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Paths of Civilization

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TotallyNotEvil said:
We don't need to conquer them to make them irrelevant.

Booting the DPs and Nomads back twenty turns works just as well.

While everyone else built settlements, we were farming.

While everyone else made new people, we were farming.

While everyone else trained new soldiers, we were farming.

While everyone else developed new tactics, we were farming.

While everyone else developed more technology, we were farming.

We got very, very, very good at farming. The whole society is built on the principle of ensuring there is enough food to last for years of drought, a massive invasion, or any other crisis of such magnitude. We made ourselves self-sufficient, ensured we would be able to turtle up as to keep farming if shit went down.

Now, everyone is getting fucked, but we finally get to use our supreme green powers to ride it out in perfect form.

Don't piss away the single biggest opportunity we've had to date. Our enemies were getting so smart, so strong, so entrenched, we would not be able to remove them. We don't have the strenght to do so decisively, to not risk a massive reversal, to not risk all of the others fuckwits surrounding us to fall on our undefended home.

Look at the Dead Priests. They are building up like the damn Roman Empire, they are building a sustainable slave-based community, essentially keeping all the strenghts and none of the inherent weaknesses.

The Nomads are of sufficient size that, as they are, we can at best nible away and keep them disorganized. If they form up, they could roll over us.

Hell, HK itself isn't exactly super friendly, they simply got the DPs on their doorstep. Note how our caravans aren't any safer throught their territory than the DP's.

Both of the huge, super-militant groups expanded enough to reach our doorstep.

This comet? Is our big break.

We are surrounded by enemies. Let them die, carry on and keep farming.

We can them utterly crush them as centralized powers, if they don't die on their own. See if we can find glorious metal in the lowlands, get the best of the fertile lands under our controls, loot valuables, including DP's tech, loot horses and chariots from the nomads, the list goes on and on.

[X] Powerofmind
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Funnily enough we actually have Copper ore at Blue Stone right near our home. We can Uber-Turtle.
 
I am really, really, really puzzled over why anyone would even consider sharing the immunization tech at this point.

It's kind of like you just won the lottery and you walk up to a roulette table and yell 'put it all and my life savings on 19'. We've already gotten enormously lucky, now people want to take a huge risk with a low chance to pay out and a good chance to ruin us.

VoidZero said:
Can you note the part about willing people? It's about the same as glory in death. What is the logical drawback from this hypothetical cultural practice?
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The problem is most human sacrifice traditions do start as willing, up until someone is being eyed up for sacrifice and doesn't want to die. At that point saying 'Hey, maybe if we sacrifice the chief of the nomad tribe the spirits will be just as happy, he's a cool dude too. Or, mathematically speaking, ten our best warriors probably equals one king, and I'm sadly needed on earth now'.

Or alternatively, the priests are about to get lynched and they decide mostly willing sacrifice is good enough.
 
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VoidZero said:
Can you note the part about willing people? It's about the same as glory in death. What is the logical drawback from this hypothetical cultural practice?
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Don't bother. It doesn't matter than he came up with the idea, and is willing, any human sacrifice in any way shape or form is a no go for them, even if it makes sense for this age.
 
[X][Sacrifice] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[X][Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
[X][Ward] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
[X][King] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
[X][Refugee] Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)
 
@Academia Nut Will sacrificing "Large" and "Everything!" mean that we burn our houses, our tools, blankets, cows, grain, etc.? Or does it just mean sacrificing everything we don't *need*?

VoidZero said:
Can you note the part about willing people? It's about the same as glory in death. What is the logical drawback from this hypothetical cultural practice?
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It sets up an expectation that our king must sacrifice himself for the people, and if he doesn't he's not a good King. It also means that right in the middle of all of this chaos we have a rando average King who isn't yet used to all the trouble taking the seat. Sure, we'll gain immediate stability and legitimacy, but we lose a chance for someone to negotiate all of this chaos and stabilize and unify our country in the midst of it.
 
[X][Sacrifice]Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[X][Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[X][Ward] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
[X][King] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
[X][Refugee] The People must offer aid (-4 Stability, +8-11 Econ, probable overcrowding issues, ???)
Sightsear said:
2977 Eh, long odds anyway. Also, mildly annoyed by the voting mechanics change, because I have no idea who's gotten back to revote yet. Ah well, they'll probably notice.
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Just use the vote tally function and set it to tally from the last two thread marks every vote in the wrong format is one poster that has not returned.
 
tryrar said:
Except spending two entire turns on doing stability options is...less than ideal shall we say. I'd not vote for it.
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Assuming the Many May Enter block pulls a win, there's an 8% chance of ending up at -3 stability, and a 24% chance of ending up at -2 anyway. The bulk of it falls on -1, which is just 1 stability higher than his assumed end-value of -2.

Granted, his particular path includes a higher chance of accidentally dipping into -4 and collapsing (a bit over 8% combining all potential chances, 1 in 12). So, @Umi-san, you might want to consider pushing down a step to the -1 and chance of -1 refugee action, which is as low as 1% to collapse (requires both stability reducing events to occur first and both succeed).
 
tryrar said:
Don't bother. It doesn't matter than he came up with the idea, and is willing, any human sacrifice in any way shape or form is a no go for them, even if it makes sense for this age.
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Even if my argument is about as useful as bucket of water in forest fire i will try anyway.

Our half exiles already sacrifice their life for the pox mega project, so people dying for sake of their spirit/name are very much in character and regular cultural practice.

In this case, even the king can sacrifice them-self is a plus; no one is above the people.
 
tryrar said:
Don't bother. It doesn't matter than he came up with the idea, and is willing, any human sacrifice in any way shape or form is a no go for them, even if it makes sense for this age.
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@VoidZero
Sure, it's a no go. It's possibly one of the most disruptive practices in any society. Even the Dead Priests have had to back off from their sacrifices. Why should we do it? None of you have given any reason other than "he's willing." You're telling me that we won't consider any other ideas, but you haven't presented them.
 
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Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 667 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4
Task: Harmony
[16][Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[11][Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: King
[16][King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[10][King] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
[3][King] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Refugee
[9][Refugee] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)
[8][Refugee] Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)
[6][Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
[3][Refugee] The People must offer aid (-4 Stability, +8-11 Econ, probable overcrowding issues, ???)
[1][Refugee] All who need aid must receive it (-5 Stability, +11-15 Econ, overcrowding issues, ???)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Sacrifice
[14][Sacrifice] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[7][Sacrifice] Medium (-2 Econ, ???)
[6][Sacrifice] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Ward
[12][Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[11][Ward] ] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
[5][Ward] Everyone, even the Dead Priests! (Shares far and wide for -1 Diplomacy, +1 Stability, ???)
[2][Ward] It should be shared with friendly tribes (Shares with a few groups)
Total No. of Voters: 30
 
Even willing self sacrifice of the "I'm going to set my self on fire" is stupid and counter productive and just like any other form of suicide should be discouraged rather than encouraged.
 
I'm actually fine with this vote, mostly, but I'm just annoying it's trending we gain less econ than we lose. We can at least afford the -3 stab for refugees
 
pbluekan said:
@VoidZero
Sure, it's a no go. It's possibly one of the most disruptive practices in any society. Even the Dead Priests have had to back off from their sacrifices. Why should we do it. None of you have given any reason other than "he's willing."
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Blackbird'd your post, here. Read that, and citation needed for DP sacrifices.
 
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Honestly with our additional actions from provinces I'm less concerned about econ and more about stability and not pissing our advantages away.
 
I think people are too focused on the chance of getting a "Burn the leader in times of peril" trait.

Other things that might come out of this would be.
  • Mandate of Heaven
  • Divine Right to Rule
  • More self sacrifice
  • A holy martyr for our religion
  • ect
We were told that the ??? results on the kindling would depend on the other actions we take. So going "hurr, human sacrifice bad" as a general argument is a bit silly.
 
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Hmmmm.

We started out before this sudden event as a Tolkien-esque mix of Dwarves and Elves.

I'm looking at the trends here and it seems like we are heading for the Dwarves side of things. Honestly speaking I'm okay with this, they were some pretty cool guys. And we have plenty of time to turn into something awesome in the Sci-fi Stage when we get that far.

Dutch said:
I think people are too focused on the chance of getting a "Burn the leader in times of peril" trait.

Other things that might come out of this would be.
  • Mandate of Heaven
  • Divine Right to Rule
  • More self sacrifice
  • A holy martyr for out religion
  • ect
We were told that the ??? results on the kindling would depend on the other actions we take. So going "hurr, human sacrifice bad" as a general argument is a bit silly.
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Also this person knows what they're on about. Think about what they just said.

*munches popcorn*
 
[X][Sacrifice] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[X][Ward] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
[X][King] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
[X][Refugee] Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)

With the Spirit Talkers now gone, we are the spiritual authorities now. Sharing the Scourge Ward would provide massive benefits there , especially with the bonus of speaking to the Thunder Horse clan about their Star Axe - if we play our cards right even if we don't keep the axe maybe we can get them to acknowledge our sacred knowledge like the STs hoped.
 
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tryrar said:
Issue is 2 econ sharply limits what we can do next turn. We might not be able to study rocks, for example, which shoves back metalworking even further.
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We do have imported copper listed in the tech section. But yeah local sources would be on much bigger scale and cheaper.
 
[X][Sacrifice] Large(-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[X][Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[X][Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X][King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[X][Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
 
BlueFlamingWings said:
[X][Sacrifice] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[X][Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
[X][Ward] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
[X][King] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
[X][Refugee] Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)

With the Spirit Talkers now gone, we are the spiritual authorities now. Sharing the Scourge Ward would provide massive benefits there , especially with the bonus of speaking to the Thunder Horse clan about their Star Axe - if we play our cards right even if we don't keep the axe maybe we can get them to acknowledge our sacred knowledge like the STs hoped.
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umm, blue, the only other stab gain in your plan is warding, and if that doesn't work or is after refugees we're at -3 stab for the turn. Please rethink
 
I also think sacrificing EVERYTHING! is panicking a bit especially if people are picking the -2 stability refugees.
 
Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 667 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4
Task: Harmony
[18][Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[11][Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: King
[17][King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[11][King] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
[4][King] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Refugee
[9][Refugee] Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)
[9][Refugee] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)
[7][Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
[4][Refugee] The People must offer aid (-4 Stability, +8-11 Econ, probable overcrowding issues, ???)
[1][Refugee] All who need aid must receive it (-5 Stability, +11-15 Econ, overcrowding issues, ???)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Sacrifice
[16][Sacrifice] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[7][Sacrifice] Medium (-2 Econ, ???)
[7][Sacrifice] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Ward
[14][Ward] ] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
[13][Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[4][Ward] Everyone, even the Dead Priests! (Shares far and wide for -1 Diplomacy, +1 Stability, ???)
[2][Ward] It should be shared with friendly tribes (Shares with a few groups)
Total No. of Voters: 33
 
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