Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Its ok, one day we will be free of this, Technology is the best way to end slavery and anything even remotely like it
Tho having your whole post be link to me is something I have not seen before.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Tho having your whole post be link to me is something I have not seen before.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Generally right now the higher ups hold the cards to choose their replacements, but the clan system tended have enough simple seniority having you rise through the ranks that a lot of people could just go along with it because they were assured to eventually get a seat at the table. This will continue over no matter what options are chosen this turn, but the mechanisms for rising up will change.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Pbluekan may be going about it a little abrasively but he does have a point that we don't use the concept of ownership of people. Half exiles may fill the niche in our society that others use slaves for, but they on the whole do not qualify as slaves, due to how they live and are cared for, and that no one owns them. That particular concept of owning other humans doesn't even occur to the People. Sometimes the system fucks up and you get basically permanent half-exile status along with your kids but that is a result of corrupt assholes, and is fixed when found.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
I mean, how are you defining public education? It definitely didn't extend to people out in the hinterlands except for very occasional wandering monks - partly because doing so would hurt the scribe job and the ability of nobles to fuck over their peasants, motivating them to fight educational efforts - but was pretty dense in cities and towns near the monasteries, which fairly often offered educational classes in exchange for entertaining their conversion efforts.
What is the significant difference between rising up in the occupational and in the geographic systems?
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Emperor Wudi established a university to train his potential bureaucrats in Confucian... stuff, around 100 BCE.
I'm sure it wasn't a public school system and required you to pay, but it would teach you your future job and make it easier to pass the merit exams.
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Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Do you have any argument beyond an assertion and acting out the in universe pre-existing corruption?
Besides your two paragraphs contradict each-other, one is the idea that half-exiles can be from any group the other is that they are a group of underprivileged that is being deliberately perpetuated.
Once the idea that every group should have representation is formed the hypocrisy of half-exiles being deliberately cultured from underprivileged children becomes much more obvious and forces The People to figure out their stance on the issue.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Well those don't contradict tho
Half exiles CAN be from any group
but the reality is that their pretty much the underprivileged and our underclass
- Location
- Austria
We will always have too many things to do, so, uh, that's basically equivalent to "we will never do it", realistically.
- Location
- Staring into the void
We need to double main black soil, to stress the system, exposing the problem.Well those don't contradict tho
Half exiles CAN be from any group
but the reality is that their pretty much the underprivileged and our underclass
Heh, I feel extremely validated in my campaigning for the new god from our diplo hero. Mechanics represent the reality. Unless it's obviously bad, go with what gives you stats and techs.
Edit: and it should be noted that the vineyard doesn't give stats and don't have any techs listed, or even any additional effects at all.
Edit: and it should be noted that the vineyard doesn't give stats and don't have any techs listed, or even any additional effects at all.
You can just vote for both y'know.
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Just because it's not slavery doesn't mean that half-exiles aren't abused, which is a concern for the thread, but ultimately something we cannot fix yet, because we don't have the proper tools.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
You know you love it.
Not sure if @Academia Nut agrees however.Speaking of which~
War chief: are there reports of conflict between elites and regular farmer warriors? Like elites telling farmers to go home since they are not as good.
Spirit chief: are there idols of spirits? What does the holy sites look like?
King: Normally how long does a chief work a day? From dawn to dusk? Do they have days off?
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
It isn't fixed when found, because the people doing it are the people responsible for fixing it, and the people it's done to have a hard time reaching the King, who currently is the only neutral overseer.
Their allies own slaves so obviously it occurs to the people, it's just distasteful, which pushes people to think of half-exiles as "obviously being different!!"
At its worst, half-exiles are "cared for" in much the same way that an intelligent owner cares for their slaves - feeding them well and tending to their wounds so they can work harder. Obviously the interactions with shamans started from both necessity and the thought that this would cleanse them of corruption faster, but, in the north, it has by all appearances gradually changed to something different.
They do not contradict each other: one is the fact that half-exiles can be from any group the other is the fact that half-exiles are disproportionately from racial minorities and that this is being deliberately perpetuated, largely by the provinces in the north. Both of these are literal WoG facts, as I quoted earlier.
The vote is for occupation, i.e. Masons, farmers, etc. I see no reason why people who are believed to be spiritually corrupt (albeit theoretically temporarily) would be given much of a voice, especially if it's in the best interests of the people in power for this not to occur. Note that the occupational guilds will be divided geographically, such that members possessing certain dispositions toward the issue of half-exiles will be the ones in power where the issue is occurring the most outrageously. As noted in the quotes, people, especially half-exiles, rarely leave their village and thus communication and collaboration between different groups of half-exiles in order to push for an overarching representative body for their "occupation" is unlikely to occur.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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- Lickwidget
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This is a lot of my thinking on the matter. We may not have the tools, but I am trying to steer the Ymaryn to a point where they develop them.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Ah, i should clarify; my view of public education is a system which the government pays to educate at least 5-10% of the population aiming at the un-wealthy population.
If my understanding isn't clouded, then main method of attaining education during Han and Song relies on privately funded clan/family education. Which is far removed from farmers.
Emperor Wudi did set a historical record with the university that accepts non-nobles and lower social class; it also guided society to viewing education with great respect, since it formalizes education = government careers.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
vineyard gives diplo...? It's true that it doesn't have additional effects yet but that's occurred before, IIRC w/ expand forest, expand farms, expand fishing, etc. Besides, just look at what it led to for the Europeans. Speaking of diplomatic luxuries, we really should consider expanding snail cultivation at some point.
Enforce Justice + Festivals.
Stability in the neg just makes RoO available.
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Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Err, can i get a cite on racial minorities and the quote about the provinces in the north was about polgamy and the idea of many wives being prestigous causing them to suffer more from low stability and martial overflow not the half-exiles.
except we already have a farming chief and a construction chief etc, this is about organising it much more into roles in terms of their specific job creating many, many, more representatives.
Within a single city you mean. and saying that only those with "a certain disposition" about half-exiles will rise to power is blatant speculation, the current leaders today have no reason to worry about their heirs being more sympathetic
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Plus aside from that I don't think we quite have the social tools required yet to spot the issue even if we do double main black soil. Maybe. The Ymaryn have surprised me several times. I'll have to think about that one if the chance comes up.
We probably are not too far off from being able to support that resource-wise the issue will be encouraging the social development necessary to spark that one.
I agree with most of what you said, but where did you get "racial" minority. The People do not have that concept. Indeed the notion of race as we know it today is a relic of the age of exploration when the Europeans had to find some reason to keep their native slaves in chains once the latter had converted (thus invalidating the religious rationalization).
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Look at the other quotes I cited in the same post.
We don't have a half-exile chief.
I meant when we expanded it afterwards, assuming it works out. Valleyhome, the most benevolent of provinces in regards to half-exiles, is thus the worst test-bed in terms of hoping that a half-exile guild will be started.
IIRC when we talked about half-exiles in the north it was many-generations ago "immigrants" from the nomad tribes and etc. who were being most victimized. When they're from a clearly distinct lineage it's easy to point to that lineage as a reason for why all these different people are being selected.
Race is just the easy word as a person from our modern world.
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Eh, thought it was more specific but it was drawn partly from wording partly from the contextual discussion.
Edit 2: Also, it's not like the Romans didn't think about race when preferring Gaullic slaves for their coloring; or when the Chinese and Greeks declared people barbarians or instituted a foreigner/metic class. Admittedly, this was more about inside/outside, but often continued even for naturalized or native-born citizens.
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People say this every damned time. It's no more true now than it ever is - if something ends up put off forever, it's because we kept on coming up with better things to do with our time.
And in that case, it's all the better that it kept on getting put off.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Cite them specifically and point out the bit that you believe supports your argument then articulate why.
I think you may have missed my point entirely.
The people currently don't have the ideas that will allow them to recognise the systemic abuse of half exiles, thus my idea is to cultivate the view that everyone with a role in society needs a specific advocate that presents their needs and views to the chiefs.
Half exile guild won't be formed overnight, no matter what we do, what may happen is we'll get a belief that leads to options about what to do about half exiles.