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Paths of Civilization

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[X] The ritual is incomplete, more study is required before it can be safely used on a widescale (Temporarily unlocks Scourge Warding megaproject)
[X] Hole up in the hills where the People are at maximum advantage
[X] Bynwyn (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplomacy, Heroic Mysticism, accelerates Scourge Warding megaproject while alive, chance for bonus Stability)

Guys, guys, stop, think about things. If we're committing to another megaproject, that's going to suck up econ/attention. We shouldn't be trying the clever boats thing that'll also cost econ and involve us more in the conflict. Further, the leader selected for the megaproject has poor Martial, this action's going to have more penalties instead of just holing up and waiting it out until we either finish the project or the nomads get bored.
(Also the people out there getting raided might drive more of them to us as refugees kekeke)

If you want the boats, do this instead:
[] Introduce the idea of cow warding to the shamans for use amongst the People (Reduces effects of disease, unknowable longterm effects)
[] Build more boats and attempt a flank attack (Costs Econ to build new boats, which you will keep no matter the result)
[] Standard Leader (No modifiers)

We can't do everything, pick and choose. : (
 
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[X] The ritual is incomplete, more study is required before it can be safely used on a widescale (Temporarily unlocks Scourge Warding megaproject)

[X] Build more boats and attempt a flank attack (Costs Econ to build new boats, which you will keep no matter the result)

[X] Bynwyn (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplomacy, Heroic Mysticism, accelerates Scourge Warding megaproject while alive, chance for bonus Stability)
 
Maragas said:
[X] The ritual is incomplete, more study is required before it can be safely used on a widescale (Temporarily unlocks Scourge Warding megaproject)

[X] Build more boats and attempt a flank attack (Costs Econ to build new boats, which you will keep no matter the result)

[X] Bynwyn (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplomacy, Heroic Mysticism, accelerates Scourge Warding megaproject while alive, chance for bonus Stability)

Anyone willing to inform me, idiot who doesn't know shit about medicine, about this Inoculation and Germ Theory and what it means?
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Germ Theory is that there are small tiny things that infect people and cause the disease, rather than disease being a result of intangible demons or the spiritual corruption of the person in question. So developing Germ Theory means that people understand that diseases are transferred through contact and can be fought through hygiene and sterilization. You can approximate most of the same effective habits that GT provides through rituals and superstition, but the lack of a unifying theory makes that difficult and flimsy. These rituals would also involve less helpful stuff like censers of smoke near a sick person - for all that smoke chases away insects it's not useful v disease, and can clog your throat.

Inoculation is just that if you encounter one disease that's similar enough and get infected by it, you're inoculated against other diseases. Our people are inoculated against smallpox because cowpox is similar; and you yourself are inoculated against flu strains that are similar to ones you've caught in the past.
 
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Academia Nut said:
Mysticism 4
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Huh, i guess we "spent" our mystic tradition to discover immunization/produce our new hero unit? Hmm...on that note, i wonder if making a hero unit into our chief right away might evolve that honour trait right away, help do away with/change the downside about hero units...

As for voting...why yes i would like to have effective government mandated vaccination of small pox before we have metal working XD The econ for boats i'm slightly more worried about, since we don't get our bonus to megaprojects for this since its not land management, but the heroic chief should be similarly good. Still, i'm thinking we'll be down pretty low on econ by the time we finish up the megaproject...
[X] The ritual is incomplete, more study is required before it can be safely used on a widescale (Temporarily unlocks Scourge Warding megaproject)
[X] Build more boats and attempt a flank attack (Costs Econ to build new boats, which you will keep no matter the result)
[X] Bynwyn (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplomacy, Heroic Mysticism, accelerates Scourge Warding megaproject while alive, chance for bonus Stability)
 
Spectrum said:
[X] The ritual is incomplete, more study is required before it can be safely used on a widescale (Temporarily unlocks Scourge Warding megaproject)
[X] Hole up in the hills where the People are at maximum advantage
[X] Bynwyn (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplomacy, Heroic Mysticism, accelerates Scourge Warding megaproject while alive, chance for bonus Stability)

Guys, guys, stop, think about things. If we're committing to another megaproject, that's going to suck up econ/attention. We shouldn't be trying the clever boats thing that'll also cost econ and involve us more in the conflict. Further, the leader selected for the megaproject has poor Martial, this action's going to have more penalties instead of just holing up and waiting it out until we either finish the project or the nomads get bored.


If you want the boats, do this instead:
[] Introduce the idea of cow warding to the shamans for use amongst the People (Reduces effects of disease, unknowable longterm effects)
[] Build more boats and attempt a flank attack (Costs Econ to build new boats, which you will keep no matter the result)
[] Standard Leader (No modifiers)

We can't do everything, pick and choose. : (
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There is a chance that the nomads will back off if we can manage to surprise them.

The real problem is that it basically forces us to do Econ actions the next 2-3 turns to keep things running.
 
[X] The ritual is incomplete, more study is required before it can be safely used on a widescale (Temporarily unlocks Scourge Warding megaproject)
[X] Build more boats and attempt a flank attack (Costs Econ to build new boats, which you will keep no matter the result)
[X] Bynwyn (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplomacy, Heroic Mysticism, accelerates Scourge Warding megaproject while alive, chance for bonus Stability)
 
A nice boon to hygiene and health would be the invention of soap. Soap is actually really simple to make, and you only need stuff that the People have plenty of, namely oil/fat/grease and ashes/potash/lye.
I have no idea how someone would discover it though.
 
[X] The ritual is incomplete, more study is required before it can be safely used on a widescale (Temporarily unlocks Scourge Warding megaproject)
[X] Hole up in the hills where the People are at a maximum advantage.
[X] Bynwyn (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplomacy, Heroic Mysticism, accelerates Scourge Warding megaproject while alive, chance for bonus Stability)
 
Omegahugger said:
There is a chance that the nomads will back off if we can manage to surprise them.

The real problem is that it basically forces us to do Econ actions the next 2-3 turns to keep things running.
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If you pick a Poor Martial leader don't count on great military successes just because someone has a clever idea.

The attack could fail, the attack could succeed but the nomads still want to get stuck in, and so on. And in all those cases, we've spent extra Econ (yes on boats that's great but it's still spent) and we still need the secondary defense action anyway and we're still going to take Econ hits from the project.
 
Spectrum said:
Guys, guys, stop, think about things. If we're committing to another megaproject, that's going to suck up econ/attention. We shouldn't be trying the clever boats thing that'll also cost econ and involve us more in the conflict. Further, the leader selected for the megaproject has poor Martial, this action's going to have more penalties instead of just holing up and waiting it out until we either finish the project or the nomads get bored.
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In order: True. The clever boats thing also specifically lets us keep the boats, which will likely offset the economy cost through enhancements in fishing practices sometime next turn. Poor martial is one of the main reasons people are risking it for the biscuit; we have a war chief especially for this purpose, so while Bynwyn is less likely to perform admirably, the war chief and our new honor value will blunt the chances of a derp campaign (and even a weakly successful campaign using this tactic will cause brutal damage to at least a few of the raiders).
 
Another thing to keep in mind about the boats is that we get to keep them after this. Which means we can use them to get larger amounts of trade, or use them to fish areas, so they won't just be a martial increase I suspect.
 
[X] The ritual is incomplete, more study is required before it can be safely used on a widescale (Temporarily unlocks Scourge Warding megaproject)

[X] Build more boats and attempt a flank attack (Costs Econ to build new boats, which you will keep no matter the result)

[X] Bynwyn (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplomacy, Heroic Mysticism, accelerates Scourge Warding megaproject while alive, chance for bonus Stability)
 
The reason I support the boats is because, at the very least, we will get more sailboats to travel and trade with. If it fails the worse that will happen is that our military will drop down to 4, maybe 3, but we can work to get that back up. The bonus to diplomacy and economy though cannot be overstated enough.
 
Umi-san said:
Germ Theory is that there are small tiny things that infect people and cause the disease, rather than disease being a result of intangible demons or the spiritual corruption of the person in question. So developing Germ Theory means that people understand that diseases are transferred through contact and can be fought through hygiene and sterilization. You can approximate most of the same effective habits that GT provides through rituals and superstition, but the lack of a unifying theory makes that difficult and flimsy. These rituals would also involve less helpful stuff like censers of smoke near a sick person - for all that smoke chases away insects it's not useful v disease, and can clog your throat.

Inoculation is just that if you encounter one disease that's similar enough and get infected by it, you're inoculated against other diseases. Our people are inoculated against smallpox because cowpox is similar; and you yourself are inoculated against flu strains that are similar to ones you've caught in the past.
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Oh boy, we are blazing through some tech. trees.I mean we are in the stone age and we already have a Canal and now this?

I like it.
 
[X] The ritual is incomplete, more study is required before it can be safely used on a widescale (Temporarily unlocks Scourge Warding megaproject)
[X] Hole up in the hills where the People are at maximum advantage
[X] Bynwyn (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplomacy, Heroic Mysticism, accelerates Scourge Warding megaproject while alive, chance for bonus Stability)

so just recently finished reading up on this quest, this is nuts. We appear to be a stone age tribe who's religion can best be described as large scale land management and civil engineering.

votewise, I think we should avoid aggressive military adventures when using a chef who's terrible at war, and ending plague as a thing we have to deal with is well worth delaying a strike at the raiders.
 
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Maragas said:
Oh boy, we are blazing through some tech. trees.I mean we are in the stone age and we already have a Canal and now this?

I like it.
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Well, actually the world as a whole is rapidly progressing toward the copper age and possibly has already reached bronze, depending on what buttons the metalworkers have been pressing. But having sailboats already is quite impressive, I agree.
The canal is sort of ~ It takes a bunch of effort but the Pyramids are roughly equal.
 
Academia Nut said:
Not yet.

Also...



Still kind of crap, but now you know where people are a bit better now.
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Huh. Turns out that the WC was never much in the way of the DP at all. Go figure.

Also, keep in mind the Hubris tag! If we're progressing this rapidly, chances are good that other people are also making leaps and bounds down various other possible advances. The second most dangerous are the DP, but I'd give first place to all the Civ's we aren't aware of yet! Even if they aren't actually gen'd by AcadamiaNut yet :p

2785
 
On current synergies:

The obvious synergy noted by AN (The Shiny): Bynwyn and the megaproject. Theoretically, the megaproject will standardize the inoculation process and make it government sponsored, instead of people randomly showing up at the pastures to rub themselves on a cow teat. Bynwyn's synergy is liable to make it so rapid in study and deployment that a with a double-main the first turn, and a single main the second, the entire project may be done.

There is a limited chance that breaking the civilians of the raiders will cancel the planned war mission as the nomads reel back from the blow, which would allow further synergy in the form of expanded holy sites or further health studies.

The less-obvious (The Safe Route): War Leader and the boat plan. This combination (with or without the megaproject lined up) is the economical plan that is almost certain to cancel the war mission (giving both secondaries back), and support a turn of economic/military expansion to prep in advance of the DP actively seeking us out. It's the safer choice by far, and is likely to net us both Military, Diplomacy, and recoup the Economy cost of the new boats in one fell swoop, as well as breaking the nomads' backs for another few generations and lining us up with a very capable leader to expand our armies immediately after, to get a leg up on the DP that we know are coming eventually.
 
Let me lay out the case like this in a way that should make it clearer what should drive the decision through proper application of game theory.

Build more boats and go on the offense:
Success - Nomads back off, secondary action not needed for War mission. Guaranteed Econ decrease, possible increase later to Econ or Diplo.
Failure - Nomads don't back off, secondary action still needed for War mission. Risk of Military loss. Guaranteed Econ decrease, possible increase later to Econ or Diplo.

Hole up on defense:
Success - Nomads find no easy targets amongst the people, raid others. Possible Econ/Stability trade for refugees. Secondary action needed for War mission only for a turn.
Failure - Nomads keep being belligerent, secondary action needed for War mission for multiple turns.

If Econ is a relevant stat (aka doing the shiny or any other actions that will drain Econ), then Hole up on defense mostly dominates Build more boats.
If Econ isn't a relevant stat (because we're doing an Econ/expansion/not straining research turn), then Build more boats is fine since we won't care as much about the downsides.
 
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