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Paths of Civilization

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bluefur87 said:
So, I don't see this being put forward. I'm not sure if it will change people's opinions, but I honestly want to have this discussion in general to remind people, we need to find a way to deal with this shit.

This event is quite clearly hitting some parts of protective justice. People are breaking the law and we need to fix that shit by serving justice. Restoration of Order is directly dealing with this, even more definitively making this a protective justice action.

If The Greater Good actually procs on this action, that will mean a single action should trigger two of our social traits, which should combine them into a single trait.

A trait created by Restore Order, which is very likely to give us a better version of Restore Order as a result.

I will grant this chance is 'tiny', but it is there, and we can actually make it possible to happen while not screwing our civilization over. The reward, meanwhile, would likely be seeing something akin to Restoration of Harmony not only being back, but much more solidly within our societal standards.
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That is actually a good point.

Thing about corruption is that people would not do it without being unsure of the government, so crackdown is best coupled with something to tell them we do care, like festival or sacrifice.

OTOH, more blackbirds will give us enough to be both police and scouts.
 
ctulhuslp said:
That is actually a good point.

Thing about corruption is that people would not do it without being unsure of the government, so crackdown is best coupled with something to tell them we do care, like festival or sacrifice.

OTOH, more blackbirds will give us enough to be both police and scouts.
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Hmm!

On that festival note. We are already doing that in a way with the compromise vote currently leading.
More Blackbirds and a festival. Not a direct Restore Order but it has pieces of it by making more birds.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Apr 18, 2017 at 11:58 PM, finished with 19128 posts and 46 votes.
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Malevolo said:
So we if we want a family to be relocated... the receiving family will have to pay a full year of harvest (or equivalent) to the relocated family? the price would be based on whom much the relocated family has produced in a year. So even if a local chief moves the hard-workers, the price of relocating a hard-worker will be exorbitant...and this only can be done after a generation?

What do you think?
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If a family owns a large enough amount of land they can pony up a large amount of money/etc. to buy more land. If the receiving family has an otherwise unmet need for income, they are likely to accept the deal regardless of how negative it is for them in the long term. Especially if they are competent and have faith that they can turn around a poorer farm, which will gradually lead to poorer members being ostracized from the center of society as farms near places of power or decent farming sites are bought up by families of power, and families which are poor but skilled and hard-working are obliged to move to positions that need and will accept them - i.e., generally the newest, smallest settlements and worst pieces of land.

veekie said:
Bad idea, especially with our refugee influxes and megaprojects.
You often need to shuffle more experienced and skilled workers off their normal duties to deal with more difficult land.

Which is to say our Last Hit Swap chiefs? They're doing the optimal thing where land management is concerned. Have experienced crews break up the soil, set up the foundational plantings and terraces, then move them to the next problem site, while less skilled crews can tend the now easy to work land.

What's fucked up is that they cheated the reward system, so the experienced crews AREN'T getting rewarded.
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Agreed-ish, but your protest doesn't account for variable inflexible terms that take into account the average time to turn around a plot of land.

Furthermore, it assumes that less skilled crews will work the "now easier to work" (semi-debatable; it's more just that it takes less labor and more care) land as well as experienced crews would, getting as much produce out of it. This is unlikely.

Especially if it's due to nepotism, which is what's occurring. While some nepotized people can actually possess skill, the trend in regards to nepotism in the negative sense is that they do not possess sufficient qualifications for a particular job.

Inflexible terms for families of set general skill levels or for individuals of appropriate skills - regardless of family ties and possibly viable as a parallel structure to accommodate unpaired individuals - which are set to an appropriate project-specific length of time and which shift in demands to accommodate the actual state of the land and the type of care it requires is the best compromise.

BungieONI said:
Hmm!

On that festival note. We are already doing that in a way with the compromise vote currently leading.
More Blackbirds and a festival. Not a direct Restore Order but it has pieces of it by making more birds.
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Tbqh, I'd rather do Main Blackbirds + Main Restore Order, then Festivals next turn w/ Province & Trails. Purge now, appease tomorrow.
 
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tryrar said:
this is pure speculation. We need something more solid than speculation for this.
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Our only combination trait that we got other than our Divine Steward's 'auto update' one is Land of Opportunity.

The event where we took in the nomads was closely related to 'Sharing Circle' and effectively procced off of it. Simultaniously, because we had been fighting them, we lost a point of stability doing it, which procced Pioneering Spirit. Thus we got an event that simultaneously procced two traits, which then proceeded to evolve into Land of Opportunity.

Without us lucking into a trait evolution and just choosing, this is probably about as reasonably sure as we can get on how to evolve one.

I will, however, grant that the chance of The Greater Good proccing is 'tiny'. I just argue that it's reward would be immense. To be fair, even if we don't get the trait (I would be genuinely surprised) we would end up at 0 stability and then gain 0-3 stability from there.

BungieONI said:
Ok I agree this is a possibility. But like you say it is a tiny one. Unless you meant that Restore Order proccing TGG was a tiny chance? Either way I'm wondering If we want to feed TGG into a trait or feed a trait into TGG.

Hmm.
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I'm talking about the chance of TGG to proc. I'm reasonably certain that if it does under these circumstances, it would evolve with Protective Justice.
 
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If we don't Restore Order now, we might get one during the mid-turn event. Granted, it won't be a main Restore.

If the primary reason people aren't going for Restore is because it has a chance of backfiring, secondary Restore Order and secondary Festivals is an option that still has us running a Restore when we hit the mid-turn event; not sure how well it'll work out, but it's there, if people are willing to put off Study Metal for a turn.
 
BungieONI said:
Hmm!

On that festival note. We are already doing that in a way with the compromise vote currently leading.
More Blackbirds and a festival. Not a direct Restore Order but it has pieces of it by making more birds.
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So what? In any country, not doing a police action when there is blatant corruption is inane and bound to piss victims off; if I were AN I would give us stability hit if we do not take RO this turn to reflect populace being understandably angry there is no justice.
 
ctulhuslp said:
So what? In any country, not doing a police action when there is blatant corruption is inane and bound to piss victims off; if I were AN I would give us stability hit if we do not take RO this turn to reflect populace being understandably angry there is no justice.
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We're setting up for it. Right now our police/blackbird force is too small to do the job effectively, so we're expanding them and preparing for the crackdown next turn. Bread and circuses (festival) this turn while we build up the police force, then we can be better set up with a well-trained and much expanded force for next turn.
 
Malevolo said:
Nah, sometimes we need salt, it preserves things, purify places and ward against spirits.
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Do Brazilians do the whole sage thing or is that limited to the American Southwest & PNW/Cascadia?

Also, do these terms mean anything to you? By "sage thing" I mean ritually burning sage in order to purify a space and ward against spirits. By American Southwest I mean the dry, desert/mesa and chapparal-ish regions of America, which range from New Mexico to Arizona to a bit below San Francisco. By PNW I mean the "Pacific Northwest," aka an area ranging from vancouver to San Francisco and a state or two inland, which generally has the same climate and set of ecotones.
 
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Umi-san said:
Do Brazilians do the whole sage thing or is that limited to the American Southwest & PNW/Cascadia?
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Whom can i say this, we have so much religious syncretism (Catholic Church, African-American Religions, Native American rituals) that it really depends on the family, my mother does it with incenses, but really depends of the particular family practices.

Catholics do it, people who practice African-Americans religions do it, people with Native American ancestry do it, only the crazy evangelicals don't because it's a thing from Satan...
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Umi-san on Apr 19, 2017 at 12:08 AM, finished with 19132 posts and 48 votes.
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Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 754 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.6
[1] Kick the garden.
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[29][Main] More Blackbirds
[10][Main] Expand Warriors
[5][Main] New Settlement - Eastern Hills
[2][Main] Grand Sacrifice
[1][Main] Mega project - The Garden
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[22][Secondary] Study Metal
[21][Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
[15][Secondary] Restore Order x2
[12][Secondary] Restore Order
[4][Secondary] Expand Annual Festival
[4][Secondary] New Trails
[4][Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[2][Secondary] Build Wall - Eastern Hills
[2][Secondary] More Blackbirds
[1][Secondary] Mega project - The Garden x2
[1][Secondary] Study Stars
[1][Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x 2
Total No. of Voters: 47
Here, have a tal...
*Checks voters to see whose fault this is.*
@lioli @Manget @Spectrum You voted for Restore Order x2, but not Restore Order as a secondary. You need both.
And half ninja'd by Umi
 
Umi-san said:
@Academia Nut Can the initial decrease inherent in Restore Order trigger The Greater Good's anti-stability-drop function?
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Note the phrasing:
The Greater Good (LoO Linked)
The good of the many outweighs the good of the few, or the one. Temporary discomfort is to be endured for future prosperity and safety. And sometimes, more profound sacrifices must be made...
Pros: Any decision that can cause stability loss has a tiny chance of causing stability gain instead, new actions available
Cons: Sometimes people start looking for someone else to make the hard sacrifices, certain bad behaviours are more self-justifiable
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So it sounds like yes, ANY decrease has a chance of replacing the decrease with a Stability gain, but Greater Good can prevent the loss entirely(which is significant, because a temporary loss still triggers bad events, but a replaced loss does not)

So Main Restore Order goes from:
1) -1 Stability
2) +1d4-1 Stability Rerolled

Possible outcomes:
-1
+0
+1
+2

To:
1) -1 Or +1 Stability
2) +1d4-1 Stability

Possible outcomes:
-1
+0
+1(slightly more likely)
+2(slightly more likely)
+3
+4

...you know, I wonder if the Main Restore Order roll rerolls the Greater Good trigger?

Umi-san said:
Agreed-ish, but your protest doesn't account for variable inflexible terms that take into account the average time to turn around a plot of land.

Furthermore, it assumes that less skilled crews will work the "now easier to work" (semi-debatable; it's more just that it takes less labor and more care) land as well as experienced crews would, getting as much produce out of it. This is unlikely.

Especially if it's due to nepotism, which is what's occurring. While some nepotized people can actually possess skill, the trend in regards to nepotism in the negative sense is that they do not possess sufficient qualifications for a particular job.

Inflexible terms for families of set general skill levels or for individuals of appropriate skills - regardless of family ties and possibly viable as a parallel structure to accommodate unpaired individuals - which are set to an appropriate project-specific length of time and which shift in demands to accommodate the actual state of the land and the type of care it requires is the best compromise.
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I think the main issue with that is it's complex, meaning Hierarchy rises to actually deal with the circumstantial inflexible terms.
 
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@veekie, the question's basically whether or not "decision" in "Any decision that can cause stability loss" is being treated colloquially or as a specific game term - because if it's the second, it might only apply to event choices.

But I suspect AGG applies to Restore Order, myself.

Edit: Well. That was a very interesting Insightful Academia Nut just gave me.
 
veekie said:
I think the main issue with that is it's complex, meaning Hierarchy rises to actually deal with the circumstantial inflexible terms.
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What solution would you propose that would solve this problem without an increase in Hierarchy? Please include significant flaws, challenges, and projected long term outcomes.

I apologize if you have already answered this question. If so, feel free to link to it. If what quotes you have available are not cogent and succinct, a reply that can stand on its own or additional commentary would be appreciated.
 
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