Actually, theres not enough evidence to protect it. Tree canker works on the scale of decades to get going.
Yeah and turns last generations which is about 3 decades. So if we start now by the second mid-turn we should be seeing the blight pop up again.

@Academia Nut just to be sure when we are managing forests our people sometimes see the blight before fixing it correct? Do our shamans occasionally see cases of 'starpox' and do our traders know if the other nations have 'starpox' problems? Also if we challenge our megaprojects will the challenge deadline increase or are we only getting one turn?
 
I think it's because we lost Nobility in Humility. We're so much more martially focused, we've lost a lot of the cultural incentive that we had to take pride in your work even if you're not out there fighting. We still have Symphony, but for the day to day stuff it's less potent.

Reasonable. I am sad that we lost that trait. And war might be on the horizon again. We might have to face the Metal Worker's conquered nomads.
 
Nothing was explicit about that.
Well its Explicit for US, ya know the whole, a guy told a guy who told a guy who told us.
Except even larger using people that don't know it can't be true
Like it was as explicit as is possible without just blatantly saying it
Edit: Like if your trying to prove magic, the lightning thing is the worse example to use.
 
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Hmm we should expand our boats in the future as preparation for the MW and this time we'll be the ones burning down settlements and causing a famine towards them.
 
You take a refugee volunteer NOT to take in the Warding, and then test if they can get infected by smallpox passing into pox regions.

Veekie's plan to test Warding is based on the speculation that smallpox is endemic in the lowlands right now, and that we can find a refugee to volunteer to be infected with smallpox. Which is deadly.

Neither of those is likely...
 
Well its Explicit for US, ya know the whole, a guy told a guy who told a guy who told us.
Except even larger using people that don't know it can't be true
Like it was as explicit as is possible without just blatantly saying it
Bynwyn thought it was a game of telephone, then he tried to steal the axe and the Spirit Talker shamans showed him what the fuck was up, spiritually-speaking. That's how I remember things.
 
Guys: THE BLIGHT IS FUCKING GONE! IT HAS BEEN FOR GENERATIONS! DO NOT TEST THE SACRED FOREST, IT WILL DESTROY OUR CONSERVATION EFFORTS THERE!
Read what sacred forest does. We're continually removing blight. There is no evidence I've seen for the blight being eliminated.
 
[X] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Forest (???)

Changing back my votes.
 
Bynwyn thought it was a game of telephone, then he tried to steal the axe and the Spirit Talker shamans showed him what the fuck was up, spiritually-speaking. That's how I remember things.
Well your remembering wrong, since nothing really happened that couldn't be explained, and that's saying it when were seeing a viewpoint that DOES see it spiritually but even then it does not show anything supernatural...
Sigh...
I know you guys want Magic, but it isn't happening or is so low tier it doesn't matter. Just refer yourselves to the past arguments
 
Citation needed. We don't know if it's endemic there right now.
Smallpox doesn't go away on it's own. It's been circulating in their populations on and off, for our part we've only really been infected whenever we went down there.
A citation from reality
Article:
It has been speculated that Egyptian traders brought smallpox to India during the 1st millennium BC, where it remained as an endemic human disease for at least 2000 years.

Overall, it's not leaving on it's own, it just takes a nap every so often.

How long does it take a managed forest to turn into a firetrap once it's stopped being managed?

I rather suspect that testing either of our wonders is likely to leave our wonders more-or-less intact and evolve observation, but hit us with a disaster that the wonder was protecting us from in turn.

Okay, so to help elaborate:
-Sacred Forest
--Sacred Forest includes a regime of deliberate reforesting of trees, performing controlled burns of diseased trees, directed harvesting of dead and live wood, as well as replenishing the soil with Black Soil(no longer needed really, by now the black soil layer is likely a meter thick)
--Tree Blight is caused by stressed trees, this depends heavily on the soil quality. As we've been replacing the soil with Black Soil, they are likely to ignore droughts for a long while even if we stop maintaining it.
--A forest without controlled burns with no deadfall harvesting, grown at orchard densities does not automatically become a firetrap. What you need is a few years of very short dry seasons and long wet seasons to build up a backlog of deadfall and debris, then followed by a drought to dry it out. Otherwise you'd only have seasonal small natural fires that burn out the leaf litter without causing lasting damage.
---This isn't happening much because we're harvesting deadfall aggressively to fuel our charcoal demands to feed our iron industry incidentally. And we've also greatly increased irrigation all over.

Why Sacred Forest might stay even if the belief is challenged and fails the challenge is our metal industry demands charcoal, our shipping industry demands fine timber, and so does our bows and chariots. Coupled to Divine Stewards, we'd likely change it to 'useful' plantations instead

But as practical qualities, tree farms for the purpose of timber is distinct from the artificially reinforced ecosystem we create, and more fragile to disasters.


-Sacred Warding
--Sacred Warding comes in two parts, the clinics to maintain the medical services, and the sacred herds we use to pass on the cowpox.
---Clinics provide improved healthcare overall, if you shut down a clinic, it will produce an uptick in minor diseases and all that just by not having people being cared for.
---Sacred herds provide a powerful ongoing supply of veal, which is a quality of life that's not really matched for the era.
--Smallpox remains endemic in the population of the lowlands, though less so in the nomads who don't meet the mmuch. How convenient then, that we can send trade missions right now to the lowlands to pick up fresh samples.
--Vaccination needs to be missed from birth to stop working entirely. How convenient then, that we just took in refugees war-loot who aren't vaccinated, allowing us to skip a generation's wait in testing the theory.

Odds are good that we will keep parts of Sacred Warding even if the process of challenge fails. The clinics provide real and quantifiable effects to population health. The Sacred Herds produce such quantities of high quality meat that people are unlikely to want to stop even if it wasn't a religious duty.

But as practical qualities, we'd likely lose the chain of cowpox if it's not tested adequately against smallpox. Why, after all, should we relay diseases from cow to cow on purpose if it does nothing?
 
Honestly, not challenging Sacred Forest and Sacred Warding is probably a trap. We'll have to believe in the Ymaryn that they can do this and not wound up with a false negative.

Otherwise, this wouldn't be a challenge.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by pblur on May 24, 2017 at 11:51 PM, finished with 40612 posts and 39 votes.
 
[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
Smallpox doesn't go away on it's own.
Again, your argument is completely based on a false premise. Smallpox came and went.

Edit: Also vaccination results are the direct opposite of measurable prestatistics. They have exactly the same measurability as a placebo ritual until you get sick. And since you don't get sick, the difference isn't very measurable at all.
 
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[X] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)
We now have more boats and still need to get a better picture of the southwestern coast of the sea. Additionally getting out there more will allow for more chance of innovation.
[X] Stallion Tribes
Not really attached to this one way or the other, but we don't really need the econ and we're close to a golden age so might as well avoid stability loss and make it easier to get there.
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
We need to risk something to beat this challenge and the sacred warding has testable positive effects backing its continued existence. Even if we lose it to this, or create an anti-vaccine harmful belief we'll likely keep the underlying idea and after the next smallpox outbreak will get a motion pushing to support a project re-creating it.

In the long run we do need to do something to counter Observance's negative effects. Better to do it now then to leave for for later. Getting the early challenge completion bonus is worth it.
 
Veekie's plan to test Warding is based on the speculation that smallpox is endemic in the lowlands right now, and that we can find a refugee to volunteer to be infected with smallpox. Which is deadly.

Neither of those is likely...
Actually, yeah, it is definitely endemic to their population. It was endemic to human populations in the old world for thousands of years until the vaccine was created. We also have a very selfsacrificing society that does things for the greater good. We have two whole cultural and honor values that dictate it. This is very testable and provable with empirical data. Furthermore the whole thing was first brought about by a scientific method of testing and observance.

Sacred forest, not so much. Sacred forest was brought about by Blight caused by people leaving the forest for more settled areas. This was a fungus that fed on a stress response in the trees; trees died and soil eroded into the sea. People noticed the sick tres and started cutting them away and planting new ones. These days. Our population is too high for the Blight to return. There won't be a significant stress response in a timely manner for the people to observe it properly. It takes decades. They won't really even be able to realize the effects.

Questioning sacred forest is a risk to a pillar belief of our society that we should not be testing until we have better scientific observance abilities. Sacred forest underpins much of the environmental conscientiousness that we see in Divine Stewards. Frankly, I don't want to risk it.

[X] Stay at home, garden (Main Expand Econ)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
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Well your remembering wrong, since nothing really happened that couldn't be explained, and that's saying it when were seeing a viewpoint that DOES see it spiritually but even then it does not show anything supernatural...
Sigh...
I know you guys want Magic, but it isn't happening or is so low tier it doesn't matter. Just refer yourselves to the past arguments
Okay, that's the star axe explained logically.

Then, the ten years of evil weather directed at the lowlands that broke the Dead Priest empire, and the giant talking earth-mouth?
 
And I change my mind again. AN is evil.

[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
Managed Forrest isn't just about the blight, but also keeping fire load down and prevention of soil erosion. Testing those will take less than a decade.

Edit: better explanation done by vekkie.
 
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Okay, that's the star axe explained logically.

Then, the ten years of evil weather directed at the lowlands that broke the Dead Priest empire, and the giant talking earth-mouth?
What talking earth mouth?
The Evil Weather? What
OH you mean the Spirit Talkers predicting the weather?
The same way we do, Watching the stars and seeing the patterns. They predicted a storm on the priests-precusors that TOOK like 50 years to come to fruition and it didn't hit JUST them. it hit EVERYONE
 
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