Or maybe, just maybe, it will actually be more fair!
You know what appears more fair? Things that are more fair! How incredible is that?
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Make them look delicious and I might care.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
You claimed that WOG was that it was more fair. That's false. No amount of rhetoric will change that.
- Location
- United States
Occupational would put much more voting power in the hands of districts that have larger populations. That's basically what the U.S. has. It's not more fair, it's just a different kind of bad.
You're being aggressive and condescending, I suggest you take a break and come back.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Initial organization would be that districts would be mostly squares and rectangles attempting to capture about equal population per district.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay so number of votes is by population in the district. I.e each district gets X number of votes, with X dependent on pop size.
Hmmmm...
Yeah I need more time to think.
- Location
- Staring into the void
We have well defined borders for the city with the walls, and well laid out blocks of houses due to the renovations for the aqueduct. This should make geographically defined areas relatively easy to understand by the average person.
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[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Study Forest
I think I've been convinced by the back and forth to go for this. idk I might change again at some point.
*insert Why not both? gif* im feeling too lazy to find one
The Hathatyn seem to be a lot smaller than I thought they were, and should be easier to influence as a result. Only, it would require several trade missions to get a clearer picture of them and there are loads of other things that need doing. At the same time, the trade post would be very useful in influencing the MW and, probably, give us options for expansion in that area. Since I'm really not keen on entering the clusterfuck that is the lowlands, or expanding into the steppe, those are the only other options.
I'd probably vote for something like the trading post and a trade mission to the Hathatyn... so long as we fix our stability first and get a bit of a buffer. I think 3 stability would be a reasonable buffer tbh
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Study Forest
I think I've been convinced by the back and forth to go for this. idk I might change again at some point.
*insert Why not both? gif* im feeling too lazy to find one
The Hathatyn seem to be a lot smaller than I thought they were, and should be easier to influence as a result. Only, it would require several trade missions to get a clearer picture of them and there are loads of other things that need doing. At the same time, the trade post would be very useful in influencing the MW and, probably, give us options for expansion in that area. Since I'm really not keen on entering the clusterfuck that is the lowlands, or expanding into the steppe, those are the only other options.
I'd probably vote for something like the trading post and a trade mission to the Hathatyn... so long as we fix our stability first and get a bit of a buffer. I think 3 stability would be a reasonable buffer tbh
We can only see what appears! Yes, technically one of our decisions could turn out to be a time bomb ready to go off in another thirty turns, but guess what? Your vote is going to cause problems right now! Explicitly! ASAP! And if it appears to be more fair, then chances are that it is more fair-because if it looks like a duck, it's probably a duck!
On the other hand, Geographical looks like a dumpster fire! Guess what it probably is?
You think that it might be a little upsetting to get proven right more often than not and still get ignored? Like, the last decision that I actively campaigned for that I was wrong on was walling the valley cities against a resurgent Lowlander people.
And currently, it seems like people have been convinced by Lailoken of all people-someone who hasn't voted in the thread before this in my memory.
Yes, I am getting a little bitter about it.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
That's a good point. Our city is probably one of the easiest to make districts out of, since it's laid out intentionally like a modern city.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Well it's going to be complicated as we appears to be constantly tearing and rebuilding our structures. So that can be both boon and curse. And i'm on the side of "districts leading to well off people clustering together while poor people pushed together."
So location based organization is leery for me.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
To be nitpicky it's probably not organized like say Albuquerque is. Modern cities require different resource flows. However, if you simply meant that it was organized in a regular fashion and would probably make sense to a modern city planner when the Ymaryn's resource needs are accounted for then yes.
@Academia Nut
So. Do people walk from rooftop to rooftop like a second street? Are there skyways? Or is it more like a conventional urban pattern?
I wonder if we could build a bridge to the top of a wall from another hill.
So. Do people walk from rooftop to rooftop like a second street? Are there skyways? Or is it more like a conventional urban pattern?
I wonder if we could build a bridge to the top of a wall from another hill.
- Location
- Staring into the void
If all the poor people are clustered in districts, they will get votes equal to the number of districts they are in. If it's occupationally divided, they might only get a single vote.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Not an excuse
Even if true, irrelevant.
His thread longevity is also irrelevant. How good his ideas are, and how well he can argue for them are very relevant.
If you're so sure your ideas are good, you need to focus on the second. I'd want you to shut up if I was on your side in these recent posts. This condescending outraged attitude is alienating, not persuasive.
- Location
- United States
I don't particularly care how many people were convinced by who, as there are plenty of people who made the decision by researching it themselves.
Weren't you just shouting at veekie for convincing people to vote for the patch job option? Occupational is the exact same thing. It seems a bit hypocritical to bash others for voting on something, and then bash others for voting to repeal instead of keeping it.
Yes, some options were objectively better than others. Yes, you might've tried to get others to vote for it. Yes, other's might've been convinced by other people instead.
None of this is a free ticket to be so damn rude.
Also, i've noticed that you are downplaying the negatives of occupational in favor of exaggerating the negatives of geographical.
Sure... if a conga line of endless crits happens in the background. The entire point of the guild system is congregating those of one skill set under one banner for the benefit of that group. It exists for the benefit of that group. This is what guilds do. Sure there is stuff about teaching skills and centralizing for ease of contact... but it always ends up being all about promoting the guild.
Considering the amount of time I'm dismissed as wrong and what I saw happens anyway... and that you seem to completely ignore my posts that directly refer to the counters for what you just said... I feel kind of slighted by your embitterment.
Then again... I'm use to having to throw advice and concepts out turns before its acted upon and someone else gets the credit.
No, because Gerrymandering is not fixable at all in this era. We have plenty of WoG to the contrary.
Basically, it started as a good thing,
False representation:
-Geogaphical starts with immediate corruption because initial implementation is naive, generating major advantage for certain factions, which gets worse over time. The root problem is not fixable even in the modern age.
--Fixes require:
---Independent oversight - Not possible for more than a few turns before they get entangled too
---Travel restrictions - Possible
---Census - Not yet possible.
---Regular reassessment - Possible, but can backfire without Census and Independent Oversight. Can cause Stability hits.
-Occupational starts with lower corruption because initial implementation is naive, favoring the lower classes, which gets worse over time as advantages compound. The root problem is not fixable even in the modern age.
--Fixes require:
---District segmentation of guilds to ensure representation - Possible.
---Top down motivation to declare new trades - Possible, any guild growing too large will motivate other guilds to vote to split it up to reduce their monopoly.
---Arbitration court for dispute - Not yet possible
---Anti-trust/monopoly laws - Possible, but not likely until the Oligraches feel threatened and push these laws
The thing with Guilds is they are forces which developed over time, and are distinct from Unions in that they are the employers. Early guilds were engines for innovation because they had motivation to improve output and techniques, while once a guild gains enough control to be independent of other agents, they start to fossilize and become conservative.
Guilds encourage local forces to push against each other to achieve personal influence. It makes the local optimum action to divide power further. Whoever gains a lot of power will see others moving to split up the power further.
Districts encourage local forces to aggregate and compound power. Whoever gains a lot of power will be motivated to gain more power.
Look at simple Word of God.
We're going to be looking at the initial voting power of noble districts being close to 5-10 times that of the artisanal districts because nobles are spread over larger areas(so they can manage and stay in contact with more people) while artisans are packed in close(so the product of one artisan can be immediately utilized by another) for efficiency reasons.
Now, consider, in what world would the noble districts not vote to oppose reducing their voting power by merging?
How would the inequalities be addressed without the social and administrative tools to maintain and analyze the census status of the districts?
Basically, Occupational means a rising new noble class of elite artisans and potentially entertainers?
- Location
- United States
Can I tempt you to change one of your secondaries? A main EJ is unnecessary and will either put us at our centralization limit, or over it (which will prevent us from building trails). The extra stability isn't a guarantee anyways.
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- Location
- Staring into the void
And locks it in to hereditary too.
- Location
- Las Islas Filipinas
The fairest voting system that i can think of is proportional multi-party voting - ave the whole city vote as a whole or in this case the "city council" who would, with our voting system, vote for the valleyhome chief. But that just puts individuals and unestablished groups at a disadvantage and coupd create political dynasties(which we already have anyway) so it just changes the problem.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
An important point about guilds. The majority of the people working in a given field (say, smelting) will have no voice.
On the other hand, while geographical STARTS oligarchical (roughly, the elders getting the job by tradition, acclaim of peers, and appointment by the elders) a districting system has been used successfully in the most democratic systems in the world.
We'll have more flexibility to move away from oligarchy in the future with districts.
Everyone below manager (master, in traditional guild language) doesn't have a vote. That's true in almost all guilds in RL as well. This choice is embedding oligarchy in our system more deeply.
On the other hand, while geographical STARTS oligarchical (roughly, the elders getting the job by tradition, acclaim of peers, and appointment by the elders) a districting system has been used successfully in the most democratic systems in the world.
We'll have more flexibility to move away from oligarchy in the future with districts.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
AN said the districts would start with roughly equal population so current population density is irrelevant.
Future changes to population density will matter, since WOG says they will mess up frequent censusing and redistricting. But that's getting hard to predict.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It depends. In Florence guild membership required the legitimate son of a member, to give proofs of competence in the craft involved, and to pay an entrance tax. Now we work differently so the gender thing is right out because the Ymaryn would think it silly.
Other than that though, looking at it, it can cement hereditary. It might not as well. *shrug*
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