[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Build Vineyard
[X][CA] Xohyssiri


We have the bread.

We'll get the wine.

And soon we'll have the games.


MUAHAHAHAHA.
 
So, roman apartments can be up to ten stories high. This is probably what we can expect at most for Valleyhome and other cities until modern time when someone invent the elevator and mass production of steel or engineered wood.
 
[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Build Vineyard
[X][CA] Xohyssiri

The shiny seduced me away from main enforce justice
 
Make them look delicious and I might care.
The intent was to catch the attention of people who are getting more involved than they meant to. The only time the flames start flying is when people's passions get enraged. I've done it a few times myself, and I find stepping back to look at cute animals helps me cool down. So I post images to catch those whose tempers are flaring unintentionally.
 
[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Build Vineyard
[X][CA] Xohyssiri

The shiny seduced me away from main enforce law
I think this is appropriate.

 
[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)

[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice x2

[X][CA] Xohyssiri

The part about the geographically linked administration that I like the most is that it is noticeably unfair. That means The People will complain about it and force reforms, which may finally lead to a republic. But before that we still need universal education for that to become practical, but we are well on the way for that, I think.

The Enforce Justice in terms of narrative, may also formalize the military some if we continue to regularly take it. After all, the King will likely send those warriors most often that he knows can keep a cool head and are reliable to not make a mess. From there it is a relatively short jump to making it institutional. So we either steer it towards a police force/city guard or with the recent fuckup still well remembered, organized military hierarchy so warriors know whom to listen to when shit hits the fan and/or the King knows whom to hold responsible.

It's of course gonna take a while, but we are getting a lot of stresses that should help with that. And Officers are at last in part an innovation based on a leader delegating tasks like corraling aggressive meatheads to someone else.
 
[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Build Vineyard

Prefer the study forest, but strategic voting.
 
But before that we still need universal education for that to become practical, but we are well on the way for that, I think.
Agreed. I think we're going there as fast as we reasonably can without slaves. (Universal education gets a lot easier when you get to redefine universal ala Sparta)
 
If all the poor people are clustered in districts, they will get votes equal to the number of districts they are in. If it's occupationally divided, they might only get a single vote.
False. Occupational division is explicitly going to account for populations. They will be further split up to ensure the chief to member ratio matches
Clarification: the voting within the occupational administration is exactly the same as the voting you already use.
See here.

And locks it in to hereditary too.
So does Geographical, unless you think people will start arranging districts so their children aren't the most likely to inherit.
The fairest voting system that i can think of is proportional multi-party voting - ave the whole city vote as a whole or in this case the "city council" who would, with our voting system, vote for the valleyhome chief. But that just puts individuals and unestablished groups at a disadvantage and coupd create political dynasties(which we already have anyway) so it just changes the problem.
Unfortunately we lack the administrative concepts to make it work
An important point about guilds. The majority of the people working in a given field (say, smelting) will have no voice.

Everyone below manager (master, in traditional guild language) doesn't have a vote. That's true in almost all guilds in RL as well. This choice is embedding oligarchy in our system more deeply.

On the other hand, while geographical STARTS oligarchical (roughly, the elders getting the job by tradition, acclaim of peers, and appointment by the elders) a districting system has been used successfully in the most democratic systems in the world.

We'll have more flexibility to move away from oligarchy in the future with districts.
Explicitly false.
Districts will cut the districts up in ways which leave the existing Oligraches in charge, only they are now land based families instead. Note that we do not have universal suffrage. That's a modern concept.

Occupational will cut the occupations into districts, which will TRY to leave the existing Oligraches in charge of everything...but cannot, because you have to be a member of a trade to be a master, and thus to be in charge. This means we will have an equalizing force, since our current leaders are not generally drawn from the artisan castes and never from the entertainer castes.

Both will entrench Oligrachies further. Districts will simply do it faster and more blatantly.
If you want social equality, go for Occupational. It means every career has some voice, even if there aren't many in the trade. It gives leverage to the common trades by cutting into the leverage of the noble families, through creating new families they cannot break into. These families will have different priorities from each other and from the existing nobles, so they create further political counterweights.

If you want to cement noble power, go for Geographical. It's exactly like a close packed version of our existing noble system, and the same people from the same backgrounds will wind up in charge.

If you want equal representation...get printing first. We aren't going to even LOOK like equal representation until it's cheap and efficient to track everyone.
If you want social mobility...get rid of Honor of Elites first.
 
Explicitly false.
Districts will cut the districts up in ways which leave the existing Oligraches in charge, only they are now land based families instead. Note that we do not have universal suffrage. That's a modern concept.

Occupational will cut the occupations into districts, which will TRY to leave the existing Oligraches in charge of everything...but cannot, because you have to be a member of a trade to be a master, and thus to be in charge. This means we will have an equalizing force, since our current leaders are not generally drawn from the artisan castes and never from the entertainer castes.

Both will entrench Oligrachies further. Districts will simply do it faster and more blatantly.
If you want social equality, go for Occupational. It means every career has some voice, even if there aren't many in the trade. It gives leverage to the common trades by cutting into the leverage of the noble families, through creating new families they cannot break into. These families will have different priorities from each other and from the existing nobles, so they create further political counterweights.

If you want to cement noble power, go for Geographical. It's exactly like a close packed version of our existing noble system, and the same people from the same backgrounds will wind up in charge.

If you want equal representation...get printing first. We aren't going to even LOOK like equal representation until it's cheap and efficient to track everyone.
If you want social mobility...get rid of Honor of Elites first.
None of that addresses my point. It's just a regurgitation of yours.
 
[x] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Restore Order
[x] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
 
[x] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Restore Order
[x] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
 
Actually, fuck that.
[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support

We need to build at least 3 Wonders as soon as possible. It's a textbook definition of ther use-case for megaproject support.
[X][CA] Xohyssiri
 
Aren't Half-exiles basically slaves by another name (albeit with far better conditions than actual slaves, and can be worked out of sometimes)
No, they're certainly not. Were the prison work gangs we used to use in the USA slavery? Those people are given that task as punishment for some crime or other, and eventually work out of it. They are people that refuse to work as hard as everyone else around them works. They get the shit work, but are given the same, or nearly the same rations as everyone else. They also have the option of leaving, with some rations to send them on their way. Regardless, besides their work detail, they are essentially regular members of society. They can marry, have kids, the works. Slaves cant leave. They can't marry. They aren't part of society.

Most importantly, THEY ARE NOT PROPERTY.

So, tell me, does this sound at all like slavery?

Is it slavery? No

Is it immoral by modern standards? Maybe.
 
Most importantly, THEY ARE NOT PROPERTY.
what? Slaves can marry and have kids, did you even study Rome or Greece?
I mean their technically property of the state, since our country doesn't really DO individuality for a lot, all work for the state, half-exiles just happen to be outcasted to an extent and do the worst jobs and due to corruption a portion of them are probably not even deservant, but maybe not right now
 
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[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Expand Forest
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
 
No, because Gerrymandering is not fixable at all in this era. We have plenty of WoG to the contrary.

Basically, it started as a good thing,

False representation:
-Geogaphical starts with immediate corruption because initial implementation is naive, generating major advantage for certain factions, which gets worse over time. The root problem is not fixable even in the modern age.
--Fixes require:
---Independent oversight - Not possible for more than a few turns before they get entangled too
---Travel restrictions - Possible
---Census - Not yet possible.
---Regular reassessment - Possible, but can backfire without Census and Independent Oversight. Can cause Stability hits.

-Occupational starts with lower corruption because initial implementation is naive, favoring the lower classes, which gets worse over time as advantages compound. The root problem is not fixable even in the modern age.
--Fixes require:
---District segmentation of guilds to ensure representation - Possible.
---Top down motivation to declare new trades - Possible, any guild growing too large will motivate other guilds to vote to split it up to reduce their monopoly.
---Arbitration court for dispute - Not yet possible
---Anti-trust/monopoly laws - Possible, but not likely until the Oligraches feel threatened and push these laws

The thing with Guilds is they are forces which developed over time, and are distinct from Unions in that they are the employers. Early guilds were engines for innovation because they had motivation to improve output and techniques, while once a guild gains enough control to be independent of other agents, they start to fossilize and become conservative.

Guilds encourage local forces to push against each other to achieve personal influence. It makes the local optimum action to divide power further. Whoever gains a lot of power will see others moving to split up the power further.

Districts encourage local forces to aggregate and compound power. Whoever gains a lot of power will be motivated to gain more power.


Look at simple Word of God.
We're going to be looking at the initial voting power of noble districts being close to 5-10 times that of the artisanal districts because nobles are spread over larger areas(so they can manage and stay in contact with more people) while artisans are packed in close(so the product of one artisan can be immediately utilized by another) for efficiency reasons.

Now, consider, in what world would the noble districts not vote to oppose reducing their voting power by merging?
How would the inequalities be addressed without the social and administrative tools to maintain and analyze the census status of the districts?

Basically, Occupational means a rising new noble class of elite artisans and potentially entertainers?
You replied to one word of my post.

False representation:
A. Neither Geographical nor Organizational are "naive"; both are extensions of our already existing geographical + organizational chieftain system.
B. Geographical:
1) Geographical is unlikely to get worse over time: it's already about as bad as it can get. It will in fact get better as it starts out with intense nepotism, which then gets combated as people grow outraged.
a) Yes, obviously nepotism/corruption is not "fixable" in the limited sense of "stopped by a single action, forever."
b) However, it *can be combated.*
c) This is literally just you bringing up all of the arguments we've had about corruption and handwaving it as "unfixable, and therefore unfightable."
d) I'm still disgusted by this.
2) Geographical doesn't require independent oversight, it requires citizen outrage.
3) We already have a census system, how the hell do you think people get food? luxuries? etc.??
4) Regular reassessment happens with every new person who enters at the lowest level or moves upwards.
C. Organizational
1) Occupational is likely to get worse over time: it's might not be as bad as it can get because the corrupt chieftains are likely to be using their power to ensure more efficient leaders win. It is unlikely to be combated by outrage because everyone in it is complicit in the system rather than outside. It is, however, likely to be far more heterogenous among guilds than the geographical system.
2) District segmentation of guilds is somewhat implied by WoG.
3) Any guild growing too large will possess the power to fight other guilds seeking to reduce their monopoly. Furthermore, declaring new trades is inherently not fighting a monopoly, as the new guild will have a monopoly over the trade it was founded upon. What is likely to instead happen is that superguilds and subguilds will be created to focus on trades within a greater occupation.
4) An arbitration court for dispute already exists in the form of the King.
5) Anti-trust/monopoly laws are unlikely to occur due to the definition of guilds as being divided by trades, with competing guilds for the same trade impossible, excepting the case that guilds from different districts somehow compete, which geographical distance makes unlikely.

Frankly, what we are currently facing is an issue of how our support networks (i.e. resource supplies, infrastructure, conflict management, crime fighting) will be set up. Will they be based on geography (i.e. a mayoral system, essentially a further subdivision of our geographical chieftainship) or on occupation (i.e. a guild system, essentially a unification among people of the same jobs; a refinement of our occupational chieftainships)?

In regards to infrastructure, inter-occupational conflict management, and crime fighting Geographical is the best choice. Infrastructure (housing, roads, aqueducts, wells, etc.) is inherently geographical. Crime fighting usually has a geographic basis. Interpersonal conflict between people of different occupations will be limited to those individuals, rather than expanding to an issue significant to two different ovarching entities. Finally, geographical will emphasize neighborhoods and communities, increasing the level of individual interpersonal support that occurs. This choice essentially brings us back to our roots.

In regards to support that is not based in social issues or infrastructure, Occupational is likely the best choice. Members of the same occupation will best know what resources someone of their profession needs. It is probable that - regardless of actual interpersonal familiarity - members of the same occupation will be interested in protecting other members of their profession, in helping them further develop their skills, and, finally, in lobbying for changes important to the guild as a whole. This choice essentially brings us to something of the modern setting, an era where actual emphasis on the community has ended, and what is left is a bunch of organizations struggling for power, with the upside that usually highly developed social ties are unnecessary. I.e., it's largely location independent.

In a geographic system, power is gained by having more voters. How do you get more voters? You a) force people to move into your district against their will or w/o it, which requires pulling on a higher power or b) make your district more appealing.
In an occupational system, power is gained by having people regard you with favor. How do you get favor? You a) suck up to people, or b) do something of actual merit.

Edit: Also, @Academia Nut How do people get voted into the "manager" position that you mentioned? They are picked by the managers, no?

Edit 2:
It's managers getting the job of manager by tradition, acclaim of peers, and appointment by the managers, who then vote on the director who votes on the mayor who votes on the governor who votes on the king.

K, so, you said this in response to the occupational issue, IIRC, but I assume it applies to both. Basically, you have employees and some employees get to the manager position due to nepotism (i.e. "tradition" and "appointment by the managers") with a dash of merit (acclaim of peers). This then just continues upward.

The issue is how it would work at the lowest level of the geographical choice. Are the "employees" citizens? Members of the leader caste? Initially the latter and eventually the former?
 
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[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Metal Workers
[X] (Main) Enforce Justice
[X] (Secondary) New Trails
[X] (Secondary) More Blackbirds
 
All politics will be corrupt or virtuous depending on the People who make them up. Instead of drastically changing our entire way of life like either of the two winning, 'better' options, we could just stay the way we are. You know, the system we ALREADY took the stab hit on and have spent a turn and a half working the bugs out of.

People didn't like the new system because it shook up the foundation of our people - family ties. What do you guys think turning people into guilds or district politicians will do?

EDIT: Actually, I'm not really clear how the clan system has to lead to hereditary nobility. Clans will always be powerful, they're powerful now, but we elect all our leaders at every level!
 
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what? Slaves can marry and have kids, did you even study Rome or Greece?
I mean their technically property of the state, since our country doesn't really DO individuality for a lot, all work for the state, half-exiles just happen to be outcasted to an extent and do the worst jobs and due to corruption a portion of them are probably not even deservant, but maybe not right now
By that first definition, our entire population is composed of slaves.

The whole point here, is that most of them do the shit jobs because they broke the law, or some tradition.

They are still free to leave, which is an important point.

Slavery is the institution of owning an individual as property, and having complete control over that persons life, should the owner wish it. That is a vastly different institution from half exiles.
 
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