...but it wouldn't have made any difference? Like, part of the reason we got spanked there was that we sent cart warriors against Berserkers as an emergency move to save Bynwyn, and we discovered why cavalry was used mainly for skirmishing(i.e. that they are not really any better than any other warrior in melee)

The Nomads didn't even move until our forces were wrecked.
they're not really any better than any other warrior in melee because the way they're used is basically getting out of them to melee or quickly riding by smashing heads, which gives ppl a chance to kill our ponies and is thus dumb.

Tbh, I rly want us to develop cart archers so that I can write a romantic omake about a driver/archer pair. (Not that I will write it cus I'm lazy but idk)
 
How so? I don't really see how it's for or against any of our values? It's kinda neutral, really.
I'm totally not back, and I imagine it's caused by a minor conflict with Harmony, which wants us to be good neighbors. And letting thousands die to plague because "My magic! MINE!" doesn't fit well into that.

The mechanical sign is the "small chance to lose stability". A chance at losing stability means we're doing something our people don't like. If the people don't like it at a large enough scale to even risk a stability drop, then it must be because it's conflicting with widely accepted cultural value. I'll concede that it isn't a major problem though, since does have the descriptor "small". But it's still there, proof that this isn't an "ok" thing for our culture, and it's values.

2990
 
*Looks at several month to year long land routes.*

I'm pretty sure we're at least as big as Austrailia at this point. More specifically, I'm pretty sure we're next to the not!black sea.
or we are all dwarves 2 feet in height, and thus travel slowly. Soon the druids will come to our lands with their gods and kill recklessly, forcing us to live under the hills and travel through rings of mushrooms.
 
?? Vaccines are definitionally health care. It's not difficult to control, it is difficult to maintain tho cus u need a large enough pop of cows. Our enemies are a) nomads who aren't allies, b) the DP. Potential enemies are a) the HK, b) the MW. Potential allies are a) the TH, b) the coastal minors that we'll be assimilating soon. If we fracture we fracture. I ship the inevitable shift toward a Riot-style quest that will ensue.
Actually, the big challenges with the Warding Ritual are:
-Maintaining availability of sick cows. This is not a big problem for Nomad or Nomad based cultures
-Identifying the right kind of sick cows. This takes specialists.
-Transmitting cowpox reliably. This is not a big problem for cultures with metal tools.
-Transmitting nothing else while you do it. This is not a big problem for cultures with hygiene taboos, but said cultures are also going to take Stability hits to implement this.
-Transmitting the correct ritual over language to language, person to person, and generation to generation. This is not a big problem for cultures with writing and a powerful priest caste.

Overall, considering the last factor, I doubt anyone who doesn't get shown the correct ritual by us is going to get it right. The incorrect ritual would infect them with a variety of nasty diseases.
they're not really any better than any other warrior in melee because the way they're used is basically getting out of them to melee or quickly riding by smashing heads, which gives ppl a chance to kill our ponies and is thus dumb.

Tbh, I rly want us to develop cart archers so that I can write a romantic omake about a driver/archer pair. (Not that I will write it cus I'm lazy but idk)
Cart archers are a desire of mine too, we just don't have the support base for them to be effective in war yet unless we decide to go nomadic.

What wouldn't I give for a goddamned massed combat innovation so our archers can volley...
 
[X] [Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
Task: King
[X] [King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
Task: Refugee
[X][Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
Task: Sacrifice
[X] [Sacrifice] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
Task: Ward
[X] [Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)

Why is this winning? Mechanically it has a very high chance of leaving us at -2 stability, a much smaller but still reasonable chance of leaving us at -1 stability, and a small but real chance of breaking us! (If we roll for the small chance of stability loss before the King vote comes in and lose, or if the King vote doesn't help and the Ward rolls badly-remember, we fracture the moment we hit -3 stability, not at the end of the turn like other civs.)

And narratively it makes no sense! This is against everything our people have ever stood for-Charity and Justice!

Edit: Seriously, even if the stars align and everything goes perfectly, we get...2 econ.
 
Last edited:
Actually, the big challenges with the Warding Ritual are:
-Maintaining availability of sick cows. This is not a big problem for Nomad or Nomad based cultures
-Identifying the right kind of sick cows. This takes specialists.
-Transmitting cowpox reliably. This is not a big problem for cultures with metal tools.
-Transmitting nothing else while you do it. This is not a big problem for cultures with hygiene taboos, but said cultures are also going to take Stability hits to implement this.
-Transmitting the correct ritual over language to language, person to person, and generation to generation. This is not a big problem for cultures with writing and a powerful priest caste.

Overall, considering the last factor, I doubt anyone who doesn't get shown the correct ritual by us is going to get it right. The incorrect ritual would infect them with a variety of nasty diseases.

Cart archers are a desire of mine too, we just don't have the support base for them to be effective in war yet unless we decide to go nomadic.

What wouldn't I give for a goddamned massed combat innovation so our archers can volley...
...Do you think that if we spread the knowledge to everyone they'd all try to do the same megaproject after taking the immense stability and econ hit they are likely all taking?
 
They can claim we are trying to posses them with cow demons to make minotaurs. :???:Actually.....
@Academia Nut
Are we still on maybe mundane maybe magic setting? Cause i want minotaurs.:ogles:
 
I'm totally not back, and I imagine it's caused by a minor conflict with Harmony, which wants us to be good neighbors. And letting thousands die to plague because "My magic! MINE!" doesn't fit well into that.

The mechanical sign is the "small chance to lose stability". A chance at losing stability means we're doing something our people don't like. If the people don't like it at a large enough scale to even risk a stability drop, then it must be because it's conflicting with widely accepted cultural value. I'll concede that it isn't a major problem though, since does have the descriptor "small". But it's still there, proof that this isn't an "ok" thing for our culture, and it's values.

2990
Okay lets see factors for and against giving out the ritual to others(IC edition, OOC edition just says "fuck the DPs):
-Ritual is used to fight a spreading plague by evil spirits.(Harmony) - For
-Ritual may cause plagues when done incorrectly.(Harmony/Hygiene) - Against
-Ritual requires Wrong Action to be ritually done to cows and others may not conduct cow spirit appeasement rituals correctly, or at all(Harmony) - Against
-Ritual is used to help our neighbors (LoO) - For
-Also fuck the DPs(Sacred War) - Against

So the small chance is that our traits says we should help our neighbors and fight disease, but we recognize that this might bring curses down upon more people if improperly done, and language difficulties are real(see for instance, the Metalworker diplomacy incident).

If we decide against, the people won't be very happy, but they'd probably understand.
*Looks at several month to year long land routes.*

I'm pretty sure we're at least as big as Austrailia at this point. More specifically, I'm pretty sure we're next to the not!black sea.
I don't think so. Trade routes are on foot over rough terrain here. Getting anywhere is a pain.
 
...Do you think that if we spread the knowledge to everyone they'd all try to do the same megaproject after taking the immense stability and econ hit they are likely all taking?
No, but they'd be able to mitigate the hit to their ruling and priestly classes by implementing the innoculation on a few dozen to a hundred people rather than going for universal treatment. Every noble must rub sick cowtits.

The only people with the capacity to copy the megaproject is if we taught the DPs directly.
 
Well, not everyone has fully embraced this truth. I've been on the fence ever since AN didn't show us the magic duel between Bynwyn and the Spirit Talkers. Plus, guarenteed stability in exchange for a perishable good. Gotta maximize those returns!

2969 Didn't help when he gave that one an Insightful. I know it proves nothing, but it messes with my mind. And I like it!

First I found the bolded part funny, you are calling a king a perishable good(like milk) and you are correct.

Second I agree with you on the fact magic is still not ruled out by AN. Amusingly if it is real, possibly sending the King to speak with the spirits will work; our diplomat hero might even convince them to ortillery the Death Priests a little.

[X][Sacrifice] Large(-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[X][Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[X][Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X][King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[X][Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
Adhoc vote count started by Chrestomanci on Apr 15, 2017 at 3:08 AM, finished with 371 posts and 58 votes.
 
First I found the bolded part funny, you are calling a king a perishable good(like milk) and you are correct.

Second I agree with you on the fact magic is still not ruled out by AN. Amusingly if it is real, possibly sending the King to speak with the spirits will work; our diplomat hero might even convince them to ortillery the Death Priests a little.

[X][Sacrifice] Large(-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[X][Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[X][Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X][King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[X][Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
...
You do realize that vote has a very real chance of us hitting stability -5, let alone -4, right?
And that due to our harmony trait our civ will break the second it does, not if we don't build it back up by the end of the turn, right?
 
...
You do realize that vote has a very real chance of us hitting stability -5, let alone -4, right?
And that due to our harmony trait our civ will break the second it does, not if we don't build it back up by the end of the turn, right?
[X][Sacrifice] Large(-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[X][Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[X][Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X][King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[X][Refugee] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)

How is this?

Every choice will be dependant on a good roll,
Adhoc vote count started by Chrestomanci on Apr 15, 2017 at 8:41 AM, finished with 460 posts and 69 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Chrestomanci on Apr 16, 2017 at 9:01 AM, finished with 17285 posts and 79 votes.
 
Last edited:
Actually, the big challenges with the Warding Ritual are:
-Maintaining availability of sick cows, i.e. having a large enough pop. of cows.
-Identifying the right kind of sick cows. This takes specialists.
-Transmitting nothing else while you do it. This is not a big problem for cultures with hygiene taboos, but said cultures are also going to take Stability hits to implement this.
This isn't rly an issue when going immediately from oozing cowpox sore to person, and there appears to be no method of achieving single disease transfer in general. The main issues would be transferring diseases among people by reusing needles and from not keeping them and the punctured area clean. Since we have soap, others prolly do too, which fixes the latter. Additionally, they'd be using copper needles. Since we have copper from the MW and the HK have it from elsewhere, prolly every1 can acquire metal tools.
So the only important aspect is not reusing tools immediately and washing the area, which are indeed unlikely to be issues in cultures that practice even minimal hygiene. Not that it's likely to matter on a large scale, though, since sick people would probably be detected and HIV hasn't crossed yet.
 
[X][Sacrifice] Large(-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[X][Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[X][Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X][King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[X][Refugee] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)

How is this?
It works. Unlikely to pass due to the leading vote, but you are correct in it being something that works.

Edit: wait, no, just don't take the harmony option and it will work. While we need restore harmony, it automatically drops us down by one temporarily, so it is way too dangerous in this situation.

That said, the leading vote has a chance of hitting -4 stability for a short amount of time. :cry:

I might as well put in my tactical vote, though it won't change the numbers in the area that needs to be changed.

[X] [Sacrifice] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[X] [Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
[X] [Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X] [King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[X] [Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)

Freaking lack of planing on people's part.
 
Last edited:
[X][Sacrifice] Large(-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[X][Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[X][Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X][King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[X][Refugee] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)

How is this?

Every choice will be dependant on a good roll,
still hits -4
 
[X][Sacrifice] Large(-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[X][Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[X][Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X][King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[X][Refugee] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)

How is this?

Every choice will be dependant on a good roll,
just drop harmony, and you're golden
 
You know, in this instance this would have been the perfect vote to have a mandatory hold on, just so people could analyze the pros and cons of each choice together without being bombarded by votes.
 
[X][Sacrifice] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)

I don't know if i want to sacrifice everything.

[X][Ward] ] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)

Was really on the fence on this or including the DP, but ultimately chose this because it will likely shift many lowland settlements from them and if we start to exert influence in the region they might join us. To those shouting loss of advantage: come share the fire it's warm and you joining it will make it stronger.

[X][King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)

Stability is vital right now, but i don't want to end up like the city state that sacrifice their prince whenever something bad occurs.

[X][Refugee] Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)

Build the fire:)
 
[X] [Sacrifice] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[X] [Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[X] [Ward] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
[X] [King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[X] [Refugee] Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)
 
Last edited:
Every time that has been suggested AN has ignored said suggestion, thus fueling my theory. :V
Huh, it could be AN's way of simulating the holistic shaping of actual cultures, where people often as not went with their gut feeling as to what was "right" or not. By not giving us time to discuss and optimize our options, and instead leaving us to scramble around, throwing out ideas until a couple of them gain enough momentum that everyone else falls in line (interestingly, a couple of times this has actually people bandwagoning against an undesired alternative that had pulled ahead).

If this is intentional, well played Academia Nut!

2991 If it isn't then you're a jerk. A jerk who has apparently lured me into a lotus eater machine because HELP, I CAN'T GET OUT!
 
Huh, it could be AN's way of simulating the holistic shaping of actual cultures, where people often as not went with their gut feeling as to what was "right" or not. By not giving us time to discuss and optimize our options, and instead leaving us to scramble around, throwing out ideas until a couple of them gain enough momentum that everyone else falls in line (interestingly, a couple of times this has actually people bandwagoning against an undesired alternative that had pulled ahead).

If this is intentional, well paid Academia Nut!

If it isn't then you're a jerk. A jerk who has apparently lured me into a lotus eater machine because HELP, I CAN'T GET OUT!
Yes, that is my theory. I formed it when it was asked what would happen if we somehow ended up building a wall in the lowland settlement but not building the lowland settlement. The answer was along the lines of, 'The people got confused in their orders then.'
 
Back
Top