Paths of Civilization

ScreenWatcher · May 10, 2017

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

notgreat · May 10, 2017

To everyone taking in the minimum number: It's nice that it leaves us at 2 or 3 stability, but we've wanted to get those bonus effects for so long...

Umi-san said:
The -1.5 stability option would provide enough Econ, probably. We'll be at 6 next turn. Tbh, while I really want to build The Dam now, I'd be fine if we just hop-skipped to an EH Province, a Progress secondary, and an aqueduct extended project to increase the # of cities we have with good sanitation.

This gets us 2 Province mains, one of which will be doubled by The Law. It thus gives us a really, really good Study Health action when Progress is active. Tbh I am uncertain as to whether Study Metal *needs* to be taken w/ Study Health and am perfectly fine waiting to see if it is.

Agreed, anything above the -0.5 option is enough for me to think that the Dam is worth it. However, -3.5 has guaranteed bonus effects and doesn't hit overcrowding. -1.5 doesn't even have a chance of bonus effects, so I really want at least -2.5
We definitely need to grab another new province next turn no matter what.

Sivantic said:
Baby Boom ended.

I know, we were expecting to end up at 9 econ if the Baby Boom continued.

sidestory · May 10, 2017

Umi-san said:
study metal, yeah.
I'm thinking that we abandon the Dam temporarily, switch to Progress w/ one secondary, Main Study Health or EH Province, and do the aqueduct extended project w/ the last secondary.

I think that will have to wait,
Depending on the vote we might need to restore our Stability first,
Afterwards we need to create another Province and more boats for faster response in case the SHP start trouble, so that we can afterwards double main new trails and maybe get the Stallion tribes integrated enough that they don't start taking a shit at us for picking a female king over non-heroic Chief

Then we might get around to do the cool stuff

Also, has it occured to somebody that we might not even have to do anything at all about the situation with the metal,
I mean all we need to do is to wait for next sickness to roll around and off everybody again and then study metals afterwards hope that with us doing metal stuff no sickness breaks out due bad mid term roll, to show them via the proof of observation that these two are not related

NotteBoy97 · May 10, 2017

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

I would like to get true city but we're going to need to burn some stability to deal with our debilitating belief since study metal will have a stability cost.

DocMatoi · May 10, 2017

guys, what do you think is gonna happen when a bunch of people immigrate to us and suddenly get sick? We need that stability to study metal with our health now, to get rid of the bogus belief. This time, I'm advocating for stab conservation.

hylas240 · May 10, 2017

Ok, a few things.

1) The Southern Hill people need a trade mission sent over, otherwise they'll probably start attacking us. Normally this won't be a problem, but we'd be at a significant disadvantage with our poor martial hero.

2) If we take in a full providence worth of people, we'll automatically drop to 3 centralization and will demand trails to fix the issue (though this could be postponed). Also, the huge drop in stability isn't nice, as a Study Health or Study Metal costs stability in order for us to get rid of that dumb ass superstition.

Edit: This is dependent on the flood of people diverting into a new providence, instead of sitting in an overcrowded city. I'm sure they'll stay in Upper Valleyhome initially, with a midturn option of creating a new providence with the people or keeping them and the True City Status and dealing with the overcrowding.

Sivantic · May 10, 2017

Still nervous about that Honour Trait being open. We've done loads of projects yet...nothing.

notgreat said:
To everyone taking in the minimum number: It's nice that it leaves us at 2 or 3 stability, but we've wanted to get those bonus effects for so long...

Chance of further effects, not bonus effects. That means they aren't necessarily positive.

Candesce · May 10, 2017

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

notgreat said:
To everyone taking in the minimum number: It's nice that it leaves us at 2 or 3 stability, but we've wanted to get those bonus effects for so long...

So what, we should just suck up the worst hit we've taken as a civ so far so you can jump on a shiny?

No, we need that stability to fix this mess.

Observance-produced negative traits aren't going to go away on their own.

tryrar · May 10, 2017

ScreenWatcher said:
[X] Reassure the People of their safety and prosperity (+1 Stability)
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[X] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss, +11-15 Econ, further effects, chance of over crowding, Upper Valleyhome attains True City status)

um, math! we're at 2 right now. -1 drops us to 1, -4 would drop us to -3, which is safe, but if we blow the roll and don't get any of the stability boosters before we get hit by the additional stability loss, we go to -4 and break. Please don't do this

Abby Normal · May 10, 2017

tryrar said:
Actually, that spare art and mysticism was Canal proccing

Yeah, i accidentally said divine stewards; my math still holds, just with a different name for half of each

@Academia Nut Couple questions
1. what are the stats for our "standard" chiefs?
2. Now that we've unlocked True City status, can you tell us anything about what it does? I'm guessing its something that we need to find out by having one, but figured i'd ask just in case

Umi-san · May 10, 2017

"Whooping cough (pertussis) is a highly contagious respiratory tract infection. In many people, it's marked by a severe hacking cough followed by a high-pitched intake of breath that sounds like "whoop."
Before the vaccine was developed, whooping cough was considered a childhood disease. Now whooping cough primarily affects children too young to have completed the full course of vaccinations and teenagers and adults whose immunity has faded.

Deaths associated with whooping cough are rare but most commonly occur in infants. That's why it's so important for pregnant women — and other people who will have close contact with an infant — to be vaccinated against whooping cough." - Mayo Clinic

P sure this sounds like what we have. A vaccine can be developed, we'll need to see if our people can manage that.

notgreat said:
Agreed, anything above the -0.5 option is enough for me to think that the Dam is worth it. However, -3.5 has guaranteed bonus effects and doesn't hit overcrowding. -1.5 doesn't even have a chance of bonus effects, so I really want at least -2.5
We definitely need to grab another new province next turn no matter what.

Agreed w/ the province: it helps everything.

Tbh I don't know if the bonus effects are actually likely to be technology from other countries. The only two places likely to have new tech are the DP and the MW - the HK can offer opium flowers but that will take effort on our part to integrate. Therefore, the "other effects" are likely to be the typical integration issues.

I might be convinced by a satisfactorily cogent analysis, however.

DocMatoi said:
guys, what do you think is gonna happen when a bunch of people immigrate to us and suddenly get sick? We need that stability to study metal with our health now, to get rid of the bogus belief. This time, I'm advocating for stab conservation.

We'll be like "well, they caught our illness."

Sivantic · May 10, 2017

Umi-san said:
A vaccine can be developed, we'll need to see if our people can manage that.

Hahhhh, no

That is far beyond us. Even with our advanced medicine.

pbluekan · May 10, 2017

Vocalend said:
Speaking of the disease, does anyone know what were dealing with exactly? I don't think there are any widespread epidemic that is caused by metal...right?

Yeah, it isn't caused by metal. That's just The People's superstition. @hylas240 mentioned whooping cough. This is pretty likely given the symptoms and the fatal demographics.
Pertussis - Wikipedia

Highly contagious
Extremely heavy, painful cough
Kills infants

It also isn't easy for us to inoculate against given that it primarily kills the demographic we plan to inoculate, and we don't have an effective stand in. I suppose something could be rigged up to boil samples of collected mucous and respiratory fluids and then give them to kids, but heat killing a bacteria is at best unlikely to provide the immune system with the necessary antigens and at worst likely to kill the recipient. TBH, the best bet is to have women who have survived the disease and are breastfeeding, act as a wet nurse. That's the only way I can think of to confer the immunity long enough to survive early childhood.

pbluekan · May 10, 2017

Umi-san said:
A vaccine can be developed, we'll need to see if our people can manage that.

Not for this disease. It isn't as obvious or easily done as smallpox. For smallpox we have an effective stand-in that won't kill the recipient in the form of vaccinia. For cholera, it was as simple as proper sanitation.

This disease is airborne, highly contagious, and it really only kills the young. So sanitation doesn't work, and attempting to introduce extremely small doses to people would more than likely just give them the infection. Read above for any other attempts at vaccination.

Edit: oops double post.

ScreenWatcher · May 10, 2017

tryrar said:
um, math! we're at 2 right now. -1 drops us to 1, -4 would drop us to -3, which is safe, but if we blow the roll and don't get any of the stability boosters before we get hit by the additional stability loss, we go to -4 and break. Please don't do this

Changed it.

Arbit · May 10, 2017

[X] Random Construction tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Let it be known that you have room (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

hylas240 · May 10, 2017

Considering our civ's experience with inoculation, they have the best chance out of anyone else to create a vaccine (or atleast dispel the bogus belief and unlock another warding mega project).

Study Health seems better than Metal.

notgreat · May 10, 2017

To everyone taking the -4.5 stability option: I'd highly recommend dropping to -3.5 We're taking in the heroic leader, so we are effectively at only stability 1. If we get unlucky and hit -5, then we drop to -4 and instantly die. Far better to take -3.5 and guarantee that our civilization doesn't hit the breaking point due to bad admin ordering rolls. The +2 from GS is not certain to come before the refugees.

DocMatoi said:
guys, what do you think is gonna happen when a bunch of people immigrate to us and suddenly get sick?

Everyone else is equally as sick- that's why their stability dropped too.

Umi-san said:
I might be convinced by a satisfactorily cogent analysis, however.

1) We basically can't do the study until the disease has died down a little if we want to break the superstition. That should be in ~2 turns. We can't effectively make a vaccine for this if it is the Whooping Cough, so we should wait until it dies down and then do our study to prove that there is no link.
2) Normally we take only the lower classes who are most willing to abandon their lifestyle, the ones with minimal tech knowledge. By taking in more people, we start eating away at their (relatively) middle class and thus have more potential to take a tech upgrade as we take in those with more specialized knowledge.

tryrar · May 10, 2017

hylas240 said:
Considering our civ's experience with inoculation, they have the best chance out of anyone else to create a vaccine (or atleast dispel the bogus belief and unlock another warding mega project).

Study Health seems better than Metal.

Oh, if we have to choose, DEFINITELY Study Health. We just think doing BOTH might get some synergy and/or disprove the debilitating believe we picked up(with a longshot of evolving observance in the process)

Candesce · May 10, 2017

notgreat said:
we should wait until it dies down and then do our study to prove that there is no link.

What makes you think this would do anything to make studying easier, rather than letting the belief become more entrenched?

For that matter, what makes you think it will die down at all?

Malevolo · May 10, 2017

tryrar said:
Oh, if we have to choose, DEFINITELY Study Health. We just think doing BOTH might get some synergy and/or disprove the debilitating believe we picked up(with a longshot of evolving observance in the process)

Study health and study forest, there are some trees that kill bacteria but don't kill the pacient, i could point some of them.

Reader of all · May 10, 2017

[x] Random Construction tech upgrade

We already have a lot of admin tech what we need are ways to make construction easier

[x] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])

Heroes are always good

[x] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)

We nees to bind the march more plus I am curious about what the new effects are

[x] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

I really want us to be at positive stability

hylas240 · May 10, 2017

tryrar said:
Oh, if we have to choose, DEFINITELY Study Health. We just think doing BOTH might get some synergy and/or disprove the debilitating believe we picked up(with a longshot of evolving observance in the process)

I'd really like to do both too, but as it would cost 2 stability for a double main...nope. There's also the Southern Hill people that were only temporarily pacified by our diplo hero. They're gonna need a trade mission in order to pacify them before it turns into a war. I wouldn't care about that normally, but we have a Poor Martial and Heroic Diplomatic leader...it seems like a good idea to play to our strengths.

Who knows, we might get an option to assimilate them?

Candesce · May 10, 2017

Something like this, maybe?

[main] Study health
[secondary] study forests
[secondary] study metal

sidestory · May 10, 2017

hylas240 said:
2) If we take in a full providence worth of people, we'll automatically drop to 3 centralization and will demand trails to fix the issue (though this could be postponed). Also, the huge drop in stability isn't nice, as a Study Health or Study Metal costs stability in order for us to get rid of that dumb ass superstition.

Which is what I'm aiming for
The drop in Cent will allow us to double main new trails and that way prevent the March from drifting culturally further away from us
That in turn will prevent them from taking a shit on us for picking a female king & essentially kicking off a crisis
The Stabilityloss while regrettable is something we can undo in a single turn now that we have a heroic Admin, simple restore order & main GS

Paths of Civilization

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