
Econ Expansion 6/11
Great Temple Progress 1/5-7?
Stability -1

True City upkeep (Economy -1, Economy Expansion +1) brings us to Economy 8-1=7 and Econ Expansion 6+1=7/11.

We have 5 secondary provincial actions but only a [Main] Megaproject Support gives progress. Combined with the law (doubles strength of a policy action), this gives us 3 progress for 2 actions. I'm not sure what the remaining secondary action does, but I believe the default action is Expand Economy. This triggers True City's effect twice.

Provinces: [Main] Megaproject Support (+1 progress, -1 Econ, -1 Art), [Main] Megaproject Support - The Law (+2 progress, -2 Econ, -2 Art), [Sec] Expand Econ (+2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion)
True City effect: +2 Econ Expansion

This brings us to:
Economy: 7 - 3 + 2 = 6
Econ Expansion 7 + 2 - 2 = 7/11
Progress: 1+3/(5-7?) = 4/(5-7?)

For our other secondary action, I want [Secondary] Enforce Justice to bring us to 0 stability. [Main] Enforce Justice doesn't guarantee the extra stability and fills our Centralization.
We also want [CA] Xohyssiri for Greater Good which has the stability loss negation mechanic.

We'll assume the worst case in our Stability calculations (Clan reform ends up costing stability. No Greater Good from Xohyssiri or it doesn't negate the stability loss)
So Stability stays at -1.

This brings the stats to:
Economy 6 [-1]
Econ Expansion 7/11 [+1]
Temple Progress 4/(5-7?)
Stability -1

We now have a [Main] Action to do something with.

-1 Econ, -1 Art, +1 Progress
True City effect: +1 Econ Slot

Economy 5 [-1]
Econ Expansion 8/11 [+1]
Temple Progress 5/(5-7?)
Stability -1

Pros: This has a chance of finishing the Great Temple this turn and there's a possible symphony proc which could help finish if it takes 6 progress.
We get a free policy change if the Temple finishes.
Con: If we don't finish it this turn, the Temple finishes next turn and we've wasted a main action.
-2 Econ, -2 Art, +2 Progress, -1 Stability
True City effect: +1 Econ Slot

Economy 4 [-1]
Econ Expansion 8/11 [+1]
Temple Progress 6/(5-7?)
Stability -2

Pros: Very good odds on finishing the Temple. Symphony is likely to activate if we end up at 6/7. Free policy change.
Cons: Stability -2, Low Econ. Suicidal.

We finished the Temple! :V
-1 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, +2 Diplo
True City effect: +1 Econ Expansion

Economy 5 [-1]
Econ Expansion 7/11 [+1]
Temple Progress 4/(5-7?)
Stability -1

Pros: It's a [Main] Vineyard. This could result in a better Festival next turn instead of having to wait one more turn. People like [Secondary] Vineyard, but it could be a Main. We lock in the Vineyard before the provinces build over it.
Cons: Not too sure. This seems relatively balanced.
-2 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art
True City effect: +1 Econ Expansion

Economy 4 [-1]
Econ Expansion 8/11 [+1]
Temple Progress 4/(5-7)?
Stability 0

Pros: More stability and possible additional effects from Improving Annual Festival
Cons: Low Economy. Possibly more effective if we have a vineyard.
-3 Art, -1 Econ, +1 Legitimacy, +1 Stability, potential +1 Prestige
True City effect: +1 Econ Expansion

Economy 5 [-1]
Econ Expansion 8/11 [+1]
Temple Progress 4/(5-7?)
Stability 0

Pro: More stability.
Cons: High-ish Econ Expansion.
-1 to +2 Stability. Roll twice and take best.

This one I'm not too sure about since I don't really know the mechanics behind action ordering. Enforce Justice -> Restoration (capped at 0) -> Clan Stability loss will get us to -1 Stability even if we roll 2 on Restoration. Best case is Clan Stability loss -> Restoration (+2; capped at 0) -> Enforce Justice.

We're assuming we definitely get clan stability loss to make it easier to compare.

Economy 6 [-1]
Econ Expansion 7/11 [+1]
Temple Progress 4/(5-7?)
Stability -2 to +1 (But weighted to the higher end because we roll twice)

Pro: Chance of positive stability if Enforce Justice comes last.
Con: Enforcing justice at the same time is probably not the best, so we should take another secondary if we do this. Results of lowlands war may be nasty.

This is pretty risky since the lowland war may affect us negatively because of Cosmopolitan Acceptance. But that requires rolling -1 twice, getting the clan reform stability loss and then taking in refugees.
-1 to +2 Stability. Roll twice and take best.
Since we're assuming clan reform has -1 stability and we don't have [Secondary] Enforce Justice, Stability is -2 to start.

This one really depends on what secondary we choose.

There are no alternative stability raising options since they require a [Main].

Economy 6 [-1]
Econ Expansion 7/11 [+1]
Temple Progress 4/(5-7?)
Stability -3 to 0 (But weighted to the higher end because we roll twice)

Pros: We have another secondary action to use. This could be [Secondary] Build Vineyard, a study action or other econ manipulating secondaries. [Secondary] Study/Survey actions are "safe" because they don't take econ/activate True City.

Cons: We could just dissolve as a nation on a bad roll. Riskier because of Lowlands war and Cosmopolitan Acceptance. Can't restore stability with secondary actions unless we take Restore Order.

We probably don't want to do this. Restore Order just doesn't go well with Megaproject Support.
-5 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Martial, +2 Econ Expansion
True City effect: +1 Econ Expansion

Economy 4 [-1]
Econ Expansion 10/11 [+1]
Temple Progress 4/(5-7?)
Stability -1

Pros: Generates Diplomacy and lowers our Martial.
Cons: High Econ Expansion. Our True City is on the verge of collapse.
* M: -2 Econ; +1 Econ end of turn, +1 Econ, +1 Econ Expansion and Diplo next turn, additional effects, verge of innovation
True City effect: +1 Econ Expansion

Economy 4 [-1] (+2)
Econ Expansion 8/11 [+1] (+1 next turn)
Temple Progress 4/(5-7?)
Stability -1

Pro: Innovation!
Con: High Econ Expansion. True City is about to end.
All the non-star ones are -1 Econ.
True City effect: +1 Econ Expansion

Economy 5 [-1]
Econ Expansion 8/11 [+1]
Temple Progress 4/(5-7?)
Stability -1

Pro: Study actions have synergy with Love of Wisdom. Possible discoveries
Cons: High-ish Econ Expansion. Some of these eat Mysticism.

Since we're not likely to finish the Megaproject next turn, and we can trade it for a different Main action as long as we have Megaproject Support, I propose:


[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Build Vineyard
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support

with your choice of [Clan] vote. I'm not too invested in either of the changes.

This lets us finish the Temple in 2 turns and builds up a vineyard. Finishing the Temple in two turns instead of 4-6 saves us 2-4 study star actions (to negate Mysticism loss) and gives us a free policy change if we want to use it. Policy - Megaproject Support also frees up a Main action if we need it to handle anything that comes up.

EDIT: Added [Main] Restore Order (tl;dr: Don't bother); removed my Clan vote.
 
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[x] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
 
Therealtahu said:
If we really have to, we can replace our [][Main] Great Temple with something else at the cost of not having a chance of triggering Symphony. Besides, it's not really 5 actions this turn since combining provincial Secondaries into Main counts as one action.
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How is it that I keep getting quoted when I haven't been in this thread in like a week or two?

Eh, I suppose I might as well follow the quest again. Maybe a fresh outlook will make it more fun to play.

Time to do some binge reading I guess.
 
[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Build Vineyard
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
 
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Metal Workers

[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support

Vote change to Megaproject support, because forests won't win.
 
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
 
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
 
[x] [CA] Xohyssiri
[x] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)

[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Build Vineyard
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice

Vineyard is a must, before we lose it forever
 
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[x] [Secondary] Build Vineyard

[x] [CA] Metal Workers

[x] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
 
[x] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[x] [CA] Metal Workers
[x] [Main] Enforce Justice
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice x2
 
I've only really skimmed here, so forgive me if I've repeated brought up ideas.

Okay, first thing's first.

@Academia Nut I think I've found why our study actions tend to be too good (other than criting constantly). You tend to act like they're all empirical research rather than, say, just observing specific things around the world. The sanitation bonus came from us doing a large number of well thought out tests and interpreting the results. We specifically took parts of the meteorite and did experiments with them to see what would happen. It's slightly more permissible now that we have philosophy, but I still think it's a bit much to do that on a national level until we get something like academies. Instead, they should probably be treated as a sort of upgrade on Study Stars. Not very likely to generate actual tech, but possible, and give us mysticism as we consider the mysteries of the world. For extra fun you can keep track of how much we do it and have it effect our myths. May remain as is do to game balance or the fact we're at philosophy now, but I think it is what you should have done in the first place.

In addition, on the walls. River Confluence, Rainbow Trail, Lower Valleyhome, Bleeding Cliffs. These are all settlement locations I'm almost positive don't have walls on them, which would imply either some of the walls on the percentage covered are either redundant, a mistake was made, or I am very confused. It would be nice if you could, say, provide a percentage for how much area has no walls either way. Another thing you might consider is to create a province list in the front page that lists things like their settlements and what the status of their walls is. Not sure if that's getting too specific and away from the general catch all gameplay you've been trying to go for though. Perhaps it could be unlocked with further admin tech.

Now, to the thread in general. Man, you guys played a dangerous game, but you got philosophy out of it, so hard to argue with the results.

On the Mysticism tax. A Place to the Stars is definitely what should have been done. It's much more likely to give a place that just produces a study stars action every turn, where as the temple is more likely to, well I'd say it's more likely to give us a better stability boost option. Hard to complain about getting that, mind, but it probably isn't going to deal with the tax Philosophy is giving us. You also should have waited for a few turns while on the balance policy and then switched to super building megaprojects on the megaproject policy. Remember, Symphony effectively creates actions when both the nation and the provinces work towards a common goal. What is being pursued now is immensely inefficient. That said, balance policy really does need to cook for awhile, so it's probably a good idea to sit on it for one more turn regardless.

As for the tax Philosophy is giving us. Again, short term, A Place to the Stars is probably best. Long term, we want to see about founding academies.

As for the True City, I'm not sure it's actually a good thing, but I think we need to poke it a bit and see if we can get something out of it for now. Which segues nicely into what I want to talk about for this turn.

First, I think you're all being too concerned with the potential pitfalls of what the various clan votes could give us. Government always needs to be adjusted to meet the growing needs of the people, and corruption will always find a way and need to be stamped down. Our concern should not be corruption (unless it is stupidly obvious), but to how this advances our people and if it threatens other advancements. By focusing our government within the city itself, we will control how the city grows. That's what this vote should be considered to do.

So what's the difference between the two major ideas?
Academia Nut said:
Clan Reform
[] [Clan] Keep things the way they are (Cements Hereditary Nobility)
[] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[] [Clan] Roll everything back (Chance of stability loss)
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The first is hereditary nobility. We're already in an oligarchy, so this honestly doesn't do too much to hurt us, just ticks that little box of annoyance people have with inherited titles. It should be noted, however, that this will greatly improve our education in general. We don't have the necessary resources to educate everyone, but this will allow for education to be focused, especially in difficult jobs. Yes, this will harm social mobility, but most of that damage has already been done.

The next two should be discussed together. While they undoubtedly each have problems in the future for us to fix, they are roughly equal in those regards while offering similar, but different, advantages that are very important to how our city will grow. The geographic governing will likely focus on areas that, to put it in modern terms, would increase land value. This means parks and marketplaces are the most likely of things to come into existence under them. In terms of stats, this means we will be much more likely to see people favor city living and start increasing the tolerance of how many econ expansion slots can exist before a city deflates into a non true city as people move away. Meanwhile, occupational government is more likely to favor advancing trades. This means things like developing better techniques for making pots, to having groups of shamans debate how to tackle a problem. Stat wise, this will be more likely to create new technologies that can exist and benefit the whole nation. There will likely be some overlap here. Theaters for example, are realistically possible for either government form to push for.

The last one is a bad idea and should be ignored since it advances nothing when we have good options on the table.

That said, my vote is:
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Build Vineyard

While I think the temple was started improperly, I still want the balance policy to cook for one more turn before switching. As for the clan vote, I'm specifically aiming to try and create the basis for places to debate philosophy with the vote as we group up all of the educated together. I don't know how likely it really is, but I feel it's more likely under an occupational administration than it is under a geographical administration. We also need to continue trying to get greater good until we gain a better means of gaining stability. :(

Oh, and since our discussion can sort of determine what our provinces will do. I do hope they'll main more boats! It sort of makes sense to get it due to our renewed sea connections even! Also the tech advance should be very nice for them. They may get more walls in response to enforcing justice, though, or decide to take actions to favor keeping econ high and slots relatively low.
 
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[x] [Secondary] Restore Order
[x] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
 
[x] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Restore Order
[x] [Secondary] Restore Order x2

Still want centralization for new trails. As to switching to mega project support, you should at least wait a turn. We're at 3/4 Study Star actions in a row, and we've gotten really nice things out of it before (baby boom and meteorite quest). You'll also get close to losing true city status.
 
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[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
 
[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Build Vineyard
[X][CA] Xohyssiri
 
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