...I think not treating Madoka like she's made of fine porcelain does not equate to "treating her like some kind of hyper-macho businessman with testosterone spouting out the pores on her bald spot" @Vebyast . You might be exaggerating a tad bit, please don't do that.

Maybe a possible compromise:
[] Ask if anyone has questions dor Bennouna? You want to talk to Madoka in private for a bit about some ideas in resettling the meguca refugees.

...or some other excuse that doesn't point out to her shock or something.
 
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Also, does anyone find it really messed up that there's a reoccurring idea of basically just assigning Madoka as the eventual "meguca therapist"? She's 14. She is in no ways qualified to actually help Magical Girls with their mental and emotional problems, nor is she even obligated to fulfill that role.
Agreed. Being a supportive friend is one thing. Being a trained psychologist is something else. "Amateur therapist" are two words that don't belong together, and probably won't end well. We can hire an actual trained professional to do that, rather than forcing that task on a teenager.
 
Waiting a few minutes for an opportune moment to talk is equivalent to completely withdrawing our support now?
When she's feeling bad right now? Yes, it is. Without interruption, the bad thoughts go around and around in circles and build justifications and supporting evidence and entrench themselves. Give this feeling a couple minutes and our job changes from "divert momentary bad thought" to "change her mind". There's a reason that my opening argument, way back at the beginning of this debate, was that we don't want to give her time to think.
Just gonna point this out, Madoka's not made of glass. She's not going to break from a few bad stuff happening and a few truths. She's the person who took entire truth of the Magical Girl system, actually thought out a wish that would fix all of the problems, and then took the plunge. She might be a person who feels very strongly with her emotions, but she's also a very strong person. She only really contracts in the case that she either doesn't know everything, or believes that the situation will only get worse if she doesn't do anything.

Also, does anyone find it really messed up that there's a reoccurring idea of basically just assigning Madoka as the eventual "meguca therapist"? She's 14. She is in no ways qualified to actually help Magical Girls with their problems, nor is she even obligated to fulfill that role. She'll attempt to do it if Sabrina and Mami asks it of her because of her "I want to help" complex, but that doesn't mean it's actually what she wants to do. If she wanted to do it, she probably would have brought it up to Sabrina as she learned (and continues to learn) more of the truth of the Magical Girl system.
Yes. If we don't give her something to do, she'll sit there, carefully think through what she knows, and then calmly and bravely make a wish. I agree that she's not exactly a qualified therapist, but she's still better at it than anybody else and it's the best thing she can do, and she badly needs a Purpose. I agree that I'd like to hire a trained, skilled psychiatrist, but even then we'll want people that're dedicated to just making sure that everybody feels included and talking to people and doing stuff like the picnic and the sleepover. Team spirit is a big deal when your people literally die if they get too sad.
...I think not treating Madoka like she's made of fine porcelain does not equate to "treating her like some kind of hyper-macho businessman with testosterone spouting out the pores on her bald spot" @Verbyast . You might be exaggerating a tad bit, please don't do that.
Maybe, but not much. Narrator and company have been trying to treat this like a business meeting, complete with trying to hire Bennouna as an employee, since the beginning. Which I think is a terrible idea, not least because Bennouna isn't treating this like a corporate board meeting. She's friends with Mami, we've been sharing our idealistic plans for the future with her and asking her to spread the word, judging by her careful "I'm not telling you about $target and $target and $target" she's with us because we're good people and she wants us to succeed because she's good people too. Backing off to a formal businesslike setting would be downright insulting in addition to being inappropriate. Treating Madoka like she's a corporate executive that cares about saving face in front of business partners is an extension of that.
 
When she's feeling bad right now? Yes, it is. Without interruption, the bad thoughts go around and around in circles and build justifications and supporting evidence and entrench themselves. Give this feeling a couple minutes and our job changes from "divert momentary bad thought" to "change her mind".
It's never been implied that Madoka is clinically depressed or prone to such self-destructive spirals. You give her too little credit.

Madoka saw a girl decapitated and torn apart right in front of her. She didn't break.

Madoka learned the witchbomb and lost her best friend at the same time. She didn't break.

Madoka took Kyubey's speech about how every magical girl was doomed from the beginning and humans were nothing but cattle to them. She didn't break.

Madoka can handle five minutes with the knowledge that someone she's never even met has died without breaking.
 
come to think of it, we should ask Nadia how MGs make money, and if she has any ideas on that front--particularly with regards to MGs whom have no need to worry about grief costs.

This is important but I don't think it's actually something we need to ask about. Chances are good the answer is mostly that they don't, legitimately, and the few who DO have jobs and hunt arent people we really need to worry about since they're at least nice enough to hold a job and be a guca.

So here are some thoughts on a screening process for 'new residents'.

Magical Girls wishing to immigrate and live under Sabrina's promise of keeping their soul gems cleansed have to agree to the following:
  1. Full disclosure of their powers and any ongoing wish effects, though they need not talk about the circumstances of their wish if they don't want to.
  2. Full disclosure of their histories as magical girls. That is, people they have been on a team with, people they have fought with... people they have killed. This is Confession time. All will be forgiven and the slate can be wiped clean, but only if they confess now. We don't want to be caught off guard by an unsuspected grudge.
  3. A one-on-one interview with Sabrina or someone she designates to carefully ascertain their Lich-Bomb/Witch-Bomb status and warn them about memetic exposure to girls not cleared.
  4. Agreement that Mami is boss and will be the final word on any magical girl disputes. (Though I suspect many will conclude that Sabrina is the real power, given that Sabrina is the source of cleansing and that Mami obviously dotes on her.)
  5. An understanding that those with useful non-combat wish magic may be called upon to pitch in as needed to help build lives for everyone.
In return they get:
  1. Sabrina will clease their soul gems regularly. (Until clear gems are proven safe, they should not be an explicit part of the deal.)
  2. Prior crimes, up to and including murder can be forgiven under a general amnesty. (A show of remorse is expected if there are any victims also in residence.)
  3. They will be aided to set up new lives.

Because the first immigrants are the desperate they will agree to this, and later immigrants will be under pressure to agree because everyone else already did.

Too rigid, and too time-consuming to implement. We don't have a beauracracy yet Brief, and we likely won't in quest. Cleansing for free, housing and needs for free, more for assistance.

We'll be swarmed with megucas soon. We have the Asunaro matter to deal with. We have Oriko who's still fatalistic. We have our friends and Mami who need us. We have a lot on our plate. Is that not challenging enough?

I am thoroughly against the degree of entanglement that is being tossed around atm. It's one thing if we end up with a teleporter and can point-to-point people in 5 minutes a group. If it takes even a thirty minute trip per group for us, though, we're looking at an hour out of town per group. I'm not enthusiastic about that with the situation as volatile as it is, not for the results we're thinking about, and make no mistake, as long as Madoka has godlike potential, Mami has emotional weakpoints, Sayaka is untrained, and Oriko is "unhealthy", the situation is not stable.

Just make the damn offer to buy plane tickets for them. Let them do the travelling on their own time; as long as we give them the cost of travel they can probably make it. I mean, if you have the seeds to be alive, you can stop magicking for a week to hop a plane to Sabrina if you're given the money for it.

I personally still want to talk with Nadia about helping meguca who need transport in order to make it here, but nobody seems to care.

Above.

So, why aren't we just telling her we can be anywhere on Earth in three hours, and if she knows anyone who needs immediate evac we can probably arrange something?


Um, this seems really unprofessional. Why are we doing this? Is Madoka going to Wish in the next ten minutes?

Asking to be excused to speak to someone is not unprofessional and I don't know why you thought to suggest it was. I'm glad you've dropped that.

You know, @Onmur, if you Discord guys really feel that Madoka needs to be coddled this much, that we need to act this unprofessional in front of Nadia because she can't possibly be allowed to hear something a little disturbing and sit on it for ten minutes without us pulling her aside and condescending to her, how on Earth do you all expect her to become Madoka Kaname: Meguca Therapist?

I can guarantee there's going to be a lot worse tales of woe in her future than "OMG people can actually die fighting Witches!" if we go that route; are you going to eavesdrop on her constantly and pull her aside in timestop every time she hears something upsetting?

Considering all the moments in the anime where she gets like this and then there's a damn scene where a contract is averted, I think we damn well will pull her aside and hear her out and reassure her when she gets like this, yes.

IMO, we can talk privately and make any assurances we need to make with Madoka after our meeting with Nadia.

[X] The Narrator

Since the vote gives the others (most importantly Sayaka) a chance to ask their own questions.

I'm of nearly a mind to agree with you. It depends on how long this goes on for. When we're done here we'll be more free to do a better job of reassuring her, is the fact of the matter. On the other hand, stewing on it isn't great for her. Timestop would be ideal but it would seem like an aggressive move on Homura's part unless we coordinated it properly with her -- she'd need to excuse herself, timestop, come back, talk with us in timestop, leave, and return.

... *looks back at post*

Said look simply washes off Homura, the time traveller blinking slowly at the other girl. Madoka, by contrast, simply looks horrified, her mouth open in a perfect little 'o' of horror.

... No, I appear to have been mistaken. This... this needs to be addressed immediately. The hell? "Horror" is used twice in a single sentence.

I hate having to repeat myself, but I guess I have to: I'm not concerned with looking professional at this point. I'm concerned with embarrassing Madoka in front of company and making her feel condescended to by treating her like she needs immediate coddling every time she hears something sad.

Excusing yourself is kind about doing things not in front of others, addressing legitimate concerns is not being condescending unless you do it in a stupid, stupid manner.

X] Ask how she's feeling, whether she wants to talk, reassure her if necessary; her reaction was the most normal out of anybody at the table, and that normalcy is something we, and every Magical Girl sorely need. We got the people saving under control; it's helping those people through their issues that we need... well, help with.

Onmur? This is not how you want to do this. It's too forward, too Sabrina. This isn't where you want to press on the "stay normal" button, this is where you want to listen to her concerns and reassure her. Get her from horror down to ok before you start pushing the stay normal button.

And... Huh, you know what, this is... Urgh. Well, I see I've missed things.

... I think it would be worth seriously considering telepathying Homura with "timestop, don't be aggressive-seeming about it" and talking with her and Madoka in private. I... Well, it's just a thought. She seems comfortable around Homura.

Madoka can handle five minutes with the knowledge that someone she's never even met has died without breaking.

Madoka, by contrast, simply looks horrified, her mouth open in a perfect little 'o' of horror.

It's not one thing, Narrator. It's this, the revelation of Walpurgisnacht, etcetera, etcetera. All at once. It's adding up, and it's not happening gradually.
 
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Madoka committed suicide for the greater good and managed to fuck it up anyway because she was so focused on martyring herself that she forgot to consider her friends. She broke, hard, in exactly the same way that she's going to break if we keep trying to treat her like she needs to be strong. She'll be strong, all right, and she'll stay strong right through to ending the world.
... I think it would be worth seriously considering telepathying Homura with "timestop, don't be aggressive-seeming about it" and talking with her and Madoka in private. I... Well, it's just a thought. She seems comfortable around Homura.
I'd be 100% behind this.
 
Onmur? This is not how you want to do this. It's too forward, too Sabrina. This isn't where you want to press on the "stay normal" button, this is where you want to listen to her concerns and reassure her. Get her from horror down to ok before you start pushing the stay normal button.
I tried to phrase it as a conditional. "Reassure her if necessary." Everything that follows has to do with how to try and reassure her before we know Madoka's answer.

Anybody's got better phrasing ideas? I'm all ears.
 
Yes. If we don't give her something to do, she'll sit there, carefully think through what she knows, and then calmly and bravely make a wish.
Not really. Now that she knows some of the dangers of being a Magical Girl, she won't make a wish until things get really bad. The only times where she's ready to make a contract in the show after Mami dies is A.) When Kyouko and Sayaka are fighting and the former looks like she's going to kill the latter, B.) When Sayaka is self-destructing and Madoka knows that if Sayaka isn't stopped, she'll die, and C.) When Walpurgisnacht is destroying the city and will likely kill everyone. Oh, and Homura getting beat too I guess.

Part of the reason Sayaka yelled at Madoka after the former became a Magical Girl in the show is because she's not contracting. Madoka knows when it's okay to contract and when it's okay not to contract given she has proper information. She's definitely the type to contract, but only when there's a really good reason to contract.
 
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Can I suggest something like this?

[] Telepathy with Mami: We need to talk with Homura and Madoka in timestop. Can she run interference for a bit?
-[] Verbally: Ask Mami and Sayaka if they have any questions for Bennouna, as you'll need to talk with Madoka and Homura in private for a few minutes

The aim for this is to:
  • Give whatever reassurance and/or hugs Madoka might need
  • Keep Homura's timestop power under wraps. I think Nadia's SoD is being strained with an actual Grief Manipulator and a legit Precog being in the same city. It's gonna snap in two if we add Timestop to that equation. Also Infosec on Homu's power too on other meguca Nadia'll meet after Mitakihara.
  • Gives Sayaka the opportunity to ask her own questions about meguca life
  • Doesn't leave Nadia hanging and keeps the conversation with out group going, while we talk in private with Madoka.
 
I'd say she's pretty upset.



@AuraTwilight ?

Yea, so uh, this bullshit about "Asians feel insulted when you break professionalism to be emotionally sympathetic and caring" is absolute bullshit, especially for women who are expected to act like this. Holy hell.

Madoka is freaking the fuck out and it's not happening gradually. She's been hit with shit after shit after shit since last night and she's very good about masking her emotions to keep from making public displays it's what her official character song is about you guys.

And also when it comes to Madoka there's literally no such thing as 'too careful'. Especially since we actually DO take care of her friends in front of her. If she notices we're acting 'condescending' the take-away is "This is how Sabrina is, especially with Mami, meaning its proportional to how much she likes you."

And like Veb said, Nadia either has to be on board with this sort of behavior or she can suck a railroad pike. I'm of the mind she actually DOES sympathize with this camp based on how she's been behaving, and frankly if we act like a stock Mahou Shoujo, that only lends credence to our claims of Legit No Bullshit Grief Cleansing Forever. Normal Magical Girls DIE if they act like Sabrina.

[x] Onmur
 
This is important but I don't think it's actually something we need to ask about. Chances are good the answer is mostly that they don't, legitimately, and the few who DO have jobs and hunt arent people we really need to worry about since they're at least nice enough to hold a job and be a guca.
Doesn't matter. If there are methods MGs who have been around for a while have for making money in a sustained way (legal or not), we need to know about it. Because...see below.

Too rigid, and too time-consuming to implement. We don't have a beauracracy yet Brief, and we likely won't in quest. Cleansing for free, housing and needs for free, more for assistance.
How? No, seriously. How are we going to pay for housing, food, clothes, hygiene products, utilities, and who-knows-what-else for what could be dozens of magical girls? Girls who probably won't even speak Japanese, to boot. Not to mention the fact that we'd essentially have a bunch of obviously-foreign teenage girls (whom might not be in the country legally) living alone, paid for entirely with cash.

Sure, we got a bunch of money from robbing the local Yakuza, but that is not sustainable. They'll wise-up eventually, either by not keeping money around in Mitakihara, or by moving out of the city entirely. It's 2011 (IIRC; can't remember the exact year); you won't find substantial quantities of hard cash in many places, and what few places there are will have security measures and cameras (banks and ATMs); sure, Kyubey will mindwipe anything that shows magic, but he might not mindwipe the culprit (so, if it shows Kyouko breaking open an ATM with magic, it might be changed to show Kyouko breaking open an ATM with a non-magical tool).

One girl robbing ATMs on occasion to get money to spend for herself isn't a big deal. Robbing ATMs to get money to spend for dozens of people, for years on end, is going to get noticed and acted upon eventually.

I am thoroughly against the degree of entanglement that is being tossed around atm. It's one thing if we end up with a teleporter and can point-to-point people in 5 minutes a group. If it takes even a thirty minute trip per group for us, though, we're looking at an hour out of town per group. I'm not enthusiastic about that with the situation as volatile as it is, not for the results we're thinking about, and make no mistake, as long as Madoka has godlike potential, Mami has emotional weakpoints, Sayaka is untrained, and Oriko is "unhealthy", the situation is not stable.
Agreed.
Just make the damn offer to buy plane tickets for them. Let them do the travelling on their own time; as long as we give them the cost of travel they can probably make it. I mean, if you have the seeds to be alive, you can stop magicking for a week to hop a plane to Sabrina if you're given the money for it.
How? We don't have a bank account. Even if we did, it would probably look very suspicious to wire hundreds of dollars to various international accounts in a short period of time. I doubt the girls in question have such bank accounts to send money to, and I'm not sure that we can buy plane tickets for lots of other people without raising some flags.

Asking to be excused to speak to someone is not unprofessional and I don't know why you thought to suggest it was. I'm glad you've dropped that.
Indeed.
Considering all the moments in the anime where she gets like this and then there's a damn scene where a contract is averted, I think we damn well will pull her aside and hear her out and reassure her when she gets like this, yes.

I'm of nearly a mind to agree with you. It depends on how long this goes on for. When we're done here we'll be more free to do a better job of reassuring her, is the fact of the matter. On the other hand, stewing on it isn't great for her. Timestop would be ideal but it would seem like an aggressive move on Homura's part unless we coordinated it properly with her -- she'd need to excuse herself, timestop, come back, talk with us in timestop, leave, and return.
Let's make sure we don't engage the timestop until after we're out of sight of Nadia. For now, it's best if information about Homura's powers doesn't become more widely spread than it already is.

... No, I appear to have been mistaken. This... this needs to be addressed immediately. The hell? "Horror" is used twice in a single sentence.
Agreed.

Onmur? This is not how you want to do this. It's too forward, too Sabrina. This isn't where you want to press on the "stay normal" button, this is where you want to listen to her concerns and reassure her. Get her from horror down to ok before you start pushing the stay normal button.
Agreed.

... I think it would be worth seriously considering telepathying Homura with "timestop, don't be aggressive-seeming about it" and talking with her and Madoka in private. I... Well, it's just a thought. She seems comfortable around Homura.
Agreed about having Homura present, but see above.

It's not one thing, Narrator. It's this, the revelation of Walpurgisnacht, etcetera, etcetera. All at once. It's adding up, and it's not happening gradually.
Yes, this is definitely concerning.
 
How are we going to pay for housing, food, clothes, hygiene products, utilities, and who-knows-what-else for what could be dozens of magical girls?
A lot of those things can be made. Housing is abundant between Oriko's mansion and all the abandoned buildings, clothes are pretty easy even for normal people to make and with magical transformations I'm not sure will ever be necessary in any context, hygiene products can be handled with magic. Electricity is trivial, water only slightly less so (there is a river right there), who-knows-what-else can be handled on a case by case basis. Food and internet are the only real sticking points and we don't even know what all the resources we have at our disposal are. Can magic substitute for food? Can hackerguca, if given enough magic, access some nice, plump Swiss bank accounts? Can Oriko regain her power and start playing the stock market? Will one of the refugees be able to do the loaves and fishes thing? Can the matter creator from Asunaro already do the loaves and fishes thing? What if we conquer the yakuza instead of just stealing from them?
 
A lot of those things can be made. Housing is abundant between Oriko's mansion and all the abandoned buildings, clothes are pretty easy even for normal people to make and with magical transformations I'm not sure will ever be necessary in any context, hygiene products can be handled with magic. Electricity is trivial, water only slightly less so (there is a river right there), who-knows-what-else can be handled on a case by case basis. Food and internet are the only real sticking points and we don't even know what all the resources we have at our disposal are. Can magic substitute for food? Can hackerguca, if given enough magic, access some nice, plump Swiss bank accounts? Can Oriko regain her power and start playing the stock market? Will one of the refugees be able to do the loaves and fishes thing? Can the matter creator from Asunaro already do the loaves and fishes thing? What if we conquer the yakuza instead of just stealing from them?

Niko's power is molecular reconstruction (essentially Alchemy via Full Metal Alchemist), so there's no reason she couldn't, given appropriate materials (it also makes her a good potential healer).

But generally, yeah, I don't see what all the fuss with money is about. Magic can provide basically anything we need (also, meguca don't technically need to eat/drink/sleep, being liches), and we have a literally infinite supply of magic.
 
For reference, that image is from right before Madoka chucks Sayaka's Soul Gem. She only makes it right before she takes action.

We need to talk to her fucking immediately, all other arguments are invalid.
 
It's about on the level of "I might be about to watch my best friend be killed by someone who should be a hero, and no-one else is doing anything to stop it, so I need to do something wrong," in terms of horror, then.
 
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