You don't think Progress would also help with that? It does seem to be the science focused. That's why I think so.
No, I do not. Please do not chase the shinies!

Study actions are people going out and discovering stuff and then reporting it back. There may be some talk of writing stuff down there, but it will be much more rare and the shamans will be the ones writing it down.

Art Patronage is worse. All it will do is have people make fancy pots, dyes, and pictures. There is no need to study writing there at all.

Expand Holy sites gets us more shamans, the explicit class of citizens that will learn writing in their free time, if not as a primary duty. It was even first invented by shamans. The upgrade to writing came from study stars.

Remember the option when we could have had elders going out into the villages to teach them? That is what we want now, to explicitly expand our class that is focused on learning. Expand Holy sites is, absolutely, our way out of this. The only other thing that might work is another festival, but we'd still need more shamans to make it work.

Please, we're so close. Don't just chase the shiny! :cry:
 
[X] Protective Justice
I see room for improvment.
[X] Spirits
I want illiteracy gone.
[X] Snub Patryn (Chance for -1 Stability)
[X] Ignore them (Anger the Highlanders)
 
Definitely, but I'd still vote for Progress first so the crisis will end and then switch over to Restoration. Problem so far is Literacy
first there is that
Literacy is shamans' work. Spirits is absolutely what we should take if we want to fix the crises at the moment.
second
You don't think Progress would also help with that? It does seem to be the science focused. That's why I think so.
It won't as our problem is not having not enough science but not having enough people that can read
That's why progress is not the sensible option at the moment

Also considering that we aren't even sure that Stab 1 is high enough to match the conditions that are needed to end this crisis I would rather play it safe and let our provinces do Stab actions, then chase the shiny & gamble our civ by encouraging our provinces to do something that might not even be related to the problem at hand
 
[X] Harmony
[X] Spirits
[X] Make Patryn heir (+1 Stability, Ends the Crisis on his terms [same as father], with a small, conditional chance of actually sorting it out as is [Heroic Admin, Exceptional Diplomacy, Mediocre War, Poor Mysticism])
[X] Ignore them (Anger the Highlanders)

As of right now, we have Stability 1 and the problem with the crises is literacy. Would it not be better to do progress first so more people are literate first?

Last time we had stability 1 there was still a question mark in the Crisis info section under stability, though. We might need the additional stability-especially if we decide to throw away the Heroic Administrator.
 
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As of right now, we have Stability 1 and the problem with the crises is literacy. Would it not be better to do progress first so more people are literate first?

Definitely, but I'd still vote for Progress first so the crisis will end and then switch over to Restoration. Problem so far is Literacy
We need increased stability and more shamans to end the crisis. Progress does neither of those things.
 
[] Protective Justice
[] Harmony

Of the available upgrades, these have been given the least opportunity to evolve despite being our older traits. I prefer Harmony, but Protective Justice seems more appropriate.

Progress - Takes studying actions and art patronage

[X] Progress

This is something we need, to help take care of any problems we still have with the crisis

[X] Snub Patryn (Chance for -1 Stability)

We are so close. He is a definite shiny, but that means tossing the progress we made on the crises aside.

[X] Ignore them (Anger the Highlanders)

It angers them, but no chance of war is given. We can smooth feathers when we no longer have a crises on our hands.


Literacy
Hey Sivantic? Why are you going for Progress over Spirits?

What's your reasoning that says to you it will solve the crisis?
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Apr 30, 2017 at 2:56 PM, finished with 39 posts and 16 votes.
 
Last time we had stability 1 there was still a question mark in the Crisis info section under stability, though. We might need the additional stability-especially if we decide to throw away the Heroic Administrator.
But, if we go for spirits then our literacy rate should climb. We need something that can push us into literacy green light, because we should now have one turn to resolve the crisis, and we are at literacy??. Two question marks imply double work is necessary to green light the problem.
 
[X] Harmony
[X] Spirits
[X] Snub Patryn (Chance for -1 Stability)
[X] Ignore them (Anger the Highlanders)
 
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Despite being a major proponent of beating the crisis... I'm not certain we can. It looks like the megaproject may have completed Communication only, not Literacy. It took 8 raw actions (done via 4 actions, 2 actions for stability and 3 actions for the econ) to solve that problem. Until we see the current crisis situation, I won't vote either way. A Heroic admin could be really, really useful.

And it sounds like the Baby Boom might be ending. Hard to tell for certain.
 
Despite being a major proponent of beating the crisis... I'm not certain we can. It looks like the megaproject may have completed Communication only, not Literacy. It took 8 raw actions (done via 4 actions, 2 actions for stability and 3 actions for the econ) to solve that problem. Until we see the current crisis situation, I won't vote either way. A Heroic admin could be really, really useful.

And it sounds like the Baby Boom might be ending. Hard to tell for certain.
You have been putting far too much weight on action economy.

One of those dilemmas only took one action to fix, they are not all equal.
 
However this heroic admin will revert our taxation to what it was before and get us family based inheritance something we really do not want, it seems like the spirits policy which expands holy sites would be the one to provide the most bonuses to literacy. We might also want to consider at least one festival action next turn in case we lose stability.
 
Hey Sivantic? Why are you going for Progress over Spirits?

What's your reasoning that says to you it will solve the crisis?

Obviously sivantic (& half of the thread) is currently chasing the shiny & therefore not all that reasonable
I suggest to wait a bit & give them time to pull back and consider the facts & well reasoned arguements that point out that Progress is more a problem creater then a problem solver for the current crisis

...Well either that or wait until @veekie comes online and pulls the thread back onto the harmonious path
 
No, I do not. Please do not chase the shinies!

Study actions are people going out and discovering stuff and then reporting it back. There may be some talk of writing stuff down there, but it will be much more rare and the shamans will be the ones writing it down.

Art Patronage is worse. All it will do is have people make fancy pots, dyes, and pictures. There is no need to study writing there at all.

Expand Holy sites gets us more shamans, the explicit class of citizens that will learn writing in their free time, if not as a primary duty. It was even first invented by shamans. The upgrade to writing came from study stars.

Remember the option when we could have had elders going out into the villages to teach them? That is what we want now, to explicitly expand our class that is focused on learning. Expand Holy sites is, absolutely, our way out of this. The only other thing that might work is another festival, but we'd still need more shamans to make it work.

Please, we're so close. Don't just chase the shiny! :cry:
*poke*

Why haven't you voted yet?

Obviously sivantic (& half of the thread) is currently chasing the shiny & therefore not all that reasonable
I suggest to wait a bit & give them time to pull back and consider the facts & well reasoned arguements that point out that Progress is more a problem creater then a problem solver for the current crisis

...Well either that or wait until @veekie comes online and pulls the thread back onto the harmonious path
Query: why are you going for Restoration over Spirits? Reasoning?
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Apr 30, 2017 at 3:08 PM, finished with 50 posts and 20 votes.
 
Why are we at 1 stability? I am seriously confused. Didn't we gain 2 stability from Grand Sacrifice combined to form a main action? 2+0 should = 2, what am I missing?
 
You have been putting far too much weight on action economy.

One of those dilemmas only took one action to fix, they are not all equal.
Literacy is a hard problem: not very many pre-modern societies had anything close to universal literacy. Now, we shouldn't need universal literacy, but the question remains as to how much we need. Is a single expand holy sites enough? Do we need to double main it? Triple main?
We don't know, and I'm not sure if it's worth the risk. I'm waiting until we get the current status though, since that will at least partially resolve the unknowns.
 
Good thing I checked in before going to bed it seems.

Diplomacy 5
Economy 5(+1) -> 4

Well, grand sacrifices dings it again. No biggie.

Martial 8->9

This March thing is interesting. Random stat growth in exchange for absorbing our Baby Boom?

Stability 0->1 (confident)

And it's up again.

Art 3->1
Mysticism 2->1

Megaproject costs, nothing to see here. Worryingly low aside

Prestige 4->5

And we're famous!

Written Code of Laws (Copper Age)
Bold, early innovators, the People have established an early written code of laws. While it will undoubtedly change over the centuries, this early establishment of what the rules definitely are with clear guidelines for punishment will serve as an important cornerstone for maintaining stability and clarity of order. Upgrades Enforce Authority to Enforce Law, doubles the strength of one Policy action per turn, and allows for the 'Megaproject support' Policy.
Ooo, Enforce Authority upgrade. Not that we've ever used that before.
And now we can allow our provinces to do MAIN actions on their own.

This is currently the most significant when it comes to Settlements, as Main Settlements are qualitatively better in every respect and costs no more.
The People defined themselves around the care they had for the land and for each other, with the scope of who was a person defined broadly. The People were few in the world, but what mattered most was not who your parents were or where you were born, or even what language you spoke, but that you followed the rules for harmony with yourself, your neighbours, the spirits, and the world around you.
Definitely a quality arising from our constant acceptance of migrants.
Through great effort and disturbance to people who had never really been asked these questions before, the chiefs and shamans had actually written every rule and tradition down, sorted out what they felt was appropriate to keep and what should probably not continue on, actually wrote down what the rules were for everyone, and then made sure to distribute out written copies of what all of the rules were and placed in places where everyone could see them. It would still be up to the chiefs and shamans to interpret the edge cases, but now everyone who could read would know exactly what the laws were.
And now everyone knows the rules.

Well, if they could read it.

As granary stores continued to fluctuate unpredictably, the predictions of consumption and production clearly off in ways that had never been an issue in previous generations. While some of it was that the rains in recent years seemed less strong than they had been, there were still issues of the harvest not being quite right. Although, with more and more people asking questions about the new steles being installed to proclaim the law, it was starting to become clear that one of the biggest issues was who was supposed to do what work. It seemed plausible that there was a large amount of secondary work that the chiefs had once never even thought about that the People were only doing sporadically because they were afraid that they would be punished or taxed for doing it. This obviously needed to be corrected, but they needed more people who could read the law to be able to make sense of everything and make clear that people what was taxable action and what was not, for both the basic person on the ground and for the lower level chiefs who might be confused or corrupt enough to make a hash of the whole thing.
And we hit the classic hitch of the State Economy, which is that people don't do things on their own for fear of getting in the way of the State.

New social advancements have opened up new abilities for the king to direct lower level chiefs, opening up the Policy system
Policies give directive to the provincial chiefs and allow for greater flexibility in provincial actions, including combining the actions of multiple provinces into Main actions and spending resources even if not normally allowed (resource allocation will avoid reducing a stat to below 1). If there are not enough resources to continue a policy the chiefs will take actions to attempt to support continued policy use (usually Expand Economy to make more Econ to pay for things). Changing policies normally requires a Secondary action, but if war is declared can freely switch to the Defence or Offence Policy if so desired. Also, if a Policy runs out of necessary resources it can also be changed during the midterm for free, if desired.
So Policy actions will:
-Upgrade 1 random Policy action to Main
-Allow Provinces to combine actions into Main actions
-Allows Provinces to combine actions to accelerate a Megaproject and The Law upgrade a Secondary into a Main.
--This means we can Quadruple Main a Megaproject if we had the resources to pay for it. And then Kick it. In theory, given a glut of Economy and Stability, we could build the dam in ONE TURN.

This means our provinces can take two Main actions in pursuit of policy.

Meanwhile, up north Cwriid, the Old Stallion, takes an honourable retirement in favour of one of his sons instead of waiting to die and potentially letting his heirs squabble among each other at the last minute instead of accepting the initial election. His son, Patryn, the New Stallion, remains an ardent supporter of his father's policies, although as more of a shrewd administrator than brilliant warrior and diplomat he seems like he might be able to actually make the laws as is work... if he sees an actual way forward, which he seems to currently not see.
Goddamit Creed.
But he's open to having his mind changed if we can progress.
Of course, the rest of the world will not allow the People to simply be, and events start moving elsewhere. The Dead Priests, long out of the news of the world for the People, have apparently decided that the squabble between the Thunder Horse and the Highlanders is the ideal time to attempt to reconquer territory lost generations ago, although by all accounts they don't do very well in the face of either group, with the Highlanders in particular beating face against both groups, although there are also curious rumours about the Thunder Horse acting very oddly in the far east. The word from the Stallion Tribes is also that new nomadic groups are moving into the area and beginning to harass them, but they will deal with it - although support from the rest of the People would of course be greatly appreciated.
Dead Priest Cockroaches 2, Cock-Again.
Knew they'd be back and it's now a full out three way brawl.

Nomad Cockroaches 3, Locust Swarm.
War is going to be increasingly inconvenient.

Thunder Horse seems to have run into their eastern cousins who ran off to the distance and were never seen again.
Unfortunately, now feeling confident, the Highlanders of course had to send a trade delegation with the explicit intent to bully and harass the People into reopening their trade with them, and only them, actively excluding the Thunder Horse traders from even entering the territory of the People. This has obviously angered a number of people.
Cock
Choose a value to evolve as reward
[] Divine Stewards

Focuses the Law on the Work done for the land. I don't think this needs much enhancement here. It's a highly evolved trait and a Law upgrade here would just focus even more on the megaprojects we're already very good at.

[] Protective Justice

Focuses the Law on Justice. Likely pursues Justice as it's own virtue, which is dual edged of course, but might start granting us special actions from here to lay down the law.

[] Land of Opportunity

Focuses the Law on Charity and Migration. Likely grants us an increased chance of not losing Stability on taking in refugees as we institute laws which handle how to treat and integrate refugees.

[] Harmony

Focuses the Law on Social Order. Might improve Restore Order or help cushion Stability hits

[] Honourable Death

Not very sure what this might turn into. Any thoughts?
Might be a Greater Good Fusion, which is a mixed blessing.
Or it might work out means of REWARDING martyrdom.

[] Nobility in Humility

Results unclear. Link to our recent grand sacrifices?

Policy considerations
[] Balanced

Basically the Trust option. It's a good default if we have multiple different concerns to take care of, as the provinces aren't stupid.

[] Defence

This enables the provinces to build Large walls and Many Watchtowers. A huge boon to protecting us from raiding. However, war declarations also will trigger a free policy change, so we don't need to choose this unless we START a war.

[] Expansion

This...is currently the 'optimal' option. Forest Growth is normally not a good option to take as Secondary as it produces no gains, but the free Main upgrade and the option to fuse actions will make it productive.
And there's basically no reason to Secondary Settlements with this, giving us a great boost in Holy Site growth.

[] Offence

This lets the provinces take War actions, so everyone can raid on their own. Extremely powerful in war, and also enables them to Main chariots and specialists. However, this is dangerous, because almost everything in Offense costs a shitload of Economy

[] Progress

Main Study Actions COST Mysticism, which is paid for by Study Stars.
Art Patronage generates art to fuel Proclaim Glory however.
This is the Idle option. We choose this when we don't want the stats to change lots.

[] Restoration

Grand Sacrifice, Festival, Restore Order and Proclaim Glory.
Very convenient, but also very expensive.
This should only be taken if:
-We're at Stability -2
-We have at least 7 Economy

[] Spirits

Expand Holy Site. Current fastest way to raise Literacy. And unlock more Shrine upgrades due to the Main effect. AND adds Art.
This should be the solution to the literacy problem if coupled to a Main Festival

[] Trade

Expand Trails, More Boats, Trade Mission and Snails
Overall this is what we use to reabsorb the March.

Now to catch up on thread, then vote.
 
Please, we're so close. Don't just chase the shiny! :cry:
It's not shiny chasing, it was my guess as to how to solve the literacy problem. Reading back, it does seem that expanding Holy Sites would help more.

I still think Progress would give Literacy, but not to the extent Spirits would.
Also considering that we aren't even sure that Stab 1 is high enough to match the conditions that are needed to end this crisis I would rather play it safe and let our provinces do Stab actions, then chase the shiny & gamble our civ by encouraging our provinces to do something that might not even be related to the problem at hand
It was enough, AN had it at green as opposed to normal text when it was at zero.
Hey Sivantic? Why are you going for Progress over Spirits?

What's your reasoning that says to you it will solve the crisis?
My thinking was that more science grants more knowledge and more literacy. Thinking about it further, I say it deepens our knowledge base, but doesn't expand it.
Obviously sivantic (& half of the thread) is currently chasing the shiny & therefore not all that reasonable
I suggest to wait a bit & give them time to pull back and consider the facts & well reasoned arguements that point out that Progress is more a problem creater then a problem solver for the current crisis
Rude

@2xMachina I believe I was wrong, Spirit might be the better choice for Literacy.

[X] Protective Justice
[X] Spirits
[X] Snub Patryn (Chance for -1 Stability)
[X] Ignore them (Anger the Highlanders)
 
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