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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Main] Expand Forests - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] Support Subordinate - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Expansion

Guess we need to Still need to build back up Happening levels before we Press the Button armed with the Weapons of the Gods.
 
[X] [Main] Expand Forests - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] Support Subordinate - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Expansion

Forgot to change policies. I want to take a moment to catch our breath and recuperate,
 
I don't know what to vote for - I just know that the worst thing you can do when fighting nomads is to go into their lands without extereme number-disparity or tech-advantage.
 
Candesce said:
Several of our secondary martial recruitment actions don't use econ.

If we're not shipping men and material off with a support subordinate action, maybe our provinces will poke once, but we'll be at something like 10 military for it, so in the worst case they're lost disrupting a nomad attack on our march.
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This is really important. The provinces only send off war missions if they can't afford to build up Martial strength, and apparently that's pretty much impossible this turn. We don't need to worry about losing troops to an ill-advised province attack, so changing policies is a waste of an action.
 
Yeah, we can give the marches more breathing room and change policies to expansion. Our provinces will then settle the RedCliffs (unlocking the iron deposit), expand econ, and expand forest (maybe).

We don't need to settle the red cliffs ourselves.

Edit: Letting our provinces charge after the nomads (who are still very strong and have a heroic general) is incredibly stupid. I don't care if we have martial to spare, because we'd be effectively throwing it away for very little gain.
 
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Full explanation:

1) [Secondary] Policy Change - Expansion
This is the primary part of the plan. Our provinces will expand to at least 2, very likely 3 different places. With only 4 locations and our provinces not being idiots, Bleeding Cliffs is extremely likely. As such we don't need to expand there manually.
This will also provide us with constant econ and mysticism to feed our war machine. They'll also Expand Forest automatically if we give them a bit of spare econ, which we should have available after we finish building the iron mine.

2) [Main] Carrion Eaters
These guys are a tiny force right now, we should get more to make sure they don't die out due to bad luck on a war mission sometime. edit: Also it provides some sort of advancement, plausibly to our medical procedures or to our troop morale or something.

3) [Secondary] Build Chariots
Thanks to our new Elites honour code, this is our most efficient martial-gaining action (tied with its main). We need more martial if our provinces aren't doing it, so we should do it.

Against the currently winning vote:
1) [Main] Expand Forests
Expansion has a chance of doing this on their own, which would be nice. If not though, it's not a big problem. It takes several turns for the forest to grow, and right now our primary fear is that the nomads are simply rebuilding their forces for a second attack wave.

2) [Secondary] Support Subordinate - Stallion Tribes
This action is horrible. Flat out inefficient. If you want to do this, just send a War Mission out instead. But we don't want to do a war mission since they might be trying to draw us in and hit us. Due to our tech, it's "incredibly inefficient".

The March will take [Main] Build Chariots, almost guaranteed. This means that their Martial score will be 5, enough to hold off the nomads until we arrive during a mid-turn action if the nomads do a massive attack wave.

Basically: Support Subordinate will do nothing except harm our ability to aid them via War Missions should they fall under attack.

redzonejoe said:
This, however, means you're voting for three secondaries at once. And while nobody is likely to go through the vote counter and nullify your vote as a result, it's still rather unfair of you to do so.
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Don't see any rule against it. Obviously only 2 secondaries will win, but I'm not voting for my plan if it'd risk the incredibly inefficient Support Subordinate action winning instead.
Candesce said:
Several of our secondary martial recruitment actions don't use econ.
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The only ones that do that are Blackbirds and Carrion Eaters, both of which eat 1 Mysticism. We have 2 Mysticism available, which means provinces will only use a maximum of 1. That eats a single secondary.
They'll also have 2 econ available to them since we're building forests. That's 2 more actions taken.
They have 5 actions between them and The Law. Only 3 of them can be spent on raising more troops.

We are guaranteed a [Main] War Mission - Nomads if we don't switch policies immediately.
 
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Candesce said:
Or, better idea, we drop the "support subordinate" action. Because a minor increase to survivability of our march this turn doesn't help if it destroys our ability to defend it every turn after.

Meanwhile, policy: expansion means we're not fixing our military - which has dropped to six. We need to fix that.
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We have Econ 4, they won't expand it a lot. And Expansion can give us iron settlement.
As for military...Stallions need it more now, with heroic nomad still out there and lowlands fighting each other.
 
[X] [Main] Expand Forests - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] Support Subordinate - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - Bleeding Cliffs
 
notgreat said:
2) [Secondary] Support Subordinate - Stallion Tribes
This action is horrible. Flat out inefficient. If you want to do this, just send a War Mission out instead. But we don't want to do a war mission since they might be trying to draw us in and hit us. Due to our tech, it's "incredibly inefficient".

The March will take [Main] Build Chariots, almost guaranteed. This means that their Martial score will be 5, enough to hold off the nomads until we arrive during a mid-turn action if the nomads do a massive attack wave.

Basically: Support Subordinate will do nothing except harm our ability to aid them via War Missions should they fall under attack.
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We aren't doing it to support them in attacking, we're doing it to generally pick them back up after that turn and - crucially - not trigger the Con of our new Honour value, which expects us to be unusually proactive in supporting our Subordinates. It's absolutely a political decision, but it's one that we really need to take.
 
notgreat said:
We are guaranteed a [Main] War Mission - Nomads if we don't switch policies immediately.
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Eh.

Fair enough.

[X] [Main] More Carrion Eaters
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Expansion
[X] [Secondary] Build Chariots

Mostly a tactical vote to dodge the oncoming forest / settle / support clusterfuck bandwagon, because I'd be willing to tolerate a single [main] war mission into the nomads at ~10 military, but not two at ~6.
 
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Candesce said:
Several of our secondary martial recruitment actions don't use econ.

If we're not shipping men and material off with a support subordinate action, maybe our provinces will poke once, but we'll be at something like 10 military for it, so in the worst case they're lost disrupting a nomad attack on our march.
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Huh. Could use mysticism for blackbirds or carrion eaters... Not exactly the most offensive of troop units though... only two mysticism available... If we spend one econ on forests, that means two spendable econ and two spendable mysticism for 4 actions... But how likely is it that they'll spend 2 econ in a single main action, leaving room for war? Still, it would mean *mumble mumble*

Nevermind that!

notgreat said:
We're extremely likely to expand to Bleeding Cliffs with Expansion Policy.
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This is important! It means we have an action freed up, which we can spend on Military to keep us up to par.

If we have 4 econ now, we can spend one on main forest, and one on military giving us +2 martial, which isn't a whole lot but it also means we wont launch any ill-advised offensive wars, we'll have forest barrier in place asap, and we'll very likely expand to the iron location and elsewhere. We'll gaining in econ, mil and mysticism, which are our core concerns atm.

Plan prep for the future is go

[X] [Main] Expand Forests - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Expansion
[X][Secondary] Build Chariots

Alright, now somebody tell me why I'm wrong.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
and - crucially - not trigger the Con of our new Honour value,
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Academia Nut said:
Cons: Minimum force commitment in defence of subordinates and allies increased one step, worse consequences for failure to assist
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In other words: we're now required to aid them if they come under attack. If we don't, then we get penalized.
This does not mean that failing to Support Subordinate will get our people immediately angry with us. It does mean that we absolutely need a strong economy and martial score so that we can aid them in the mid-turn should they come under attack, since if we're at low martial or econ we won't be able to aid them and thus will take a significant penalty.

And without a policy change, we'll be running really low on econ. We'll have a fairly safe martial score, but there's a good chance it'll just be eaten up from the automatic War Mission that it'll launch.

redzonejoe said:
Alright, now somebody tell me why I'm wrong.
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Forests can come from Expansion, but more importantly they don't really help in the short term since they take a while to grow. When our primary fear is that the Nomads will just human wave swarm us again, long-term defenses are less effective than just getting more warriors (in this case, Carrion Eaters to both save them from dying out since they've never been expanded and to get their tech advancement).
 
[X] [Main] More Carrion Eaters
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Expansion
[X] [Secondary] Build Chariots

Fine changing vote but no matter what I am voting for a Proclaim Glory next turn
 
Candesce said:
Eh.

Fair enough.

[X] [Main] More Carrion Eaters
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Expansion
[X] [Secondary] Build Chariots

Mostly a tactical vote to dodge the oncoming forest / settle / support clusterfuck bandwagon, because I'd be willing to tolerate a single [main] war mission into the nomads at ~10 military, but not two at ~6.
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Thaks to Stallions, we are not going to be hit with nomad attacks, they shield us. Which is why, specifically when fighting nomads, their military means much more than ours.
Why do people vote to both change policy and manually settle though?!
 
notgreat said:
Forests can come from Expansion, but more importantly they don't really help in the short term since they take a while to grow. When our primary fear is that the Nomads will just human wave swarm us again, long-term defenses are less effective than just getting more warriors (in this case, Carrion Eaters to both save them from dying out since they've never been expanded and to get their tech advancement).
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The best time to blah blah 20 years ago, blah blah now.

I'm honestly not particularly concerned about the nomads coming back next turn. Their martial score is gonna be smarting. In addition, this plan does include building up only slightly less martial than your own. I am concerned about them being a long term nuisance, expanding forest helps with that considerably. Relying on the policy to expand forests when we're low on econ and they've never actually done so, and that it'll be in the right area feels like more of a risk than not building carrion eaters, who don't really seem to be at risk.

Most importantly, my plan takes the high popularity of expand forest into account, instead of fighting against the bandwagon. It's a good strategic compromise satisfies all goals (except the less urgent proclaim glory).
 
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notgreat said:
2) [Secondary] Support Subordinate - Stallion Tribes
This action is horrible. Flat out inefficient. If you want to do this, just send a War Mission out instead. But we don't want to do a war mission since they might be trying to draw us in and hit us. Due to our tech, it's "incredibly inefficient".

The March will take [Main] Build Chariots, almost guaranteed. This means that their Martial score will be 5, enough to hold off the nomads until we arrive during a mid-turn action if the nomads do a massive attack wave.
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They are at Econ 1, they do not have resources at all to restore their army on their own fast enough; they are borderline starving there.

So, your 'they will take Main Charoits' is false because they *can't*.
 
Plugging in my vote again for anybody who missed it.

[X] [Main] Expand Forests - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Expansion
[X] [Secondary] Build Chariots



Here's a checklist of what we want out of this turn.


Forest defensive barrier: Yes
More Martial: Yes
Expanding to settlement: Almost certainly
More legitimacy: Nope
Supporting March: Midturn if necessary
More econ: Yes
More mysticism: Yes
More Art: via diplomacy
More diplomacy: Lol we maxed out

Choose the actions that hit all the check marks and put us in position to fix the rest of our issues next turn!
 
I can´t say how much i hate the Nomads at the moment.
Them trying to burn down part of our nation ...

So hopefully they let us alone after this (pretty sure that won´t happen ...) for at least a turn or two.
How do we plan to deal* with them in the long term ?
An ever expanding Forest that slowly eats the plains ?


*what can we do to shut up the nomads even if it takes several millennia, after all we have time and a grugde to settle.

[X] [Main] More Carrion Eaters
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Expansion
[X][Secondary] Build Chariots
 
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