Paths of Civilization

Andres · May 17, 2017

veekie said:
Uh, no, that's the advantage of a March. We can already spend actions on building stuff for them. E.g. the proposed forest we were originally going to plant for them. We've simply never been motivated to do so.

If you don't believe me, you can check with @Academia Nut
An Integrated March/Colony/Trading Post just becomes a normal province, losing it's own action spread, risk of cultural divergence and independent resource pools in exchange for absorbing their standing resource pool and half a province action.

Fair enough.

Academia Nut · May 17, 2017

veekie said:
An Integrated March/Colony/Trading Post just becomes a normal province, losing it's own action spread, risk of cultural divergence and independent resource pools in exchange for absorbing their standing resource pool and half a province action.

Yes, this is correct.

highs2lows · May 17, 2017

[X] [Main] Expand Forests - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Expansion
[X] [Secondary] Build Chariots

notgreat · May 17, 2017

Wow. I go to sleep and wake up to a lot of votes agreeing with my plan. A pleasant surprise considering how late it came into being.

The vote tally is really close, every vote matters now!

Anyway, now that we have more information about how it works, it seems to me like making a second March would be extremely valuable. Getting 8 actions per turn dedicated to war would be really nice. Obviously not right now, but after the iron mine opens up, we should build that second March to fight off the nomads.

@Academia Nut
Mechanically, how do the trading or resource periphery states send their associated stat to us? Do both of them get the full 1/2 action spread like the March?

highs2lows · May 17, 2017

Hangwind said:
Why do people want Carriom Eaters so badly?

They minimize loss of martial by allowing the wounded to pass on their knowledge. I wouldn't be averse to having them as a secondary next turn.

Academia Nut · May 17, 2017

notgreat said:
Mechanically, how do the trading or resource periphery states send their associated stat to us? Do both of them get the full 1/2 action spread like the March?

They get the full action spread. Once properly established they will also start to send resources back and can become like the saltern and have a guaranteed per turn income. Colonies are also the periphery state that are most likely to want to reintegrate after a few turns since they can be used for rapid growth. With the extraction of metal now being more important they can also send back resources that can give Econ gain for having greater access to tools.

Umi-san · May 17, 2017

notgreat said:
Anyway, now that we have more information about how it works, it seems to me like making a second March would be extremely valuable. Getting 8 actions per turn dedicated to war would be really nice. Obviously not right now, but after the iron mine opens up, we should build that second March to fight off the nomads.

I don't think building a second march will have a point. All it would do is create a new area of unprotected and unfortified land. The current March covers enough of our border to provide good protection. If you want it to be stronger, direct actions toward it.

The only case in which establishing a March has great merit is in doing @veekie 's triangle and then reabsorbing the March, which will no longer be greatly exposed. But even then, we could instead direct actions toward expanding their settlements in that direction.

Edit: I'd rather do our current trading post and colony options, but even then we only have 1 slot left until our prestige raises.
Edit 2: Yes, it would create more actions. But the actions they'd be doing would be the same as the current march, and with less strength than a strengthened march would perform them with.

Reader of all · May 17, 2017

So how about we build a low lands colony support them to have them establish themselves then integrate them once they have made headway into the lowlands.

Umi-san · May 17, 2017

Reader of all said:
So how about we build a low lands colony support them to have them establish themselves then integrate them once they have made headway into the lowlands.

When/if that becomes an option, I would be interested.

Kiba · May 17, 2017

Man. People are always saying we should settle the lowland this or that. I don't want to expose the lowlanders to the concept of fortifications, much less be the receiving end of a war.

It's bad enough that we were forced to fight a two front war against the nomads and the Thunder Speakers, nevermind the Thunder Horse.

Reader of all · May 17, 2017

Umi-san said:
When/if that becomes an option, I would be interested.

I think we already can all we have to do is vote

[] [main] Found Colony-Lowlands

Not right now of course we still have the nomads to deal with but is ever we are in double digit econ and martial again we should found one

notgreat · May 17, 2017

highs2lows said:
I wouldn't be averse to having them as a secondary next turn.

Getting them as a main gives us a tech advancement. Blackbirds gave us composite bows. As a secondary they're mostly just inefficient, and likely won't have enough numbers still to really matter.

Umi-san said:
The current March covers enough of our border to provide good protection. If you want it to be stronger, direct actions toward it.

They would be able to defend further expansion into the hills, since the new March would be in the Northeast.

Reader of all said:
So how about we build a low lands colony support them to have them establish themselves then integrate them once they have made headway into the lowlands.

Sounds like an excellent way to get involved in the lowlands 3-way clusterfuck. Unless Iron is even more ridiculous than I'm expecting, just staying out and expanding literally anywhere else would be better.
Yes, even to the nomads. Expanding to the nomads would be painful, but not as painful as expanding to the lowlands.

@zamin
Just checking, you are aware that that wasn't the bandwagon, right? Bleeding Cliffs is almost certain to be automatically done by the provinces under Expansion, so we can get more Martial in case the nomads come back. A few people were voting for it just to be 100% sure of taking it instead of 99%, but those definitely weren't the bandwagon.
(Sorry if you were aware, just the vote didn't seem to line up with your text)

Wellhello · May 17, 2017

[X] [Main] More Carrion Eaters
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
[X] [Secondary] Build Chariots

Karugus · May 17, 2017

Yeah, if we're going to be throwing down more Marches/colonies anytime soon, it should be into the Lowlands not the steppe. We can't even use the excuse about it being too bloody by this point, or being bogged down in perpetual war- especially with iron.

Kiba · May 17, 2017

Karugus said:
Yeah, if we're going to be throwing down more Marches/colonies anytime soon, it should be into the Lowlands not the steppe. We can't even use the excuse about it being too bloody by this point, or being bogged down in perpetual war- especially with iron.

I prefer to throw a colony oversea, maybe an island where wars can't reach them. Become a seafaring power and colonize the fuck out of forested area.

DocMatoi · May 17, 2017

Karugus said:
Yeah, if we're going to be throwing down more Marches/colonies anytime soon, it should be into the Lowlands not the steppe. We can't even use the excuse about it being too bloody by this point, or being bogged down in perpetual war- especially with iron.

Obviously that won't be for a couple turns yet, after we actually get iron widespread

Reader of all · May 17, 2017

Kiba said:
Man. People are always saying we should settle the lowland this or that. I don't want to expose the lowlanders to the concept of fortifications, much less be the receiving end of a war.

It's bad enough that we were forced to fight a two front war against the nomads and the Thunder Speakers, nevermind the Thunder Horse.

You can never win by always being on the defensive sometimes you need to take what you want and hold it until everyone in the area accepts that it is yours if not they get beaten down until they do

notgreat said:
Sounds like an excellent way to get involved in the lowlands 3-way clusterfuck. Unless Iron is even more ridiculous than I'm expecting, just staying out and expanding literally anywhere else would be better.

We should not wait for war like it or not the lowlands will not be in war forever and the civ who will rule all of the lowlands will seek to conquer us next plus the Ymmari are woefully under experienced compared to the other civs so we need to get our warriors bloodied for greater martial innovation

veekie · May 17, 2017

Umi-san said:
I don't think building a second march will have a point. All it would do is create a new area of unprotected and unfortified land. The current March covers enough of our border to provide good protection. If you want it to be stronger, direct actions toward it.

The only case in which establishing a March has great merit is in doing @veekie 's triangle and then reabsorbing the March, which will no longer be greatly exposed. But even then, we could instead direct actions toward expanding their settlements in that direction.

Edit: I'd rather do our current trading post and colony options, but even then we only have 1 slot left until our prestige raises.
Edit 2: Yes, it would create more actions. But the actions they'd be doing would be the same as the current march, and with less strength than a strengthened march would perform them with.

Basically as I outlined above, wait until the March is fully fortified to the gills completely settled, then integrate them and crap out a new March to repeat the Steppe-walk.

Reader of all said:
So how about we build a low lands colony support them to have them establish themselves then integrate them once they have made headway into the lowlands.

Can't, the sites have certain site requirements:
-Colony - West of Black River. This is of course, extending our border with the Nomads. Not such a brilliant plan at present. Too vulnerable.
-March - Northeast(i.e. covering Stonepen until the Thunder Speaker valley). Actually highly valuable strategically since it'd mean that the Stallion Tribes can focus on the Nomads, while the Northeasters can focus on the Thunder Speakers from the north, denying them a second flank to pound us from. Just...probably should make sure we have the resources for it and preferably do it when the Twin Thunders are busy elsewhere.
-Trading Post - Metal Workers. This is mostly useful if we wanted to assimilate the Metal Workers later, since I have NO IDEA how we'd even connect a periphery state that far away enough to integrate.

But before all that, please leave Defense on long enough to actually finish Walling everything up so we can do all these things without spending bullshit amounts of actions and economy building defenses after they get reamed. Again.

Reader of all · May 17, 2017

Hmm @Academia Nut is it possible to found a colony in the low lands?

Kiba · May 17, 2017

Reader of all said:
You can never win by always being on the defensive sometimes you need to take what you want and hold it until everyone in the area accepts that it is yours if not they get beaten down until they do

And fighting a two front war is utterly stupid.

Reader of all said:
We should not wait for war like it or not the lowlands will not be in war forever and the civ who will rule all of the lowlands will seek to conquer us next plus the Ymmari are woefully under experienced compared to the other civs so we need to get our warriors bloodied for greater martial innovation

We always have nomads to war with. We don't need to wage war with the lowlanders.

Academia Nut · May 17, 2017

Reader of all said:
Hmm @Academia Nut is it possible to found a colony in the low lands?

Not at the moment, there isn't any unsettled territory both far enough away and easily accessed enough that you wouldn't settlement walk over there first.

Reader of all · May 17, 2017

Kiba said:
And fighting a two front war is utterly stupid.

We always have nomads to war with. We don't need to wage war with the lowlanders.

I am not saying now of course and you are right that we will always have nomads to fight against but so long as we keep our march strong and maybe make another march we can minimize their effects against us. Right now the best time to go conquer the lowlands is when we have fully integrated iron and have double digit econ and martial this allows us to keep whatever settlement we found.

veekie · May 17, 2017

Reader of all said:
I am not saying now of course and you are right that we will always have nomads to fight against but so long as we keep our march strong and maybe make another march we can minimize their effects against us. Right now the best time to go conquer the lowlands is when we have fully integrated iron and have double digit econ and martial this allows us to keep whatever settlement we found.

I'd prioritize settlement walking across the entire hill block and then stepping south only when we have standard city walls of some kind, using the hills as a supply core.

Though...
@Academia Nut
Curiosity here: How close are we to unlocking a Great Wall project of some kind after recent events?

Duesal · May 17, 2017

@Academia Nut, once currency shows up and we stop getting diplomacy every turn from our Saltern, do we get economy out of it instead?

notgreat · May 17, 2017

Reader of all said:
You can never win by always being on the defensive sometimes you need to take what you want and hold it until everyone in the area accepts that it is yours if not they get beaten down until they do

I've won many a games of StarCraft by expanding my economy and military such that when their attacking force gets crushed they simply concede.

It's even easier in a multiplayer free-for-all, where people will sometimes just ignore you.

Basically: everyone's fighting over the gold mineral base in the center, we just grab three normal bases and laugh.

Paths of Civilization

Procrastinating.

Procrastinating.

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