I would really like to get a "Rule of Law" trait and I think Protective Justice is most likely to get it for us. (I could also image Harmony leading to it.)

[X] Protective Justice

We need literacy:

[X] Spirits

I'm going to abstain from the vote on Patryn. I'm very tempted to just make him heir to resolve the crisis and unify us, hoping his heroic admin can make things work. I also see the argument for passing over him for at least another turn.

And I don't want to give into bullying:

[X] Ignore them
 
[X] Harmony
[X] Spirits
[X] Snub Patryn (Chance for -1 Stability)
[X] Ignore them (Anger the Highlanders)

I considered gambling on taking what seems to be a magnificent hero for our purposes and mending the rift that is steadily widening between the main group and the stallions, but bluefur87 made an excellent point here.
There is another hint here. The current hero unit (because of course another hero unit spawned) can't figure out a way out of this. His one dump stat is Mysticism.

Getting enough shamans to teach everyone is our best chance here.


Trying to figure out what each of the upgrades would do.

Mysticism is what we really need to finish here, and putting him as king has a higher likelihood of causing a setback than it does a proper progression.
He is young and capable, so I hope that he will remain a choice next turn when we (presumably) will have finished the requirements of getting the people educated enough to get everything running smoothly again.

I'm of half a mind to drive out the Highlanders for their insolence, but we were never the aggressive domineering type anyway. If they wanna get angry that an entire other civilization isn't following their demands, they can feel free.
We aint your servants.

edit: im kinda on the fence about the spirits pick, since stability is a constant issue for us recently and its unlikely that the auto actions will be significant in the face of our no doubt next turn main expand holy sites, but theres something to be said for stacking the odds.
 
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Well if Spirits was taken and 3/3 did a Secondary Expand Holy Sites that's 3 secondary actions of Holy Site, before we have to do anything. And I believe that 2 of those 3 fuse into a Main.

*shrug* I ain't all that good at this action econ thing, that's your bailiwick.
Unfortunately we only have 4 econ available, and 1 of that is potentially lost via the crisis. While we hypothetically could get enough econ to get the triple-main, it sounds like the provinces won't do it since that would risk bad admin rolls dropping econ below 0 (and they'd be correct to not do it).

With the upgrade from "small chance" to "chance" for the stability loss, I think that going for the heroic admin might be our best option. Academia Nut's logged off and that means that we're not getting the current crisis situation any time soon, so it's not worth waiting for it. If we make him heir, we still have a "small chance" of resolving it the way we want- but electing him king guarantees that we get out of the crisis without everything failing horribly.

[X] Harmony
[X] Spirits
[X] Make Patryn heir (+1 Stability, Ends the Crisis on his terms [same as father], with a small, conditional chance of actually sorting it out as is [Heroic Admin, Exceptional Diplomacy, Mediocre War, Poor Mysticism])
[X] Ignore them (Anger the Highlanders)

I think that this spread maximizes the small chance of him Patryn actually sorting it out by hinting to him that Shamans are the answer. Spirits focus should only last a single turn before running out of resources, and then we can switch it for free.
Harmony is a trait that we picked up at the very start and haven't yet evolved, and yet it continues to underpin the narrative to a massive degree. I'm not as certain on this one, but I think that it will encourage people to work together and get what needs to be done done, in turn helping us fix the laws so that they work.
These options likely reduce the probability of achieving our best-case scenario but still keeps it. In exchange, we completely eliminate the worst-case scenario of everything failing horribly. I'm not happy with this choice, but I think that it's our best way forward on average; if we get lucky it's better, if we get unlucky it's far better. Only if we hit that middle ground of "we would've been able to succeed in a single turn" and "He couldn't figure it out" does this give us a worse result- and even then, not massively so.

(Side note: WTF is with our hero generation. Isn't is supposed to be halved? Would we be having a hero almost every turn if we didn't have our Humility trait?)
 
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Janteloven, or the Law of Jante when translated into english, is a concept from Scandinavia, orignally coined in a novel from 1933. An unwritten rule that basically says "Don't think you are anything special" and shames anyone who rises above the social order.

I had a minor breakdown about it when we first got Nobility in Humility, if you want to see more. As anyone reading the thread back then can imagine, I am against that particular Upgrade.
 
Doesn't matter, I started the thousandth page:cool:

*Looks at earlier threadlock, infractions, and bans*

About that...
While true I meant that in terms of the Ymrri. Our little darlings are still kicking and providing amusement!

*cooes* Ooooh who's a good civ! Who's a good civ! *more cooing*

Ymrri whimpers in fear.
 
Analysis:

Defense
[] Build Chariots
[] Build Wall
[] Build Watchtowers

Offense
[] Expand Warriors
[] More Blackbirds
[] More Carrion Eaters
[] War Mission

Expansion
[] Expand Economy
[] New Settlement
[] Expand Forests

Progress
[] Art Patronage
[] Study Forests
[] Study Health
[] Study Metal
[] Study Stars

Restoration
[] Establish Annual Festival?
[] Grand Sacrifice
[] Proclaim Glory
[] Restore Order

Spirits
[] Expand Holy Sites

Trade
[] Trade Mission
[] Art Patronage
[] Main Establish Annual Festival?
[] Main Expand Holy Sites?

Only Balanced?
[] Black Soil
[] Copper Mine
[] Enforce Authority
[] Establish Annual Festival
[] Expand Snail Cultivation
[] Improve Kilns
[] More Boats
[] New Trails
[] Sailing Mission
[] Survey Lands

Analysis from this...

Spirits seems damn tight. The only thing they can do is Expand Holy Sites.
Is it something we want to do a lot of? Or could policy free up our secondaries to do Holy Sites ourselves?

Progress seems somewhat flexible, letting them pump Art, and do Study Stars for Mystic.
Do note that progress is the only policy that allows Study Stars (other than balanced)

I'm not sure, but I'm feeling like []Balanced myself.


Janetlov?


I think the Main Expand Holy sites and Main Festivals could be dropped from Trade.
Hence the ? If they cooperate to make it maybe, maybe.
 
Wait can someone explain why we're angling to snub Patryn again? It's not like he can actually destroy the megaproject we just did.
He explicitly says in his option that he will roll back the laws because that's what his father taught him to do, with a small chance that he realizes that "this is better" IF we solve it before he takes power.
You know, if we upgrade Nobility in Humility, we'd get an almost literal Jantelov. "Don't think you are more than us" written in copper tablets.
...that does not sound very desirable.
Only Balanced?
[] Black Soil
[] Copper Mine
[] Enforce Authority
[] Establish Annual Festival
[] Expand Snail Cultivation
[] Improve Kilns
[] More Boats
[] New Trails
[] Sailing Mission
[] Survey Lands
Black Soil should fit in Expand
Copper Mine and Snails produces trade goods, so Trade.
Festivals are Stability(though we're on the last slot anyways)
Boats and Trails are trade routes, so Trade.
Sailing Mission and Survey Lands are discovery, so Progress.
I think Law only upgrades policy related actions, if i'm reading it right...which means that balanced might only get that advantage for Expand Economy, since having the description call that out as counting as a Policy Action for other effects kind of suggests that nothing else counts as a policy action for Balanced
Well, legit case for @Academia Nut to answer.

My impression of Balanced is that it leaves our province to do whatever they want, but that means they won't fuse their actions into Mains, so we only get Main actions from The Law enhancing one of theirs
 
It was enough when also conditions are met, else there wouldn't still be the '?' at the end of it, as such a case has yet to be reached and we have not gurantee that it will be the case I'd rather boost the Stab to max so that when we are forced to make choices there won't be especially hard ones as our civ has confidence in our ability to handle the matter
The question mark is that while the People would prefer it higher, Stability 1 passed the requirments
Maybe, but true and you know it & I rather have you guys be annoyed at my rudeness then the whole thread being salty because they choose the shiny over the sensible choice
False, I even explained it in the post you just quoted. Heck I even switched. Your strawmanning is unnecessarily rude.
 
Analysis from this...

Spirits seems damn tight. The only thing they can do is Expand Holy Sites.
Is it something we want to do a lot of? Or could policy free up our secondaries to do Holy Sites ourselves?

Progress seems somewhat flexible, letting them pump Art, and do Study Stars for Mystic.
Do note that progress is the only policy that allows Study Stars (other than balanced)

I'm not sure, but I'm feeling like []Balanced myself.
We can change it with a secondary latter, and we rather want to focus on the crises for now.
 
I would really like to get a "Rule of Law" trait and I think Protective Justice is most likely to get it for us. (I could also image Harmony leading to it.)
Well: Legalism
Article:
Fǎ-Jiā (法家) or Legalism is one of the six classical schools of thought in Chinese philosophy that developed during the Warring States period. Grouping thinkers with an overriding concern for political reform, the Fa-Jia were crucial in laying the "intellectual and ideological foundations of the traditional Chinese bureaucratic empire",[4] remaining highly influential in administration, policy and legal practice in China today.[5] Largely ignoring morality or questions on how a society ideally should function, they examined contemporary government, emphasizing a realistic consolidation of the wealth and power of autocrat and state, with the goal of achieving increased order, security and stability.[6]

In Imperial China, almost all activities considered by law were linked with a punishment, reinforcing the view of its concerns as being largely criminal.[59] This, however, is incorrect.[60] Contrary to the legal positivism (to which "Chinese Legalism" has sometimes been compared) of figures like John Austin in the west, Han Fei considers punishment and reward resources of, and not the essence of law, or Fa, which might more properly be understood as yardstick,[50] largely focusing on performance.[61] An interpretation of Shang Yang, so-called "Legalists" were concerned not even mainly with law, but with administration;[14][62] although the Han Feizi has implications for the work of judges, it "contains no explicit judicial theory",[63] and is motivated "almost totally from the ruler's point of view."[64]

The Fa-Jia emphasized the importance of Fa,[65] which the appendix to the Book of Changes defines as "to institute something so that we can use it." Part of any institutional structure or process,[66] Fa's basic meanings are "method" and "standard",[67] and are much broader than "law",[14] including rules, measures, codified books,[68] models, technique, or regulation, often implying two or more at the same time.[60]

Historiographer Sima Tan's commonly cited criteria held that the Fa-Jia ignored differences and disregarded kinship, evaluating everyone equally according to Fa, saying that they "are strict and have little kindness, but their alignment of the divisions between lord and subject, superior and inferior, cannot be improved upon... Fajia does not distinguish between kin and stranger or differentiate between noble and base; all are judged as one."[69] This equal treatment may be considered a "Fa-Jia" value, akin to Aristotle's value of freedom,[70] but was intended to support the position, prerogatives and policies of the prince,[71] though by definition Fa is never merely his will.[72]
 
Not really a good gamble?
We're within reach of the solution whether he throws a fit or not. But he can screw it all up still.
I'm hoping that's not simply a matter of RNG, but deterministic about what's happening around him given otherwise it'd be completely arbitrary which has great flaws in a character story. Thus there are many things to go for him changing his mind from being separated from his heroic diplomacy father, him being heroic administration thus able to see both the People's plans and what his father's plan was, and the fact he's going to be spending years as the heir surrounded by people who've spent their entire lives focused on this endevour and the law itself has just been completed and disseminated. To up heave it at that stage would be incredibly disharmonious, thus my vote for which social value to upgrade, and likely cause stability drops when he goes to implement the prior plan as well as pissing of the people within the hierarchy who as King he relies upon greatly.

@Academia Nut - Perhaps you could go more into this option though given how critical it is to the vote itself, and how the text was interpreted.
although as more of a shrewd administrator than brilliant warrior and diplomat he seems like he might be able to actually make the laws as is work... if he sees an actual way forward, which he seems to currently not see.
This for me says that if we can give him a way to proceed forward with the actual law he would do so, but which he currently can't see a solution. I think @veekie that this is where his poor mysticism is hitting him hard as one of the requirements is literacy, and we believe the way to solve that is via expanding holy sites which is where he's struggling due to his poor stat there. If we take actions to solve that and show him the way forward, I feel confident that his heroic administration can tell the benefits, his exceptional diplomacy makes him realize how pissed of people not the Young Stallions would be, and the harmony penalty for otherwise changing at this stage would make him continue on with it's current implementation.
---------

[X] Harmony
[X] Spirits
[X] Make Patryn heir (+1 Stability, Ends the Crisis on his terms [same as father], with a small, conditional chance of actually sorting it out as is [Heroic Admin, Exceptional Diplomacy, Mediocre War, Poor Mysticism])
[X] Ignore them (Anger the Highlanders)

A valid point was made though and due to my above argument I'm changing the policy focus. Given we don't know how many holy site actions would be needed for satisfy the requirements, I've gone with making Spirits the focus so our provinces can take even more actions to expand them on their own.
 
While I'm currently in favor of upgrading Harmony, there's a chance we could upgrade Land of Opportunity to cost (less) Stability. Since we could use the Law to help new people learn the rules.
 
I'm hoping that's not simply a matter of RNG, but deterministic about what's happening around him given otherwise it'd be completely arbitrary which has great flaws in a character story. Thus there are many things to go for him changing his mind from being separated from his heroic diplomacy father, him being heroic administration thus able to see both the People's plans and what his father's plan was, and the fact he's going to be spending years as the heir surrounded by people who've spent their entire lives focused on this endevour and the law itself has just been completed and disseminated. To up heave it at that stage would be incredibly disharmonious, thus my vote for which social value to upgrade, and likely cause stability drops when he goes to implement the prior plan as well as pissing of the people within the hierarchy who as King he relies upon greatly.
He's been raised with his father beating it into his head that the state's ideals are impossible, that they should abandon all this nonsense for older simpler ways, and then he grew up, considered the administration, mathed it out and declared it impossible because he's a genius and there's no way to optimize it into a success.

His province has adopted the Nomads Family First values, which his father enforced by making all the chiefs directly descending from him. So he will respect the opinions of his family over those not of his family.

I think you'd be very surprised at how much people tend to adopt their parents beliefs, especially when said parent is still alive(see update), if too old to rule.
If we snub him for one more turn the old man would be too dead to reinforce his beliefs and we have a workable solution for him to see.
 
We can change it with a secondary latter, and we rather want to focus on the crises for now.

Yes, but

Spirits policy
T1) Free Main action 1
T1) Free Secondary action 1
T1) Free Secondary action 2
T1) Province Holy Site 1
T1) Province Holy Site 2
T1) Province Holy Site 3 (Effectively 1 Main, 1 Secondary Holy Site without doing anything)

T2) Free Main action 2
T2) Free Secondary action 3
T2) Policy change

Sum: 2 Main and 3 Secondary on top of Holy Sites(1M1S0

Other policy
T1) Main Holy Site
T1) Secondary Holy Site
T1) Free Secondary action 1
T1) Province ? Secondary 1
T1) Province ? Secondary 2
T1) Province ? Secondary 3

T2) Free Main action 1
T2) Free Secondary action 2
T2) Free Secondary action 3
Sum: 1 Main and 3 Secondary + 3 Free province action +Holy Sites(1M1S)

We'd have gained 1 Secondary action, by not having to swap a policy after just 1 turn.

Unless you want 1 Main 1 Secondary Expand Holy Sites every turn for 2 turns at least?
 
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We'd have gained 1 Secondary action, by not having to swap a policy after just 1 turn.
We get a free swap if it runs out of resources. (which it almost certainly will)

Since he's back on...
@Academia Nut
1) Will we have the chance to elect Patryn next turn as well?
2) If we do not have the crisis completed after next turn's actions, will we have a mid-turn to potentially change/fix things or will the crisis fail situation immediately hit?
3) Can we pretty please see the current state of the crisis requirements? :)
 
We get a free swap if it runs out of resources. (which it almost certainly will)

Since he's back on...
@Academia Nut
1) Will we have the chance to elect Patryn next turn as well?
2) If we do not have the crisis completed after next turn's actions, will we have a mid-turn to potentially change/fix things or will the crisis fail situation immediately hit?
3) Can we pretty please see the current state of the crisis requirements? :)

It's just 1 econ per action. With baby boom, we're never gonna run out of econ. And if we do, we'll be left at 1 Econ.
 
Yes, but

Spirits policy
T1) Free Main action 1
T1) Free Secondary action 1
T1) Free Secondary action 2
T1) Province Holy Site 1
T1) Province Holy Site 2
T1) Province Holy Site 3 (Effectively 1 Main, 1 Secondary Holy Site without doing anything)

T2) Free Main action 2
T2) Free Secondary action 3
T2) Policy change

Sum: 2 Main and 3 Secondary on top of Holy Sites(1M1S0

Other policy
T1) Main Holy Site
T1) Secondary Holy Site
T1) Free Secondary action 1
T1) Province ? Secondary 1
T1) Province ? Secondary 2
T1) Province ? Secondary 3

T2) Free Main action 1
T2) Free Secondary action 2
T2) Free Secondary action 3
Sum: 1 Main and 3 Secondary + 3 Free province action +Holy Sites(1M1S)

We'd have gained 1 Secondary action, by not having to swap a policy after just 1 turn.

Unless you want 1 Main 1 Secondary Expand Holy Sites every turn for 2 turns at least?
Remember the Literacy isn't the only thing we need to patch over. We have to account for the possibility that the angry Highlanders will lock up a secondary, or that Nomad raids intensify again, or that the Young Stallions will horse around and screw up the Stability.

And secondly, considering how little we've upgraded our Holy Sites, having the Policy run for a few turns is not necessarily a bad thing.
 
Well, legit case for @Academia Nut to answer.

My impression of Balanced is that it leaves our province to do whatever they want, but that means they won't fuse their actions into Mains, so we only get Main actions from The Law enhancing one of theirs

Basically, Balanced takes whatever actions, but only Expand Economy can be doubled by the Written Code of Laws or any other things that work off of Policy Actions because it has no real focus. That's so that you can't set it to balanced and expect to get double strength stuff without setting an explicit focus.

Perhaps you could go more into this option though given how critical it is to the vote itself, and how the text was interpreted.

If you pick the right choices, there is a small chance that he sees a path forward and takes that, but if you don't choose the things that might make a solution viable next turn he will resolve things his way, and he might do that anyway even if there is a solution possible.

1) Will we have the chance to elect Patryn next turn as well?

Possibly.

2) If we do not have the crisis completed after next turn's actions, will we have a mid-turn to potentially change/fix things or will the crisis fail situation immediately hit?

If you do not have the actions in place to complete it next turn, then the mid-turn decision will be on what bad choices you want to eat.

3) Can we pretty please see the current state of the crisis requirements?

Requirements to fix: Restore stability?, restore legitimacy, The Law?, literacy??
 
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