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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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mistfist said:
We should do karaoke sometime in the future, when things calm down a bit and we have some free time. It'd be a great bonding session for everyone (and I want to serenade Mumi pls).

Also, I finally have an excuse to post this. :3
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C-c-cute!

I do think y'all are discounting money too much as a carrot for magical girls, at least for the short term. Like, even after I have enough for subsistence, I still work hard to make more money, because I have things that would be easier if I had it.
 
Diomedon said:
C-c-cute!

I do think y'all are discounting money too much as a carrot for magical girls, at least for the short term. Like, even after I have enough for subsistence, I still work hard to make more money, because I have things that would be easier if I had it.
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The people who seriously care had the discussion on it during last update's voting session. Money is a viable "carrot" that I intend to see us use. This update in particular has only confirmed that.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Bear in mind that as one of the subjects of Homura's wish, Walpurgisnacht benefits from the accumulated karmic destiny of hundreds of timelines.


Theory-crafting ahoy.

Homura's wish has three subjects:
* Madoka, the one being protected, and the prime subject. Over the course of the loops, her potential skyrockets, until she becomes god.
* Homura, the one doing the protecting, and a secondary subject. Over the course of the loops, her powers don't directly grow (likely since her wish occured only once, before the loops occured), but her wish's conceptual backing grows in strength to the point she can use it to directly contest the aforementioned god.
* Walpurgisnacht, the one being protected against, and a secondary subject. When her "wish status" got reset and she could make a new wish, she had absurd potential - enough for griefbending.
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You're proposing that Sabrina is Walpurgisnacht, then? Because something that Madokami did caused her to dewitch and become capable of making a new wish? I suppose it's possible. We really should ask Homura what happened after Madoka made her wish in the last timeline...

AuraTwilight said:
We have an alternate canonical explanation for Homura, though, and Walpurgis also doesn't seem to be meaningfully effected by the loops. Though given that Wally was the strongest witch in the world before Gretchen, is Homura's time travel really necessary an explanation?
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On the contrary, in PMMM, each of Walpurgisnacht's appearances is visibly different. Additionally, the character designs of Walpurgisnacht and Gretchen were explicitly intended to complement each other so that they make an hourglass shape when put together.
 
boonerunner said:
On the contrary, in PMMM, each of Walpurgisnacht's appearances is visibly different.
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Uh... no they are not?

Additionally, the character designs of Walpurgisnacht and Gretchen were explicitly intended to complement each other so that they make an hourglass shape when put together.
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Already talked about why this is. Word of Inu Curry is it represents the futility of Homura's efforts, as when one falls, the other rises, and she has to turn her hourglass.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Madoka wished "everything could be fixed", then shot Walpurgisnacht with an arrow.
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Yup, the last timeline appears to have been identical to canon apart from the wish[1]​:
Firnagzen said:
"So... what exactly happened last loop?" you ask tentatively. "But." You hold up a hand to forestall her answer. "I trust you, Homura, and if you're not comfortable with it, you don't have to tell me."

You let the silence drag again.

Finally, she starts speaking slowly, dredging up painful memories. "Mami died to the sweets Witch. Charlotte, you said? Miki Sayaka made a contract, and saved Madoka from the television Witch. Kyouko Sakura arrived from Kasamino, and I made an agreement with her to gain her assistance for Walpurgisnacht. Miki Sayaka Witched out shortly after."

You stare at her, a chill running down your spine. That sounds remarkably familiar. "Did Kyouko and Sayaka meet and fight in an alleyway? And then you intervened?"

Homura nods slowly, staring back at you. "So you do know about it. You told me that the television Witch might trap Madoka again."

"Wait. I'm sorry, Homura, but this is important - did Madoka make a Wish?" you ask urgently.

She swallows painfully. "Yes. She... she wished that everything could be fixed. And then she killed Walpurgisnacht, and..." Homura trails off, and her shield bearing arm makes a little gesture, grabbing at empty air.
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Something about that wish or what happened afterwards caused Sabrina and Feathers to appear and we're severely lacking in details. Presumably, Madoka transformed into Kriemhild Gretchen, but we don't know what else might have happened before or after that occurred (i.e. did that powerful wish turn her into Madokami?) or why Madoka (apparently) witched out right after contracting (for that matter, we don't know why Madoka witched out right after contracting in timeline 4, either). I know that this is a painful memory for Homura, but we really need to get more details because that information could be crucial in dealing with Feathers.

[1]​ Technically we can also infer that another divergence in the timeline was that Kyuubey did not potential-bomb Homura, since she's still at risk from that bomb now. Either that or memory editing was involved.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Already talked about why this is. Word of Inu Curry is it represents the futility of Homura's efforts, as when one falls, the other rises, and she has to turn her hourglass.
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Yeah, but, like... from a simulationist perspective inside the universe, Walpurgisnacht was shaped like that long before Madoka was born.

If free will exists in PMMM (and given magic, I think it does), then I don't think Walpurgis can be said to be shaped to fit an hourglass motif in-universe.

It's a symbolism thing, like how witch runes aren't actually Faust quotes.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Yeah, but, like... from a simulationist perspective inside the universe, Walpurgisnacht was shaped like that long before Madoka was born.

If free will exists in PMMM (and given magic, I think it does), then I don't think Walpurgis can be said to be shaped to fit an hourglass motif in-universe.

It's a symbolism thing, like how witch runes aren't actually Faust quotes.
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Well, I mean with narrative causality magic, the idea that Wally's components include a Precog wouldn't even slightly phase me. You could also just handwave that Gretchen's sympathetic magic retroactively makes Wally an hourglass by completing the shape, imposing that symbolism over the former, dead Witch Queen.
 
BTW, when Nadia said there's always problems with Grief cleansing powers, that the Grief needs to go somewhere else, like there's a price to be paid, unlike with Sabrina, who's powers seem to be free... does that support the idea that Feathers is literally a counter agent to Sabrina? Or maybe Sabrina can have her special Grief powers because Madoka's already paid for them.
 
Kaizuki said:
--[X] We hold back. A lot. Explain the mecha that we made with Mami the one time, including -- emphasizing -- the ease with which it allowed us to crush that barrier. That was just Mami and us cutting loose just a bit for just a little while.
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As much as I like most of this vote, this line kinda bothers me because it risks hitting Sayaka's inferiority complex again. I mean, she knows we're all treating her with kid gloves, but going on about how much we hold back around her doesn't strike me as the nicest thing to do.

Maybe instead we emphasize that the four of us are basically an infinite power combo when working together, and frankly the main issue you'll have is dialing in enough power to kill Walpurgisnacht without accidentally the city too.

[x] Kaizuki
 
AuraTwilight said:
Uh... no they are not?
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I was looking at a picture on the wiki that claims that she looks different in each of her appearances. But on closer examination (especially the ones between Timeline 1 and Timeline 100) the differences are rather subtle and more easily explained by slight artistic differences rather than because of some sort of intentional progression.

Already talked about why this is. Word of Inu Curry is it represents the futility of Homura's efforts, as when one falls, the other rises, and she has to turn her hourglass.
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Yes? My point was that Madoka and Walpurgisnacht are connected (from Homura's perspective at least). And if Homura's looping is causing Madoka to gain potential then it very well could be causing Walpurgisnacht to gain potential as well. I'm not sure how that would affect a witch, though, since she already would have used up her potential in her original wish(s).

AuraTwilight said:
Er, yes we do. She spends all her magic in one shot to defeat Walpurgis.
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Why would she do that? Nobody else spends all of their magic in one shot. Kyuubey is not surprised that she defeated Walpurgisnacht, only that she did it in one shot. Presumably, Madoka could have made more shots if she had needed to in order to defeat Walpurgisnacht. Note that Kyuubey goes on to say:
Kyuubey said:
Be it sooner or later, there is only one ending for you magical girls. As the strongest of all magical girls, she took down her greatest enemy. Naturally, after that, all that was left was for her to turn into the wickedest of all the witches...
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Which does explain why Madoka's witchout was inevitable, but does not explain why it happened on the "sooner" end of the scale. Perhaps Madoka had wished to defeat Walpurgisnacht, and that wish took up all of her potential from that loop so she didn't have anything left after Walpurgisnacht was gone? Or she's such a sensitive girl that knowing the true horror of the meguca lifestyle caused her to despair pronto? I dunno. But even if the "one shot" explanation was true in Timeline 4, it still doesn't explain why Madoka would have witched out right after killing Walpurgisnacht in Timeline 100, since she should have had way more potential to work with.
 
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boonerunner said:
Why would she do that? Nobody else spends all of their magic in one shot. Kyuubey is not surprised that she defeated Walpurgisnacht, only that she did it in one shot. Presumably, Madoka could have made more shots if she had needed to in order to defeat Walpurgisnacht. Note that Kyuubey goes on to say:
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If it's any explanation, Tart Magica has a case that may be applicable to Madoka. Tart had a lot of potential and has a lot of power when she's a Magical Girl, but lacks the fine control needed to reign in her powers. This causes her to expend much more magic then she needs to as well as makes her attacks much more powerful then she intends.

I can totally see Madoka having this same problem when her potential is "wtf" levels and why she'd ultimately turn into a Witch when she kills Walpurgis ASAP.
 
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Yes? My point was that Madoka and Walpurgisnacht are connected (from Homura's perspective at least). And if Homura's looping is causing Madoka to gain potential then it very well could be causing Walpurgisnacht to gain potential as well. I'm not sure how that would affect a witch, though, since she already would have used up her potential in her original wish(s).
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Only Madoka's potential is bootstrapped because she's Homura's raison d'etre. The future does not exist for a world where Madoka is dead, from Homura's perspective. Wally and other figures only matter in the context of Madoka, while Madoka stands unto herself.

Why would she do that? Nobody else spends all of their magic in one shot. Kyuubey is not surprised that she defeated Walpurgisnacht, only that she did it in one shot. Presumably, Madoka could have made more shots if she had needed to in order to defeat Walpurgisnacht.
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Dude, 1) She beat Wally in one shot. 2) She witched out. What else do you need? Additionally this actual maneuver is detailed in Homura's Revenge, and Homura offsets by splitting the magical costs. Madoka is fine and Homura nearly witches out from the blast.

Which does explain why Madoka's witchout was inevitable, but does not explain why it happened on the "sooner" end of the scale. Perhaps Madoka had wished to defeat Walpurgisnacht, and that wish took up all of her potential from that loop so she didn't have anything left after Walpurgisnacht was gone? Or she's such a sensitive girl that knowing the true horror of the meguca lifestyle caused her to despair pronto? I dunno. But even if the "one shot" explanation was true in Timeline 4, it still doesn't explain why Madoka would have witched out right after killing Walpurgisnacht in Timeline 100, since she should have had way more potential to work with.
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This is literally not how potential works arglebargle why do I need to explain this over and over.
 
Looking at the vote from a cynical perspective... "Why would they need outside help, when they're confident enough to defeat Walpurgisnacht with just the four of them? What's the purpose of a bunch of ordinary magical girls in a hilariously high-level fight like that, other than a.) be in the way b.) be roadkill.

"No. These girls don't need help. They need an audience. They need witnesses to see what happens when you start shit in their territory."
 
defenestrator said:
Looking at the vote from a cynical perspective... "Why would they need outside help, when they're confident enough to defeat Walpurgisnacht with just the four of them? What's the purpose of a bunch of ordinary magical girls in a hilariously high-level fight like that, other than a.) be in the way b.) be roadkill.

"No. These girls don't need help. They need an audience. They need witnesses to see what happens when you start shit in their territory."
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I'm actually fine with the cynics coming to that conclusion; we don't need or want them around (first) anyway. We want the Mamis and the Sayakas of the world to come first, so we can set them up with both a support group of like-minded individuals and 100-year power sources, so that when the cynics and the opportunists come calling we'll be ready with an army of our own.
 
TheEyes said:
As much as I like most of this vote, this line kinda bothers me because it risks hitting Sayaka's inferiority complex again. I mean, she knows we're all treating her with kid gloves, but going on about how much we hold back around her doesn't strike me as the nicest thing to do.

Maybe instead we emphasize that the four of us are basically an infinite power combo when working together, and frankly the main issue you'll have is dialing in enough power to kill Walpurgisnacht without accidentally the city too.

[x] Kaizuki
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I just don't care. We can hit her inferiority complex all we want right now as long as we don't make her run off, we're literally about to take her to sendai and explain exactly how we intend to turn her into Bullshit Tier Blueberry Edition on the way, and we've been talking her up lately. Like seriously, we plan to fix her up with permanent teleportation and a couple offensive or defensive powers on top of that as a baseline. People are commenting in-thread in complete seriousness wondering if she won't end up more powerful than us. We believe she is useful, we are within an hour of explaining it to her in detail. We can take a hit on that angle.

Furthermore, I'd much rather just not talk about Homura's powerset. The less we talk about it, the less it's known. Kyubey surely will figure it out and tell people, but he won't tell everyone and if you don't know timestop exists you've already lost. And, you know, Sayaka doesn't even fucking know what Homura's powerset is, so let's avoid telling Bennouna when we haven't told Sayaka... and more importantly, let's avoid giving away details about Homura to strangers. She doesn't like it when we give away details about her to our friends, necessarily!
 
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Not to mention Koko is a cynic like that, so she'll know how to speak their language.

The language of stab

E: ..... I'm pretty sure we told or showed Sayaka Homura's timestop at some point. Didn't we timestop at the sleepover?
 
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AuraTwilight said:
Only Madoka's potential is bootstrapped because she's Homura's raison d'etre. The future does not exist for a world where Madoka is dead, from Homura's perspective. Wally and other figures only matter in the context of Madoka, while Madoka stands unto herself.
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Here's what Kyuubey said:
Kyuubey said:
There's only one reason you kept repeating this timeline. To save Madoka Kaname. By turning back time over and over, and each time for the same reason, you unknowingly caused these multiple timelines to converge. And they all converge around Madoka Kaname. The threads of fate of all the Madoka's in all the different timelines were never linked before. But if they converged upon a single point, the Madoka in this timeline, then that would explain why she has the powerful magical potential she has. All of the karmic destinies from all the different timelines you affected eventually attached themselves to Madoka Kaname. After all, she's the reason this happened.
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The reason that Madoka has that huge potential is not because Homura cares about her (per se), but rather that her death is the linking point of all the different timelines so she achieves a huge importance. But her death is directly caused by Walpurgisnacht in most of those timelines, so Walpurgisnacht is also hugely important (though not quite as important as Madoka).

AuraTwilight said:
Dude, 1) She beat Wally in one shot. 2) She witched out. What else do you need?
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The correlation is obvious. What I require is causation. You might be right that Madoka expended all of her magic in that one shot and that's why she died, but that isn't clear (at least to me) from watching PMMM.

Additionally this actual maneuver is detailed in Homura's Revenge, and Homura offsets by splitting the magical costs. Madoka is fine and Homura nearly witches out from the blast.
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While I haven't read that manga, Madoka's potential means that she is in a league by herself when it comes to strength. Presumably, soul gem capacity is a part of that strength. So Madoka "splitting the magical costs" with someone who lacks her soul gem capacity sounds like a horrible idea and not a good indicator of how expensive the attack would have been for Madoka if she had done it alone.

This is literally not how potential works arglebargle why do I need to explain this over and over.
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I'm not sure exactly how potential works with respect to wishes based on the explanations in the show, but Kyuubey clearly explained that potential is directly related to the strength of a magical girl after the contract. A stronger magical girl can defeat a stronger witch more easily. So if Madoka from Timeline 4 (or whenever it was) could defeat Walpurgisnacht in one shot (even if it took all her magic to do so), then Madoka from Timeline 100, who is more powerful, should be able to defeat Walpurgisnacht without using up all her magic. (JarringToaster's potential explanation about "control issues" that particularly strong magical girls are plagued with is one possible explanation, but I'm not sure that it's the actual explanation, and it definitely doesn't explain Sabrina).

But all of that is a rather long winded explanation of the fact that I want to ask Homura what happened after Madoka killed Walpurgisnacht. If the answer is simply: "The attack used up all of her magic so she witched out," then fine. But I suspect that there is much more to the story than that.
 
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