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Paths of Civilization

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pbluekan said:
Still want someone to tell me why we should burn the King. I have many reasons why not to, that I set aside for the sake of not giving away our best secret.
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This has some loose reasoning for why we might want to sac the King. Really loose.

  • More self sacrifice <- This will start leading down some strange paths. I'm honestly not sure what this will lead to. We could become even more of a group of workaholics. It'd be nuts and would lead interesting places. It also might make us reach out a little too much to others. "It is good to work. It is good to give to others so that they may give unto you. We will keeping going and endure."
  • A holy martyr for out religion <- Christianity basically. Which might mean Crusades and Inquisitions at worst. But our Humility, Protective Justice and Land of Opportunity and Shapers of the Land would do interesting things to it. We might get some kind of trait of when the chips are down, the stars are going out and the world seems to be ending some one will step forward to protect and shield the people. Or something really bad. "A Hero King must rise. To be a Shield and care for the tiny motes of his Fire, The People."
 
pbluekan said:
Read it. You still haven't given me any reason why you're picking 'meet the spirits.' I've seen a lot of reasons why it might be some sort of natural progression with our culture, but no reasons why that is a good idea. And it's in the narrative (citations, really?). They only ask people to give them one or two a year instead of putting whole areas to the 'sword' like they used to.
Here's the earliest reference. It takes a lot of sacrifices to do either of these. Like thousands of people or more. In this day and age, a village is maybe a thousand or so at best.
Here we see the first stages of them starting to back off. They aren't raiding villages anymore. They are also forcing people to bend the knee.
Literally stated: They are learning moderation.
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I did list the reasons, but it was not commented on. And your post about "Even the Dead Priests have had to back off from their sacrifices." Gave impression of DP dropping sacrifice as cultural practice.

Sacrifice King:
  • He floated the idea willingly, getting face time with spirits will help reduce panic
  • Might allow disgraced people to clean their name via more direct method. Half exiles are already sacrificing their life for pox mega project, so precedent exists.
  • High ranking member for the civ are expected to act during crisis, not sitting around thinking without action.
  • Even the king can give up their life for the people, good impact to tie death in glory and humility traits together.
  • More myth factor in our civ, stories and legends goes long way to cement our history.
 
pbluekan said:
Still want someone to tell me why we should burn the King. I have many reasons why not to, that I set aside for the sake of not giving away our best secret.
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Big fat Mysticism bonus and expansion of our ancestral pantheon, as Tytheumsomethingcus becomes the ambassador to the Sky Spirits, re-opening up the possibility of studying the skies and stars, that had previously gone up in smoke with the ST, which puts us on the fast track towards astrology, and therefore better boat navigation, and all such knock off effects?

2980
 
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Sightsear said:
Big fat Mysticism bonus and expansion of our ancestral pantheon, as Tytheumsomethingcus because the ambassador to the Sky Spirits, re-opening up the possibilty of studying the skies and stars, that had previously gone up in smoke with the ST, which puts us on the fast track towards astrology, and therefore better boat navigation, and all such knock off effects?
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These are even better reasons than what I gave, since they are probable solid mechanical results.
 
pbluekan said:
Why?

There is no point. You're like a GOP congressman in the US. Flipflopping your opinions from issue to issue. Back when we first took in the nomads you were all for conservative play.
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No, actually my views have always been consistent: don't take risks for stuff you don't need, but don't hesitate when you mihgt get something you do.

And here's the thing. We got the LoO chain started by being generous when we had little to nothing-by being generous in poverty. This time, we can evolve the trait by being generous when we hold all the cards-generosity in power. And this is incredibly important. We want our people, more specifically our burgeoning rulers, to be the kind of people that look at someone and say, "He needs help, let's help him." We want that even, especially, when there is no chance of the person being able to pay them back, or to help them at all.

More, this is a narrative thing to me. This seems like an opportunity to set our ideals against the DP's. To look at someone that brings nothing but death and give life instead. To pit our charity against their selfishness. This is more than a war of wood and stone, this is a war of ideals. And I intend for charity to rule our little portion of the world, even in the face of the worst that humanity has to offer. Because that is when charity is at it's strongest; when it has no reason to exist and no right to be expected.

Do we not destroy our enemies when we make them our friends?
 
Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 667 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4
Task: Harmony
[x] [Harmony]Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
No. of Votes: 18
[X][Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
No. of Votes: 13
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: King
[x] [King]Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
No. of Votes: 18
[X] [King] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
No. of Votes: 12
[X][King] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
No. of Votes: 4
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Refugee
[X] [Refugee] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)
No. of Votes: 11
[x] [Refugee]Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)
No. of Votes: 10
[X][Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
No. of Votes: 6
[X][Refugee] The People must offer aid (-4 Stability, +8-11 Econ, probable overcrowding issues, ???)
No. of Votes: 4
[X] [Refugee] All who need aid must receive it (-5 Stability, +11-15 Econ, overcrowding issues, ???)
No. of Votes: 1
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Sacrifice
[x] [Sacrifice]Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
No. of Votes: 18
[X] [Sacrifice] Medium (-2 Econ, ???)
No. of Votes: 9
[X] [Sacrifice] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
No. of Votes: 5
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Ward
[X] [Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
No. of Votes: 16
[x] [Ward]] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
No. of Votes: 13
[X][Ward] Everyone, even the Dead Priests! (Shares far and wide for -1 Diplomacy, +1 Stability, ???)
No. of Votes: 4
[X] [Ward] It should be shared with friendly tribes (Shares with a few groups)
No. of Votes: 2
Total No. of Voters: 35
 
Sightsear said:
re-opening up the possibilty of studying the skies and stars, that had previously gone up in smoke with the ST, which puts us on the fast track towards astrology,
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Ah, yes, Astrology. the astrology that did precisely dick for the Spirit Talkers? The one that they kept sinking study attempts into and worked themselves into a hole they couldnt climb out of. That astrology?
 
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DocMatoi said:
Ah, yes, the astrology that did precisely dick for the Spirit Talkers?
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The Spirit Talkers didn't have boats. Also, they zapped Nomads with lightening bolts, and probably knew about the previous comet BEFORE it showed up.

If we and the TN hadn't shown up, they were on track to vassalizing a couple of Nomad tribes. VASSALIZING NOMADS.

2981 If I've taken anything from previous discussions, it's "FRICKIN NOMADS, MAN!"
 
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Hangwind said:
No, actually my views have always been consistent: don't take risks for stuff you don't need, but don't hesitate when you mihgt get something you do.

And here's the thing. We got the LoO chain started by being generous when we had little to nothing-by being generous in poverty. This time, we can evolve the trait by being generous when we hold all the cards-generosity in power. And this is incredibly important. We want our people, more specifically our burgeoning rulers, to be the kind of people that look at someone and say, "He needs help, let's help him." We want that even, especially, when there is no chance of the person being able to pay them back, or to help them at all.

More, this is a narrative thing to me. This seems like an opportunity to set our ideals against the DP's. To look at someone that brings nothing but death and give life instead. To pit our charity against their selfishness. This is more than a war of wood and stone, this is a war of ideals. And I intend for charity to rule our little portion of the world, even in the face of the worst that humanity has to offer. Because that is when charity is at it's strongest; when it has no reason to exist and no right to be expected.

Do we not destroy our enemies when we make them our friends?
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Unlikely to affect them since they don't seem to have much opinion either way about the narrative but I like the reasoning here. Bravo!
 
DocMatoi said:
Ah, yes, Astrology. the astrology that did precisely dick for the Spirit Talkers? The one that they kept sinking study attempts into and worked themselves into a hole they couldnt climb out of. That astrology?
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Also, the reason astrology did dick all was precisely because they did exclusively astrology from the sounds of it. We can do other actions you know
 
I should also mention that having dedicated shamans observe the sky can greatly reduce panic if they predicted or forecasted any star/weather events.
 
tryrar said:
My Plan:

-1 +2 immediate +1 chance +-1-2(average ~1)-1 chance-3=~-1 as well, but with a chance for zero
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your proposed plan was
-1 +2 (immediate: King + Sacrifice) - 3 (Refugees) -1 (small chance; Ward) + 1 (normal chance; Sacrifice) -1 + (1d4 -1), average 1 = -1, semi-acceptable chance of getting a 0.

Risks settling on -2 and having the initial stab decrease of RH be in an awkward place.

Hangwind said:
No, actually my views have always been consistent: don't take risks for stuff you don't need, but don't hesitate when you mihgt get something you do.

And here's the thing. We got the LoO chain started by being generous when we had little to nothing-by being generous in poverty. This time, we can evolve the trait by being generous when we hold all the cards-generosity in power. And this is incredibly important. We want our people, more specifically our burgeoning rulers, to be the kind of people that look at someone and say, "He needs help, let's help him." We want that even, especially, when there is no chance of the person being able to pay them back, or to help them at all.

More, this is a narrative thing to me. This seems like an opportunity to set our ideals against the DP's. To look at someone that brings nothing but death and give life instead. To pit our charity against their selfishness. This is more than a war of wood and stone, this is a war of ideals. And I intend for charity to rule our little portion of the world, even in the face of the worst that humanity has to offer. Because that is when charity is at it's strongest; when it has no reason to exist and no right to be expected.

Do we not destroy our enemies when we make them our friends?
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Generosity is nice, but distributing the scourge ward is unlikely to actually lead to people becoming our friends. Also, I just really want the DP dead, and giving out a scourge ward is a good way to have that not occur.

I agree that it's a battle of ideals, though, and would probably be amenable to giving it out to friendly tribes. Though even more preferable than that would be convincing those tribes to let us build a temple in their cities and providing immunization to them there.
 
pbluekan said:
Still want someone to tell me why we should burn the King. I have many reasons why not to, that I set aside for the sake of not giving away our best secret.
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Partly solely because I want the votes, but mostly because AN has said it may not become a thing even if we do it, just that it could if we do it wrong.


KING SACRIFICED/WARD HELD PRIVATELY: In total, there are 6 potential (SAFE) combinations with these two as standard picks.
Medium, Large, and Everything Sacrifices
Yes and No Restore Harmony
Refugee picks are mostly non-factors

Medium/Yes: The people do not sacrifice too much of theirs to appease the spirits, the sacrifice is taken primarily from the King himself, following a potentially disastrous RH action. This has potential to be really, really bad.
Medium/No: The people sacrifice less than the king, but RH isn't taken and opinion isn't soured by his heavyhandedness. Could be seen as inherent value/bargaining the spirits using more valuable people/goods, promoting future sacrifices of human life in times of crisis.
Large/Yes: The people sacrifice quite a bit and the king goes to bargain with the spirits in addition to that. RH could foster some upset in views looking back on the sacrifice, but if it goes well and the crisis is weathered, could be viewed as the King using his silver tongue to convince the spirits using the large food sacrifices, getting them to stop for something that would otherwise not be enough.
Large/No: Same as Large/Yes, but without potential point of failure in RH upset.
Everything/Yes: Sacrifice all of our surplus to live in subsistence for a time, appeasing the spirits and sending our king along with this grand offering to make it look better. RH could cause some serious issues, as always.
Everything/No: Same as above, without the risk of RH.

If I had to guess, a Medium appeasement would promote sacrifice of life over goods in hard times, in order to get the spirits to see our way. A Large appeasement is liable to have the least issues; as the King was only sacrificed to convince the spirits to accept the offering. An Everything appeasement has some potential to lean us towards the God-King style of leadership, which I am especially opposed to even if it could grant stability on-death for leaders (at the cost of economy, most likely!).

[X] [Sacrifice] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
[X] [Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X] [King] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
[X] [Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)

END RESULT STABILITY (Safety Check): Base 0, Potential to reach -3 (short term, no collapse risk), end of turn value -2 to 0 (-1 likely).

I'll go with this.
 
Sightsear said:
Tytheum
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his new name.

I support adding him to the pantheon and tbh I'd be perfectly fine w/ sacrificing people in fires. I just don't want a weird administrative switchover in the middle of a chaotic period, and I don't want there to be a risk of people being all a) Kings are chosen by the heavens, b) "the Kings must be burned to leave this earth!!" which means we burn our kings when tired of them, c) ppl to just habitually kill themselves at the first sign of atmospheric turbulence.
 
yeah, I can compromise with that

[X] [Sacrifice] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
[X] [Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X] [King] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
[X] [Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
 
[X] [Sacrifice] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
[X] [Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X] [King] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
[X] [Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
 
[X] [King] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
[X] [Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
[X] [Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
[x] [Sacrifice]Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[X] [Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)

It'd be nice to get our econ above 6 so the chiefs could start taking more expensive actions on their own, but I suppose it just doesn't work out that way this time around. With the severity of the plague we might end up seeing further collapses, though, so maybe next turn!
 
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[X] [Sacrifice] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
[X] [Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X] [King] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
[X] [Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
 
Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 667 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4
Task: Harmony
[x] [Harmony]Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
No. of Votes: 17
[X][Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
No. of Votes: 16
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: King
[X] [King] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
No. of Votes: 18
[x] [King]Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
No. of Votes: 14
[X][King] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
No. of Votes: 4
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Refugee
[X][Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
No. of Votes: 11
[x] [Refugee]Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)
No. of Votes: 9
[X] [Refugee] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)
No. of Votes: 9
[X][Refugee] The People must offer aid (-4 Stability, +8-11 Econ, probable overcrowding issues, ???)
No. of Votes: 4
[X] [Refugee] All who need aid must receive it (-5 Stability, +11-15 Econ, overcrowding issues, ???)
No. of Votes: 1
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Sacrifice
[x] [Sacrifice]Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
No. of Votes: 16
[X] [Sacrifice] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
No. of Votes: 12
[X] [Sacrifice] Medium (-2 Econ, ???)
No. of Votes: 6
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Ward
[X] [Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
No. of Votes: 18
[x] [Ward]] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
No. of Votes: 13
[X][Ward] Everyone, even the Dead Priests! (Shares far and wide for -1 Diplomacy, +1 Stability, ???)
No. of Votes: 4
[X] [Ward] It should be shared with friendly tribes (Shares with a few groups)
No. of Votes: 2
Total No. of Voters: 37
 
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