keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
[X] Protect him and have him teach his knowledge (-4 Stability, -2 Legitimacy, -10 Mysticism, -10 Art, -2 Prestige, chance of infuriating the Metal Workers, gain Iron Smelting study chain)
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Good now tell me how exactly do you intend to abuse this information?
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
By... developing Iron and pwning nubs with it?
I know your anti-iron but I really don't get what your trying to say here
- Location
- U.S.
reminds me of the old Chinese story about the emperor who just built the great wall to protect his city then seeing one of his citizens create a way for a man to fly, the man showed it to the emperor and the emperor killed the man to keep the secret of flying from being known so no one could just bypass the walls. sad story.
- Location
- From the moon
...Who cares if one is to die than why should it be one of darkness and despair? No we shall walk forever more forward towards the light.. and if that's not possible we'll make our own light. Also metaphors aside screw that. The story sucked anyway and has no story to really teach.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ugh, oligarchic switch cause of Quality (and maybe an associated crit fail) 
And ughhh hard choice... @Academia Nut what exactly would we get just from this choice? we'd know how to smelt iron, presumably one of hte really primitive types*, and we'd needto spend an action to get a mine up, but would we know how to make it into tools without spending more actions?
*like...doesn't one of the earlier ways of smelting iron produce not-very-useful iron?
And ughhh hard choice... @Academia Nut what exactly would we get just from this choice? we'd know how to smelt iron, presumably one of hte really primitive types*, and we'd needto spend an action to get a mine up, but would we know how to make it into tools without spending more actions?
*like...doesn't one of the earlier ways of smelting iron produce not-very-useful iron?
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Iron working, an ultimate game changer, millennia before others get it, is not a 'shiny.' Shinies are cool, but ultimately useless. Iron improves pretty much EVERYTHING.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
The fact that we wont use this to do anything, I have zero belief that we will take advantage by suddenly attacking into the lowlands or anything else of value.
I rather have to golden age go on so that we can get more safe opportunities for rapid advancement.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I don't think you understand how advanced getting iron is, there is almost nothing that would surpass this
This is THOUSANDS of years ahead.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Like holy moly Christ on a Adamantium Rocket bike this is not a shiny.
I've spelled it out.
I'll do it again.
What it means to kill him:
-Strengthens the belief, especially if the plagues die down.
-Stifles ideas. This is catastrophic in the long run. Especially if it gets canonized as legend.
-Keeps us mostly safe, and costs no stats. But it leaves us in the status quo for defending ourselves, which is not helpful.
-The Metal Workers are not angered.
What it means to save him:
-Starts to weaken the belief per word of AN
-Encourages Ideas. This is the exact opposite of the stifling option. Getting it canonized should produce some interesting results.
-Risks a lot, because we have to spend a shitload of things and end the Golden Age. It spends onlya few of our Crucial Security Assests (Mysticism, Stability, Legitimacy), while the rest of Econ, Martial and Diplo are left unharmed. Martial is especially important because we are gonna be spending that fighting the Nomads.
-We can start a Gromril or Mythril legend equivalent among the Lowlanders, this will generate prestige and Art. It also is epitome of Dwarf and Elf.
-We would not need the Metal Workers very much anymore for knowledge. It is also possible to soothe them. We also I guess figured out that the special advance they made a few turns ago was refractory materials. They will also have difficulty expressing their anger physically to us, so we have a chance to appease them.
-Final note. Iron forging was discovered around 2000 BCE. We are in 5000 BCE by best estimates of surrounding civs, and Tin Bronze is supposed to be discovered in the next 1800 years. We would be so far ahead it is not even remotely funny.
Like so:
Step 1
Main Proclaim Glory
Sec Policy Balanced
Sec War Mission Nomads
Step 2
Main Festival
Sec Expand Econ
Sec War Mission Nomads
If that does not strike your fancy How about an alternate?
Step 1b
Main Proclaim Glory
Sec Policy Balanced
Sec Study Metal
Step 2b
Main Festival
Sec Expand Econ
Sec War Mission Nomads
After all that
Step 3
Main Something else
Sec Iron Mine Red Hill.
Sec Something else
what I can think of off the top of my head. Need to run the numbers a bit.
Remember if we know the metal and can get production going Weapons of the Gods does not stop us using it.
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Ugh, oligarchic switch cause of Quality (and maybe an associated crit fail)
And ughhh hard choice... @Academia Nut what exactly would we get just from this choice? we'd know how to smelt iron, presumably one of hte really primitive types*, and we'd needto spend an action to get a mine up, but would we know how to make it into tools without spending more actions?
*like...doesn't one of the earlier ways of smelting iron produce not-very-useful iron?
Yep. Another pile of problems added to our list. It might have been inevitable anyway.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
And learning how to break the Atom is thousands of years ahead, still is utterly worthless at this time, I rather get something that I know we will use like an advancement of communications so that we can afford to expand more.
- Location
- Somewhere
Our stability is at max. The saddest thing about this vote is it won't be close. No one is truly arguing against iron. Instead all I see are a bunch of comments about...
Reasons for the shiny:
- I wan iron. I want iron, ya idiots. I WANT, REALLY REaLLLLY BaddLy IRON!!!!!!!!!!! IRONMENIRONIRONROIRIRNORIRON. Ya HEAr ME, YA Bunch OF DRIED GRAPES! I, WANT, IRON!
- We need iron to give us an edge against everyone who has the potential to attack us. Yes, even a drop of water on a tree can attack us.
- If we don't take iron now, the stigma against star metal might solidify so hard nothing can melt it.
- Iron will lead to steel if we guide The People right. Just think, 30-story Skyscrapers in the Copper Age! The Nega-verse would give up immediately. MWAHHHAHAHHAHAHA!
Reasons not to take the shiny:
"Chirp" "Chirp"
A sparrow flies out of a room of empty noise. Only a note with the words "I want metal", rest solemnly in this room. Almost like a promise that will last forever, no matter what.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
That is disingenuous as fuck (not only because splitting the atom is a game changer so strong that I think you don't understand what it means to do it)
Iron is THOUSANDS of years ahead, it will be used IN EVERYTHING
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Diplo 9 [+1] -> 12 [+1}
Not actually sure where the extra 2 diplo came from...
Econ 9 -> 5
-2 (Chariots) - 3 (3 Build walls) + 1 (Golden Age)
Mil 10 -> 12
+2 from chariots
Prestige from the humiliate
The government switch doesn't seem to be a big enough deal to get a legacy out of it, damn :/
New social stuff, from elite + gov switch :/
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
So here comes a guy who takes a large steaming shit on the people's traditions, the peoples beliefs, and the peoples laws. And declares them beneath him to boot.
And the King not only spares him his just punishment, he champions him.
It's not the stallion tribes you have to worry about: every man, women and child will be grabbing thier pitchforks and howling for blood. Any rebellion would actually have both the moral highground and utter public support.
Imagine how we would react if our heads of state appointed josef mengle chief science advisor and gave him full pardon and guarantees of continued research. Cus that's how the people are gonna see it.
I realise that I went overboard with that last example, but alas my knowledge of mad scientists isn't good enough for a better example.
- Location
- From the moon
...Iron is everything. Ok I'm going to be frank with you. The discovery of iron was one of the biggest things to ever happen to humanity the only thing that's up there is the discovery of Fire. Iron changes everything. Not one little off thing everything. Farming, Traveling, building, medicine, science, war, mythology all of these things get improved by iron to the N degree exponentially. Iron changed everything. It set the stage for the modern era.
I don't even care if it destroys our Civ iron is the most important thing we could of discovered the biggest.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Considering it all no it wont, it will most likely cost stability for every action on the path, saying yes will most likely cause a disaster just like the last time you all tried to get a super advance SHINY, sure if you overcome the disaster everything will be golden, but I doubt we will.
Motoko
Herald of Iron to The People
- Location
- Canada, ontario
Only twenty?
BRUH
THESE FOOLS... they have almost no idea on where to even START.
I say 35 turns minimum for everyone to get their shit together for this (I.e war finishing, science-y stuff to begin on their start). Probably 20 for metalworkers since they'd actually know what needs to be done, but don't have spies or know HOW.
And you all said it couldn't be done this early, HA!
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Its not a shiny, its the golden beacon of civilization that as long as we can unlock it will benefit Humanity beyond our meagre insignificant civ, if a civ discovered iron as early as we did in this quest, The Modern ages would have came thousands of years earlier, The fact you think this is JUST a shiny that isn't needed then you need to get some google in ya
I am legit puzzled by all the people who declare civil war and anarchy will follow if we take the downside. This wasn't a nat-100 based innovation for nothing and this would hardly be the first action we've taken that dropped us to -1 stability. The situation in terms of realpolitik, contrary to what people say, is actually pretty good for us to tech up right now.
When we do finally get widespread iron, we are gonna hit whoever we aim our army at like the hammer of god. I would say unless the Eastern Thunder Horses remain stable and come through for the Thunder Speakers in a way I seriously doubt, we're probably in a good position to take much of the Lowlands within a couple of turns.
All we need is casus belli, and then someone is going to have a very bad time.
- As has been pointed out, the nomad aggression is almost a blessing in that it means the Stallion Tribes simply can't afford to break away from us right now even if they wanted to. At the same time, nomads are such a fragmented polity there's no serous risk of them overrunning us entirely.
- The Highland Kingdom is in yet another civil war, and they can't even really consider attacking us because of the threat of the Thunder Speakers. So they're not going to be coming for us any time soon.
- The Thunder Speakers might declare war, but if they do they'll attack the Highland Kingdoms first because they're disorganized and they can use their chariots against them. Even if they succeed in crushing the Highland Kingdoms, it would leave them too logistically stretched to continue on and attack us for another generation or two.
- We do have enough threat from nomads and the looming Thunder Speakers to give even our shamans plenty of motivation to make use of a powerful new military tech- and what's more powerful than the weapons of the gods?
When we do finally get widespread iron, we are gonna hit whoever we aim our army at like the hammer of god. I would say unless the Eastern Thunder Horses remain stable and come through for the Thunder Speakers in a way I seriously doubt, we're probably in a good position to take much of the Lowlands within a couple of turns.
All we need is casus belli, and then someone is going to have a very bad time.
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Motoko
Herald of Iron to The People
- Location
- Canada, ontario
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The way I see this @Marlin @SpeckofStardust.
If we do not take this now and try for Bronze instead, we are going to get it behind everyone else and we are going to get stomped.
Why? There is no evidence of Arsenic Copper or Tin ores in our region. The ETH lucked into those.
What does this send as a message?
What it means to kill him:
-Strengthens the belief, especially if the plagues die down.
-Stifles ideas. This is catastrophic in the long run. Especially if it gets canonized as legend.
-Keeps us mostly safe, and costs no stats. But it leaves us in the status quo for defending ourselves, which is not helpful.
-The Metal Workers are not angered.
This means that down through legend we encourage the Stifling of Ideas. This has catastrophic negative synergy with our Oligarchy that we cannot negate with the tools on hand.
If we take Iron Smelting now and step with intelligence we can open an Iron mine in two to three turns. Even a secondary one would revolutionize how we do things. We would literally have things coming out of our noses it is so good.
Every one else is aiming for Bronze in the next five to ten. And we would get it in the next eight or 13, behind everyone else. We would be so set it is not funny.
If we do not take this now and try for Bronze instead, we are going to get it behind everyone else and we are going to get stomped.
Why? There is no evidence of Arsenic Copper or Tin ores in our region. The ETH lucked into those.
What does this send as a message?
What it means to kill him:
-Strengthens the belief, especially if the plagues die down.
-Stifles ideas. This is catastrophic in the long run. Especially if it gets canonized as legend.
-Keeps us mostly safe, and costs no stats. But it leaves us in the status quo for defending ourselves, which is not helpful.
-The Metal Workers are not angered.
This means that down through legend we encourage the Stifling of Ideas. This has catastrophic negative synergy with our Oligarchy that we cannot negate with the tools on hand.
If we take Iron Smelting now and step with intelligence we can open an Iron mine in two to three turns. Even a secondary one would revolutionize how we do things. We would literally have things coming out of our noses it is so good.
Every one else is aiming for Bronze in the next five to ten. And we would get it in the next eight or 13, behind everyone else. We would be so set it is not funny.
- Location
- Brazil
Ah, yes, that's why I wanted to Wait.
[X] Protect him and have him teach his knowledge(-4 Stability, -2 Legitimacy, -10 Mysticism, -10 Art, -2 Prestige, chance of infuriating the MetalWorkers, gain Iron Smelting study chain)
Why?
[X] Protect him and have him teach his knowledge(-4 Stability, -2 Legitimacy, -10 Mysticism, -10 Art, -2 Prestige, chance of infuriating the MetalWorkers, gain Iron Smelting study chain)