[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[X] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss, +11-15 Econ, further effects, chance of over crowding, Upper Valleyhome attains True City status)
 
Yeah, it isn't caused by metal. That's just The People's superstition. @hylas240 mentioned whooping cough. This is pretty likely given the symptoms and the fatal demographics.
Pertussis - Wikipedia
  • Highly contagious
  • Extremely heavy, painful cough
  • Kills infants
It also isn't easy for us to inoculate against given that it primarily kills the demographic we plan to inoculate, and we don't have an effective stand in. I suppose something could be rigged up to boil samples of collected mucous and respiratory fluids and then give them to kids, but heat killing a bacteria is at best unlikely to provide the immune system with the necessary antigens and at worst likely to kill the recipient. TBH, the best bet is to have women who have survived the disease and are breastfeeding, act as a wet nurse. That's the only way I can think of to confer the immunity long enough to survive early childhood.
Apologies for previous, callous response. Actual response, post research:
"Whole-cell pertussis vaccines were developed first and are suspensions of the entire B. pertussis organism that has been inactivated, usually with formalin." Aka yeah, we could just scrape mucus from the back of sick peoples throats, heat it up, and stab other people with needles. Heat might denature some of the antigens/etc., but is unlikely to do so enough to matter - we still use heating up cultures as a standard way of inactivating the pathogen. We could also probably try alcohol if we could get enough to matter. Formalin could maybe be made by heating up methane in an iron oxide-esque bowl but... idk where we'd get methane and it would probably be really impure.

We couldn't give it to super young infants, but giving it to our whole population is more likely to protect these infants from catching it than just letting it run around freely would. If breastfeeding helped, it wouldn't have been a major problem for children who were breastfed by their mothers, who presumably had suffered the widespread and epidemic disease.
 
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Why is everyone going for an administrative tech instead of construction upgrade? If we get a construction upgrade, we might get arc, or road construction ability, both of which could help us with Stallion Tribes.
 
From your point of view. I already stated twice that study health has ties to the bogus belief (as it would disprove the superstition).

You ignoring my reasoning and shouting down my request for clarification is annoying.
Because I don't see how study health would be MINUS stability for an action that would be to help combat the disease. Plus, AN isn't even on.
 
[X] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss,+11-15 Econ, further effects, chance of over crowding, Upper Valleyhome attains True City status.
[X] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss, +11-15 Econ, further effects, chance of over crowding, Upper Valleyhome attains True City status)
Would you mind dropping one level to -3.5 stability? That way we ensure we don't get unlucky and temporarily hit -4 stability and kill our civ.

Which I believe is bunk, so I ignored it.
Do you have a reason to believe that? If everyone is getting sick, then we can't easily prove that metal doesn't cause the sickness. Perhaps if we completely isolated everyone involved in a metal study action, but that's not practical since they'll need to get access to all sorts of resources to do the studying, and if one person had the bacteria on them and everyone got sick then we just further entrench the belief.
 
...I really, really, really don't understand the people looking to take a freaking -4 stability hit and chance of further loss with immigration. This is basically, 'hey, here's a game over button'.

It's just not worth it.
 
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Would you mind dropping one level to -3.5 stability? That way we ensure we don't get unlucky and temporarily hit -4 stability and kill our civ.


Do you have a reason to believe that? If everyone is getting sick, then we can't easily prove that metal doesn't cause the sickness. Perhaps if we completely isolated everyone involved in a metal study action, but that's not practical since they'll need to get access to all sorts of resources to do the studying, and if one person had the bacteria on them and everyone got sick then we just further entrench the belief.
Because the earlier we disprove the belief the easier it IS to disprove, which Study health is FOR.
 
[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
Because I don't see how study health would be MINUS stability for an action that would be to help combat the disease. Plus, AN isn't even on.
Again, from your point of view. My asking for clarification has nothing to do with your own opinion.

Who cares if he's off right now? He'll see it when he comes back on.
 
STOP. this has a good chance of crashing us to -4 and game overing us immediately. Don't do this
Not really -4+-1=-5+2=-3 we have stab 2 so it would take us to at most Stab -2 if there is an additional stab hit. I am not choosing the option because I enjoy being at positive stab but you are being paranoid.
 
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Diplomacy 6->9 [+1]

So much salt.

Economy 5 (+1)

Baby boom's over guys. We can't afford megaprojects without an Expansion phase.
We got three from the copper mine and spent threee on the project.

Stability 3->2 (optimistic)
And there it goes. Spent one on a kicker, gained one from megaproject, lost one from plague. And now we think metal is cursed.
On the other hand we could have thought TRADE or Megaprojects are cursed instead. :p
But metal always came with a disaster.

Centralization 5->4

New Trails is safe again now.

Art 5->7

Canal Art cashout for megaproject.

Mysticism 8->10 (+1)

Canal Art cashout for megaproject.

Prestige 6->7

And we are FAMOUS!

The Garden
Through the careful channeling of water, the People have created a garden within a city, a well watered domain of pleasant shade and efficient sewage disposal. Unlocks the aqueduct extended project, provides an aqueduct for the city (increasing available living space). Opens up the True City status
We got:
-Public utility water
-Expanded Econ slots
-'True City' status(?)
-Build Aqueduct option, which should be under Expansion currently.

So the demons sent a cough. A painful cough that lingered and lingered, such that it could not be adequately contained by quarantine, not without crashing the economy as everyone stayed isolated from everyone else. It killed adults to be sure, their bodies sometimes wracked with coughs so potent as to break ribs, but as the disease spread through the population, the brunt of the reaping fell upon the most vulnerable, and there seemed to be no way to stop this latest iteration of a killer. Where for generations the shamans had fought to keep three out of six children alive, it was now more like two out of seven or even eight that made it to adulthood. It wasn't always the new cough, just as often it was the old familiar killers, but now there was something new that the People couldn't fight to weaken tiny bodies and leave them susceptible to something else.
...tuberclosis? It sounds like Tuberclosis.

Work had begun when she was a child and her father a stonemason - now an elder enjoying his retirement whittling and telling new stonemasons what to do - and she had discovered a talent for organizing and directing the work. She had simply been able to see the patterns of movement among the workers, the rhythm to it all and where things got snarled and how they could be smoothed. Then she had precociously charmed her father and the other workers into following her advice, and after they started to recognize that she had good advice they had realized that they had a born administrator on their hands.
Heroic administrator!
By the time of her being declared a woman she had an assignment from the Artisan Chief with royal backing to travel to the Green Hill and apprentice under the clerks and chiefs doing the process of expanding the quarry into a mine and smelting site, transforming the coloured stones into shining copper and poisonous wastes. She had thrived there and got the mine up and running early, and had also met her husband Yldod, a potter, there, and had soon found herself sent on to the new Southshore settlement, where they not only needed a skilled admin but someone who could handle the fact that there were people from the Southern Hill Tribes - now being called the Hathatyn after the city that seemed dominant in the overall region, Hathaya - who were also starting to settle the region. Through adroit diplomacy she had managed to keep the fighting to a minimum; mostly just interpersonal things that would have happened regardless of language or beliefs, but she kept it from spiraling out of control into anything larger conflicts, for the time being.
So looks like our system continues to promote talents, and this is our first Artisan Chief.
And Southern Shores was grabbed at JUST the right time. Border conflicts likely over time.
If only the gardens could help with the coughing plague, but as it was they "merely" helped prevent other infections and gave people a greater chance of fighting it off without picking up something else along the way. It was a remarkable piece of work too, consisting of both an elevated ramp and watertight sections of brickwork that allowed the water to move uphill.
And the sanitation bonus arrives just in time, or this will SUCK hard.

The outflow was at the top of the hill, and then it cascaded down through more canals to water the whole city, including large areas with trees and bushes to provide shade and bring healthy spirits of nature into the city.
Parks!
Recreation areas are a nice touch.

Waste water was also carried away with a section of the outflow, taking it to fields where lined pits and specially selected plants slowed down, collected, and filtered the waste. Upper Valleyhome would create less black soil the traditional way, but the farms and forests throughout the province rarely needed a fresh infusion, and burning off winter top cover before planting seemed to adequately renew it anyway.
And it seems Black Soil production is hurt a bit, but we have cesspools to handle human waste for now.
Local Copper Supply Acquired!
Econ cost of all megaprojects and extended projects reduced. Opens up new innovation possibilities.
Nifty.

Unfortunately, while no one quite knew what had caused the coughing plague - most of their sedentary neighbours were also suffering from it, although no one could be sure who had it first - many people were quite convinced that they knew what it was: the mine. Many were now convinced that the superior qualities of metal was because it was the remains of the weapons of the gods, slung across the sky and buried in the ground ages ago. Since gods fought with the primal forces of the world like thunder, storms, the unsteadiness of the earth, and of course the unleashing of demons of plague. The People knew that metals and their wastes could make people sick, but many were now convinced that playing with the weapons of spirits and gods was fundamentally unsound, and while none could deny the utility of having metal tools, many were now against anything to do with the production of those tools.


Baby Boom Ended!
Due to an increase in infant mortality from new diseases, growth rates have stabilized back to near equilibrium levels. -1 Stability due to these new mortality rates not being considered normal

Debilitating Belief Gained!
Weapons of the Gods
Metal and things that come from the heavens are cursed! While the People will use that which is already present or trade, metal mining and open study now costs Stability.
And a nasty superstition. No current known means to remove it. Seems like everyone's taking a hit though.

Magwyna was obviously opposed to this belief, but she felt that was because it didn't make sense to her given that the metal barren Xohyssiri seemed to suffer from more plagues than the metal rich people to the far west. Unfortunately, given that she very much had an involvement in setting up the mine, pretty much everyone assumed that she wanted to downplay things for political reasons, which was frustrating given that she was already having problems on the council relating to her relative youth and gender.
Ah, politics.
While the chiefs of Valleyhome and Southshore personally knew and liked her from before her appointment as Artisan Chief, the chiefs of Northshore, Stonepen, and the Stallion Tribes seemed to have a grudge out for her, probably because Attrikwyn, the chief of the Stallion Tribes seemed to have a bug up his ass about her. He liked to cast her ways of being charming, personable, and persuasive as being 'seductive' and challenged the legitimacy of her advice and achievements. Everyone else on the council seemed to have more complex and mixed feelings, but it made getting her points across harder. Some accused her of going after the kingship, and while originally she hadn't, she was now tempted to do so just to clean the situation up. It would be a hard struggle though, especially since Attrikwyn seemed set on the .
Great. Stallion Tribes are consolidating with the northern provinces.

And, of course, with a new disease on the scene - and the Thunder Speakers and Xohyssiri getting their faces kicked in by the Eastern Thunder Horse - the lowlands were in chaos. The Highlander king's attempt to unify their laws and bring about changes had also annoyed some of his chiefs, who had taken the coughing plague as a sign of displeasure by the spirits. While it wasn't a complete rupture of order, an group roughly equivalent to a province was trying to break off, resulting in just one more bit of chaos in their southern neighbours.
And the lowlands are on fire. How usual.

Select a bonus
[] Random Admin tech upgrade

Boosted Hierarchy, change the organization of the chiefs to better handle
We got a bonus here from a Heroic Admin king. It should help mitigate the problems with the northern provinces raising shit.

[] Random Construction tech upgrade

Probably breaking through into Mortar.

[] Free holy site expansion (+2 Mysticism)

Not needed, though good for Literacy, it'd bring our Mysticism to 12, which is probably risky.

[] Reassure the People of their safety and prosperity (+1 Stability)

...we could just throw a festival instead. Good conition for now. Pass.

Choose the next heir
[] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])

A Female Hero who isn't counter to our values? Gimme!
It also helps reverse the gender gap a bit, but will cause more friction with the Stallions.

[] Attrikwyn ([Good Admin, Diplo, and Martial])

Stallion Tribes continue to generate skilled assholes.

[] Someone else (Standard)

Politic choice. Better be mediocre than to be controversial

Choose a midturn project
[] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)

Fixes the Stability hit immediately. Not that urgent though. We're in positives.

[] Study Metal (-2 Mysticism, -1 Econ, -1 Stability, chance of new discoveries)

But we probably don't want to sink more Stability this soon.

[] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)

Works on the Northern Tribes problem. So this is a Yes.

[] Focus on Growth (+2 Econ)

Could use more, but it's pretty mediocre.

So vote:
[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Objective is to ease the strife with the northern tribes. And we probably could use Salt Gift next turn. Salt Gift with a Heroic Diplomacy king is godly.
We don't want a Stability crash at present however. It'd amplify the north problems
 
...I really, really, really don't understand the people looking to take a freaking -4 stability hit with immigration.
It's not the -4 that's bad, it's the -5. When we immediately hold a GS afterwards it's effectively only a -2. I'm in favor of the -3.5 option which has a chance of giving us -4. The -5 is the one that has a chance of breaking our civ.
Because the earlier we disprove the belief the easier it IS to disprove, which Study health is FOR.
Sure, but how do we do it in-universe? How do we prevent them from doing a study, getting a little unlucky and just confirming the belief?
 
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Again, from your point of view. My asking for clarification has nothing to do with your own opinion.

Who cares if he's off right now? He'll see it when he comes back on.
.....

Debilitating Belief Gained!
Weapons of the Gods
Metal and things that come from the heavens are cursed! While the People will use that which is already present or trade, metal mining and open study now costs Stability.

Re-read the bolded part. That means mining and studying metal is a stability hit. It has nothing to do with study health or other study actions
 
STOP. this has a good chance of crashing us to -4 and game overing us immediately. Don't do this
I would ask of you to cease this incessant nagging. You, and many others, have stated the risks of failure enough times already. We, those of us voting for the MAXIMUM IMMIGRATION PILEDRIVER SUPREME know the risks involved with taking the -4 stab to stab. We clearly seem to have differing opinions as to what acceptable risks entail and I would ask you to accept that difference.

That said, you shouldn't get yourself in a tizzy about it anyways as MAX IMMIGRATION votes never seem to win a plurality.
 
It's not the -4 that's bad, it's the -5. When we immediately hold a GS afterwards it's effectively only a -2. I'm in favor of the -3.5 option which has a chance of giving us -4. The -5 is the one that has a chance of breaking our civ.
...We just got a debilitating belief that means we will be losing stability every time we try to do anything with metal. Getting rid of it will almost definitely cost stability, and our means of getting stability back are limited.

The whooping cough or whatever is still ravaging the lowlands and taxing our own people's ability to cope with it. And you want to throw us into negative stability so we can have a city full of infected immigrants that our doctors won't be able to handle?

All with a good chance of a bad throw of the dice just rolling us over into oblivion.

Why? No, really, why?
 
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It's not the -4 that's bad, it's the -5. When we immediately hold a GS afterwards it's effectively only a -2. I'm in favor of the -3.5 option which has a chance of giving us -4. The -5 is the one that has a chance of breaking our civ.

Sure, but how do we do it in-universe? How do we prevent them from doing a study, getting a little unlucky and just confirming the belief?
We Main study health MAIN study metal. This is the best shot currently for disproving things.
 
[X] Random Construction tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

We should either do a trade expedition to the SHP or the Highlander, maybe even do a gift salt. See what brings it out.

And New Trails with our construction/artistian chief? Let's do it.
 
Not really -4+-1=-5+2=-3 we have stab 2 so it would take us to at most Stab -2 if there is an additional stab hit. I am not choosing the option because I enjoy being at positive stab but you are being paranoid.
The +2 from grand sacrifice is not immediate, so we'd have an admin check to determine action-order.
If the GS takes effect after the stab hits, and we roll the extra stab hit then we'd hit -4 temporarily. We'd have +2 stab waiting for us, but it wouldn't matter. At that point we break apart as a civ and get to make shitty decisions about how badly it will effect us and how the civ breaks apart and which new polity we take control off.
 
[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

I agree with the people saying this is the best chance to get connections with the Stallion tribes. Hopefully our Heroic Queen can diplomance them into coming back into the fold?
 
[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
Select a bonus
[X] Random Admin tech upgrade

Choose the next heir
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])

Choose a midturn project
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)

Refugee policy
[X] You have lots of room (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, chance of further effects)
 
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