Paths of Civilization

tryrar · May 10, 2017

hylas240 said:
I'd really like to do both too, but as it would cost 2 stability for a double main...nope. There's also the Southern Hill people that were only temporarily pacified by our diplo hero. They're gonna need a trade mission in order to pacify them before it turns into a war. I wouldn't care about that normally, but we have a Poor Martial and Heroic Diplomatic leader...it seems like a good idea to play to our strengths.

Who knows, we might get an option to assimilate them?

.......why would it cost 2 stability? Only study metal actions cost stability

Abby Normal · May 10, 2017

hylas240 said:
Considering our civ's experience with inoculation, they have the best chance out of anyone else to create a vaccine (or atleast dispel the bogus belief and unlock another warding mega project).

Study Health seems better than Metal.

We have experience with Heterologous vaccines--where we introduce a live pathogen that either is harmless or mostly harmless (cowpox) to provide protection against another, related one that is deadly (smallpox). If i'm understanding wikipedia right, this is a much easier type than the "acellular" type used for whooping cough. I'll note that in RL the smallpox vaccine was developed in 1796, while the pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine wasn't until 1926...so i don't think we're going to be inoculating against whooping cough anytime soon

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Umi-san · May 10, 2017

Quotes of Interest:

Academia Nut said:
the new Southshore settlement, where they not only needed a skilled admin but someone who could handle the fact that there were people from the Southern Hill Tribes - now being called the Hathatyn after the city that seemed dominant in the overall region, Hathaya - who were also starting to settle the region. Through adroit diplomacy she had managed to keep the fighting to a minimum; mostly just interpersonal things that would have happened regardless of language or beliefs, but she kept it from spiraling out of control into anything larger conflicts, for the time being.

SHP in SSP; situation fine, but of medium-term interest.

Academia Nut said:
the metal barren Xohyssiri

The Xo lack metal.

Academia Nut said:
And, of course, with a new disease on the scene - and the Thunder Speakers and Xohyssiri getting their faces kicked in by the Eastern Thunder Horse - the lowlands were in chaos. The Highlander king's attempt to unify their laws and bring about changes had also annoyed some of his chiefs, who had taken the coughing plague as a sign of displeasure by the spirits. While it wasn't a complete rupture of order, an group roughly equivalent to a province was trying to break off, resulting in just one more bit of chaos in their southern neighbours.

ETH beating TS and XS. HK troubled.

sidestory said:
I think that will have to wait,
Depending on the vote we might need to restore our Stability first,
Afterwards we need to create another Province and more boats for faster response in case the SHP start trouble, so that we can afterwards double main new trails and maybe get the Stallion tribes integrated enough that they don't start taking a shit at us for picking a female king over non-heroic Chief

So basically, "let's ignore the problem and use our secondary action on more boats instead of a policy change that will help solve the immediate problem."

Sivantic said:
Hahhhh, no

That is far beyond us. Even with our advanced medicine.

Yeah probably but who cares

pbluekan said:
Not for this disease. It isn't as obvious or easily done as smallpox. For smallpox we have an effective stand-in that won't kill the recipient in the form of vaccinia. For cholera, it was as simple as proper sanitation.

This disease is airborne, highly contagious, and it really only kills the young. So sanitation doesn't work, and attempting to introduce extremely small doses to people would more than likely just give them the infection. Read above for any other attempts at vaccination.

Edit: oops double post.

Read above response.

notgreat said:
1) We basically can't do the study until the disease has died down a little if we want to break the superstition. That should be in ~2 turns. We can't effectively make a vaccine for this if it is the Whooping Cough, so we should wait until it dies down and then do our study to prove that there is no link.
2) Normally we take only the lower classes who are most willing to abandon their lifestyle, the ones with minimal tech knowledge. By taking in more people, we start eating away at their (relatively) middle class and thus have more potential to take a tech upgrade as we take in those with more specialized knowledge.

I don't see why that is true. Knowledge is as likely to break the superstition as to not break the superstition.

That's true but not very convincing. We simply haven't heard of anything particularly amazing from our traders about anyone but the DP and MW.

notgreat · May 10, 2017

Also, we have a Diplomacy and Administration hero. That means we should be doing diplo and admin tasks- and Study Health is not one of those AFAIK. It makes a lot more sense to wait a turn or two for us to lose the temporary bonus to those things and for the disease to die down. It's hard to prove that the disease isn't caused by metal when everyone is getting the disease. Once it's started to die down a little, it'll be much easier to disprove the link.

Candesce said:
What makes you think this would do anything to make studying easier, rather than letting the belief become more entrenched?

For that matter, what makes you think it will die down at all?

Right now it's at pandemic levels as our population has effectively no resistance to it. In a few turns it'll be like the Star Pox in the lowlands- a killer for sure, but not a pandemic. The belief may become more entrenched, but how can you possibly prove that there is no link when everyone is getting sick anyway?

Candesce said:
Something like this, maybe?

We should switch to Policy: Progress, grab a new province, and possibly do a study action on our own. Alternatively Policy: Expansion and do 3 studies ourselves, though that's less study overall. Either way we really want that extra action a new province gives us. (Assuming the current -0.5 stability vote wins)

Duesal · May 10, 2017

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

tryrar · May 10, 2017

notgreat said:
Also, we have a Diplomacy and Administration hero. That means we should be doing diplo and admin tasks- and Study Health is not one of those AFAIK. It makes a lot more sense to wait a turn or two for us to lose the temporary bonus to those things and for the disease to die down. It's hard to prove that the disease isn't caused by metal when everyone is getting the disease. Once it's started to die down a little, it'll be much easier to disprove the link.

Right now it's at pandemic levels as our population has effectively no resistance to it. In a few turns it'll be like the Star Pox in the lowlands- a killer for sure, but not a pandemic. The belief may become more entrenched, but how can you possibly prove that there is no link when everyone is getting sick anyway?

We should switch to Policy: Progress, grab a new province, and possibly do a study action on our own. Alternatively Policy: Expansion and do 3 studies ourselves, though that's less study overall.

....................so you're argument for not doing Study Health is that we don't have a Mystic Hero. While forgetting that Mystic is usually the dump stat for most leaders. You see the issue here?

I mean, we can easily fit diplomatic and admin actions as well as a study health, so I don't see the issue

hylas240 · May 10, 2017

tryrar said:
.......why would it cost 2 stability? Only study metal actions cost stability

Academia Nut said:
metal mining and open study now costs Stability.

Since the disease is considered a weapon of the gods, wouldn't study health cost stability too? Open study doesn't specify that it's only metal, it could be health as well.

@Academia Nut Is Study Metal the only study action to cost stability?

tryrar · May 10, 2017

hylas240 said:
Since the disease is considered a weapon of the gods, wouldn't study health cost stability too? Open study doesn't specify that it's only metal, it could be health as well.

@Academia Nut Is Study Metal the only study action to cost stability?

....YUS. BECAUSE IT'S RELATED TO OUR NEW BELIEF.

Kiba · May 10, 2017

We may have to keep tanking hit from studying metal to disprove the link somehow. Damn observance trait.

Rakuhn · May 10, 2017

I don't think that study metal will be very useful for breaking people's belief that using metal brings curses. It's too subtle of an action and can be passed off as only cursing individuals instead of the civilization as a whole.

We'd need to do something bigger, like build another mine. Something that is imposaible to ignore, and almost seems to be taunting the gods themselves.

pbluekan · May 10, 2017

I'm actually looking at more Carrion Eaters as an option. We know they are basically the keepers and practitioners of the knowledge on anatomy we obtained from the Book of the Living. This should help advance any study health and study forest actions in regards to this disease.

notgreat · May 10, 2017

tryrar said:
....................so you're argument for not doing Study Health is that we don't have a Mystic Hero. While forgetting that Mystic is usually the dump stat for most leaders. You see the issue here?

I mean, we can easily fit diplomatic and admin actions as well as a study health, so I don't see the issue

It's just a simple efficiency thing: When we have a temporary bonus to admin and diplomacy, we should focus on those areas, since they're the only ones with the bonus. We don't have a penalty to study, but we don't have a bonus either. We do have a bonus to admin and diplomacy.

(Also you're totally missing my primary argument in that we basically can't disprove the connection until the disease dies down a little)

Reader of all · May 10, 2017

How about we switch policy to progress and next turn we

Main Study health
Sec New trails
Sec change policy progress

hylas240 · May 10, 2017

tryrar said:
....YUS. BECAUSE IT'S RELATED TO OUR NEW BELIEF.

Why are you again posting in all caps? You need to stop that.

I asked him because Study Health is also related to the narrative on why Study Metal is costing us stability, which is what you'd know if you actually read my previous post.

tryrar · May 10, 2017

notgreat said:
It's just a simple efficiency thing: When we have a temporary bonus to admin and diplomacy, we should focus on those areas, since they're the only ones with the bonus. We don't have a penalty to study, but we don't have a bonus either. We do have a bonus to admin and diplomacy.

(Also you're totally missing my primary argument in that we basically can't disprove the connection until the disease dies down a little)

Which I believe is bunk, so I ignored it.

Kiba · May 10, 2017

Remember how artisans usually don't get chosen to be leaders because all they did was make pot and whatnot? Now we got an artisan hero AND a woman.

tryrar · May 10, 2017

hylas240 said:
Why are you again posting in all caps? You need to stop that.

I asked him because Study Health is also related to the narrative on why Study Metal is costing us stability, which is what you'd know if you actually read my previous post.

Because it's obvious. Study metal would be stability hit, other study actions would not.

Reader of all · May 10, 2017

notgreat said:
It's just a simple efficiency thing: When we have a temporary bonus to admin and diplomacy, we should focus on those areas, since they're the only ones with the bonus. We don't have a penalty to study, but we don't have a bonus either. We do have a bonus to admin and diplomacy.

(Also you're totally missing my primary argument in that we basically can't disprove the connection until the disease dies down a little)

By the time the desease dies down the belief will become ingrained in our people's culture.

tryrar · May 10, 2017

Kiba said:
Remember how artisans usually don't get chosen to be leaders because all they did was make pot and whatnot? Now we got an artisan hero AND a woman.

One reason to make her King/Queen. While it might only slow down the bias towards men, it sure doesn't hurt making women be able to be in charge.

Plus,someone DID say we might need an Artisan hero

drake_azathoth · May 10, 2017

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

DkArthas · May 10, 2017

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2Stability)
[X] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss,+11-15 Econ, further effects, chance of over crowding, Upper Valleyhome attains True City status.

Glassware · May 10, 2017

Academia Nut said:
It seems likely, so one would have to clearly demonstrate to the people that there is in fact no link.

Ugh, asking us to essentially prove a negative. It's likely we would not be able to do this given how the disease is spreading, we would need to basically put a bunch of people in a room with a bunch of metal for a prolonged duration and hope they don't get sick, and even that wouldn't convince some.

I think we should put this on the back burner for now. Our new king will have lots of other stuff to do to cement her legend after all. We may want to do a salt gift for example...

Sugnez · May 10, 2017

[X] Reassure the People of their safety and prosperity (+1 Stability)
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Ok guys, I know everyone's first instinct to keep our stability up would be to use the Grand Sacrifice, but we need to connect trails to the Stallion Tribes yesterday, and we finally have low enough centralization to not put ourselves at risk with New Trails. Also, Grand Sacrifice is a button we've already hit a couple times, and I'd rather take a stability gaining option that comes with no cost, even if it doesn't raise our stability as much. The +1 Sability does leave us short a potential tech upgrade, but it doesn't cost us any Econ, which we need to be more cautious about spending now that our Baby Boom is over.

As far as I can tell from the options presented, the only ways to help integrate the Stallion Tribes this turn would be to either do New Trails, or take a leader who will likely try to sink whatever progress we've made towards gender equality down the toilet. The cultural gap between us and the Stallion Tribes is only going to keep growing the longer we put off integrating them, and if we keep putting this off too much longer I wouldn't be surprised if Attrikwyn and the Stallion Tribes break off from the People altogether. If it does come to war between us and the ST, Magwyna isn't going to do us too much good with her poor martial, so I'd rather solve this issue peacefully and quietly with New Trails.

I'll admit my current vote is a bit on the conservative side, but worst case scenario it takes us down to 1 stability and gives us 1 econ. I'm pretty set in stone on voting for Magwyna and the New Trails, but if someone else comes up with a good plan that involves both of those, I'm willing to change my vote on the bonus and refugees.

EDIT: Fixed math

tryrar · May 10, 2017

DkArthas said:
[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2Stability)
[X] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss,+11-15 Econ, further effects, chance of over crowding, Upper Valleyhome attains True City status.

STOP. this has a good chance of crashing us to -4 and game overing us immediately. Don't do this

hylas240 · May 10, 2017

tryrar said:
Because it's obvious. Study metal would be stability hit, other study actions would not.

From your point of view. I already stated twice that study health has ties to the bogus belief (as it would disprove the superstition).

You ignoring my reasoning and shouting down my request for clarification is annoying.

Paths of Civilization

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Procrastinating.

Somethin's Fucky ...

CAPITAL IS TO BLAME