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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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[X] Feed Kyuubey the grief that you just removed from Bennouna's soul gem. Politely insist that Kyuubey leave - its presence is an unwelcome disruption at this meeting. You have some more grief that you'll give it later.
-[X] If it refuses, use grief to remove it from the area, nonviolently.

[X] Hold Mami's hand, tracing out reassurances with your fingers.

[X] If Bennouna asks why our group wants nothing to do with Kyuubey, tell her it was concealing some information from Mami and the rest of the group that it really should have shared. If insufficient, break to voting.
-[X] If she doesn't ask, don't bring it up.

[X] Share information on your abilities, in particular the creation of Clear Seeds, offering proof or demonstrations when requested as practical. Inquire about other girls who might have similar powers, and if she knows of any examples of large scale cooperation between girls that "went right" and operates smoothly.

[x] Since you have this ability, and can spread it by creating clear seeds, you'd like to try and improve the global situation for magical girls in general. You'll keep trying to improve the clear seeds, and ideally find a solution that doesn't require grief seeds at all. But... you know it's not that easy.
-[X] You've foreseen lots of problems with infinite cleansing - abuse, people rejecting it because it's "too good to be true", upsetting power structures, general making-things-worse.

[x] So you'd like her assistance as well - both with sharing information she thinks is useful for our purpose, properly compensated of course, and in spreading news about our offer to people who she thinks would be reasonable.
-[x] That said, even unreasonable people who ask about us, should hear our offer. We know word is going to get out, and it'd be better if our position wasn't misrepresented. We really don't want there to be fights and conflict due to it.

[x] If the questioning calls for it, or if you see an opportunity to raise one of the other topics you wanted to discuss, break to voting.
 
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That particular reasoning. Not volunteering information it should have shared can totally be turned around on us what with the Sayaka and Oriko business. It should be reformulated.
 
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The Narrator said:
I call bullshit on the idea that Western culture is less negatively disposed to having your soul removed from your body. People in Abrahamic religions are cool with the idea of their soul leaving their body when they die. I think most people who actually believed in a soul would be deeply disturbed by the idea of having it removed from their body while they were alive. "A creature with no soul" is a classic description of a horror movie monster. And the whole idea of making a contract in which you trade away your soul is very directly tied to most Western people's conception of the Devil, and pretty much an automatic "you're going to hell" clause in those religions. That's why there are quotes from Faust on the walls in PMMM and the end credits finish on a shot of a Mephistopheles mask.

Just listen to how much the religious conservatives in the U.S. freak out whenever the subject of cloning is raised. For a lot of people in the West, souls are Serious Business.
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The contract would scare a lot of them, yeah...on the other hand, they knew they were making a contract for magic powers, so the possibility that this was sinful likely entered their heads beforehand.

Soul extraction...not as much as you suggest. They'd probably find that minimally disturbing once they found out distance shut down their body: Their Soul is still in control.
 
Reformulating Redshirt Army's Vote so Kyubey can't point out we do the same thing we're judging him for:

[X] Feed Kyuubey the grief that you just removed from Bennouna's soul gem. Politely insist that Kyuubey leave - its presence is an unwelcome disruption at this meeting. You have some more grief that you'll give it later.
-[X] If it refuses, use grief to remove it from the area, nonviolently.

[X] Hold Mami's hand, tracing out reassurances with your fingers.

[X] If Bennouna asks why our group wants nothing to do with Kyuubey, tell her you don't like the fact it doesn't volunteer certain details of the system, ones that have a sizable chance of inducing emotional decline and death in a magical girl if learned after contracting, before somebody contracts. If insufficient, break to voting.
-[X] If she doesn't ask, don't bring it up.

[X] Share information on your abilities, in particular the creation of Clear Seeds, offering proof or demonstrations when requested as practical. Inquire about other girls who might have similar powers, and if she knows of any examples of large scale cooperation between girls that "went right" and operates smoothly.

[x] Since you have this ability, and can spread it by creating clear seeds, you'd like to try and improve the global situation for magical girls in general. But... you know it's not that easy.
-[X] You've foreseen lots of problems with infinite cleansing - abuse, people rejecting it because it's "too good to be true", upsetting power structures, general making-things-worse.

[x] So you'd like her assistance as well - both with sharing information she thinks is useful for our purpose, properly compensated of course, and in spreading news about our offer to people who she thinks would be reasonable.
-[x] That said, even unreasonable people who ask about us, should hear our offer. We know word is going to get out, and it'd be better if our position wasn't misrepresented. We really don't want there to be fights and conflict due to it.

[x] If the questioning calls for it, or if you see an opportunity to raise one of the other topics you wanted to discuss, break to voting.
 
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With thanks to @Vebyast.


You wiggle your fingers at the marbles you drew from her gem. "Three marbles. Total volume approximately six cubic centimeters."

You draw a grief seed out of your pocket and display it. "Roughly one-fiftieth of an average Grief Seed's capacity."

You take a deep breath and pause dramatically. You reach into your other pocket... and draw out a Clear Seed.

"This, is a Clear Seed. It has no grief in it."

You turn your head, toward the roof of the shop. Bennouna's gaze follows your own.

You bring your mass of Grief up into view, an eye-tearing mass the size of a small house.

"Fifty million marbles. Over three hundred thousand ordinary Grief Seeds."
 
Conjured Blade said:
That particular reasoning. Not volunteering information it should have shared can totally be turned around on us what with the Sayaka and Oriko business.
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There's a difference between "we didn't tell you because we were afraid you'd do something stupid", which Madoka straight-up supported us on, and "lol joke's on you ur fuked".
Redshirt Army said:
With thanks to @Vebyast .
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A little bit of grandstanding goes a long way. ^__^
 
Vebyast said:
There's a difference between "we didn't tell you because we were afraid you'd do something stupid", which Madoka straight-up supported us on, and "lol joke's on you ur fuked".

A little bit of grandstanding goes a long way. ^__^
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And Benounna? If Kyubey derails this into a conversation about the difference? What kind of First Impression would that make?
 
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Eh, I think simply making a Clean Seed in front of Nadia will be far, far more impactful than giving her numbers and showing her a mass so large she can't even see all of it.
 
Onmur said:
Eh, I think simply making a Clean Seed in front of Nadia will be far, far more impactful than giving her numbers and showing her a mass so large she can't even see all of it.
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It takes like five minutes of concentration, and makes a huge swirly doom vortex.

It's not appropriate to a cafe setting, is what I'm saying, especially since IIRC uncompressed raw grief before we crush it into marbles is visible to mundanes.
 
Redshirt Army said:
It takes like five minutes of concentration, and makes a huge swirly doom vortex.

It's not appropriate to a cafe setting, is what I'm saying, especially since IIRC uncompressed raw grief before we crush it into marbles is visible to mundanes.
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I wasn't intending to it here, of course. I want the Clean Seed to be as impactful as possible.

We can probably fill Nadia on our math while cleansing the Seed, too.
 
landcollector said:
Make it public in a positive manner, you mean. I expect (and so should you) the Incubator to twist that info to fuck with Sabrina's goals.
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My point about it being public is that we can't really keep that information from him; not for long anyway. And perhaps we shouldn't. Kyuubey is an awful monster who dispassionately sends little girls to their death for the sake of gaining energy. But that doesn't mean that all of his goals and means are absolutely at odds with Sabrina's. From Kyuubey's perspective, clear seeds and cleansing may delay witchouts, but they can't prevent them, so the total energy gain is the same regardless. In fact, the total energy harvest might even increase since girls will be able to use magic more freely and it's even possible that it would allow him to recruit girls at a faster rate than normal.

The current magical girl system is unstable. There is too much conflict between groups of meguca and that produces inefficiencies (i.e. meguca being gem-killed by other meguca, witches not hunted properly, etc.). The system does cycle around an equilibrium, but there is a lot of fluctuation in the process. Kyuubey should be quite happy if Sabrina has the potential to produce a more stable equilibrium which still produces just as much energy (if not more).

This analysis ignores Madoka, of course, whose potential may be high enough to trump all other concerns. Honestly, I hope that all of that potential was used up in order to create Sabrina and that Madoka now has a normal amount of potential. It would make things so much simpler.
 
boonerunner said:
This analysis ignores Madoka, of course, whose potential may be high enough to trump all other concerns. Honestly, I hope that all of that potential was used up in order to create Sabrina and that Madoka now has a normal amount of potential. It would make things so much simpler.
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Unfortunately not. Firn has confirmed that Madoka still has all her potential, I'm afraid.
 
boonerunner said:
Where was that?
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Here:
linkhyrule5 said:
On a side note: @Firnagzen - roughly, how much potential does Madoka have right now? You noted earlier that we can roughly judge potential by shades of Grief, so...
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Firnagzen said:
One metric fuckton.
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Julian Bradshaw said:
Do we actually know this? I thought that we've never confirmed Madoka still has her usual massive potential, and it's possible (if not necessarily likely) it somehow got used in creating Sabrina instead.
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Firnagzen said:
Free info: she does.
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aeqnai said:
Here:
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Thanks. Drat. That means that Kyuubey must take every possible action that will increase the likelihood of Madoka contracting, regardless of whether that action makes any sense otherwise. So even if we came up with a perfect plan to maximize energy gains on Earth, Kyuubey would still reject it if it prevented a contract by Madoka and her eventual witchout (and any workable plan must prevent Madoka from witching out otherwise Earth is doomed). Ugh. Utility Monsters are annoying.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Onmur on Mar 28, 2017 at 12:26 AM, finished with 113474 posts and 20 votes.
  • [X] Feed Kyuubey the grief that you just removed from Bennouna's soul gem. Politely insist that Kyuubey leave - its presence is an unwelcome disruption at this meeting. You have some more grief that you'll give it later.
    -[X] If it refuses, use grief to remove it from the area, nonviolently.
    [X] Hold Mami's hand, tracing out reassurances with your fingers.
    [X] If Bennouna asks why our group wants nothing to do with Kyuubey, tell her it was concealing some information from Mami and the rest of the group that it really should have shared. If insufficient, break to voting.
    -[X] If she doesn't ask, don't bring it up.
    [X] Share information on your abilities, in particular the creation of Clear Seeds, offering proof or demonstrations when requested as practical. Inquire about other girls who might have similar powers, and if she knows of any examples of large scale cooperation between girls that "went right" and operates smoothly.
    [x] Since you have this ability, and can spread it by creating clear seeds, you'd like to try and improve the global situation for magical girls in general. You'll keep trying to improve the clear seeds, and ideally find a solution that doesn't require grief seeds at all. But... you know it's not that easy.
    -[X] You've foreseen lots of problems with infinite cleansing - abuse, people rejecting it because it's "too good to be true", upsetting power structures, general making-things-worse.
    [x] So you'd like her assistance as well - both with sharing information she thinks is useful for our purpose, properly compensated of course, and in spreading news about our offer to people who she thinks would be reasonable.
    -[x] That said, even unreasonable people who ask about us, should hear our offer. We know word is going to get out, and it'd be better if our position wasn't misrepresented. We really don't want there to be fights and conflict due to it.
    [x] If the questioning calls for it, or if you see an opportunity to raise one of the other topics you wanted to discuss, break to voting.
    [X] Feed Kyuubey the grief that you just removed from Bennouna's soul gem. Politely insist that Kyuubey leave - its presence is an unwelcome disruption at this meeting. You have some more grief that you'll give it later.
    -[X] If it refuses, use grief to remove it from the area, nonviolently.
    [X] Hold Mami's hand, tracing out reassurances with your fingers.
    [X] Continue with vote in abeyance.
    [X] If Bennouna asks why our group wants nothing to do with Kyuubey, very gently lichbomb her.
    -[X] If Bennouna insists on receiving proof, then ask Mami to take your soul gem out of range. Leave the cafe first, to avoid frightening people. Mami, so that way you'll still be with her the entire way. You're not going to ask anyone else to disconnect themselves, and you don't really mind it.
    --[X] Take the opportunity to try to remain aware through your soul gem while being disconnected.
    ---[X] Manifest Chibi-Brina before being disconnected. Explain it before you manifest it, to avoid problems. Use it to help maintain focus, to lessen the impact of Mami seeing the lichbomb being demonstrated, and to steal some quick Mumi-hugs.
    [x] Remain calm. Help Mami remain calm. Hold her hand if possible, but be professional about it.
    [x] Tell Kyubey that we have some Grief to deliver to him. It's waiting up on the roof. He should head up there so we can give it to him. And after he does so, he should contact whatever his species considers an expert on the subject of grief and ask if there's a way to make our grief into a form that's more efficient for their conversion rates.
    -[x] If he already knows one, then give the grief out in that form, unless it takes meditation, in which case we can feed him later.
    -[x] While he goes up there, stay down here and remotely guide a couple seeds' worth of Grief into his back while we continue to talk to Nadia.
    [x] If Nadia seems to realize that Kyubey makes Mami uncomfortable, let Mami decide how much she's willing to share about the reason why.
    [x] Continue vote in abeyance.
    [X] Stay calm and impartial.
    [X] Tell Kyubey that we have some Grief that needs disposing off if he wants them.
    [X] While you're busy dumping grief into his back, ask why he's here.
    [X] Ask Nadia if she's okay with his presence.
    -[X] If not, kindly ask Kyubey to go somewhere else.
    [X] Continue Vote in Abeyance.
    [x] Remain calm. Help Mami remain calm. Hold her hand.
    [x] Tell Kyubey that we have some Grief to deliver to him. It's waiting up on the roof. He should head up there so we can give it to him.
    -[x] While he goes up there, stay down here and remotely guide a couple seeds' worth of Grief into his back while we continue to talk to Nadia.
    [x] If Nadia seems to realize that Kyubey makes Mami uncomfortable, let Mami decide how much she's willing to share about the reason why.
    [x] Continue vote in abeyance.
    [x] Sabrina
    [X] Feed Kyuubey the grief that you just removed from Bennouna's soul gem. Politely insist that Kyuubey leave - its presence is an unwelcome disruption at this meeting. You have some more grief that you'll give it later.
    -[X] If it refuses, use grief to remove it from the area, nonviolently.
    [X] Hold Mami's hand, tracing out reassurances with your fingers.
    [X] If Bennouna asks why our group wants nothing to do with Kyuubey, tell her you don't like the fact it doesn't volunteer certain details of the system, ones that have a sizable chance of inducing emotional decline and death in a magical girl if learned after contracting, before somebody contracts. If insufficient, break to voting.
    -[X] If she doesn't ask, don't bring it up.
    [X] Share information on your abilities, in particular the creation of Clear Seeds, offering proof or demonstrations when requested as practical. Inquire about other girls who might have similar powers, and if she knows of any examples of large scale cooperation between girls that "went right" and operates smoothly.
    [x] Since you have this ability, and can spread it by creating clear seeds, you'd like to try and improve the global situation for magical girls in general. But... you know it's not that easy.
    -[X] You've foreseen lots of problems with infinite cleansing - abuse, people rejecting it because it's "too good to be true", upsetting power structures, general making-things-worse.
    [x] So you'd like her assistance as well - both with sharing information she thinks is useful for our purpose, properly compensated of course, and in spreading news about our offer to people who she thinks would be reasonable.
    -[x] That said, even unreasonable people who ask about us, should hear our offer. We know word is going to get out, and it'd be better if our position wasn't misrepresented. We really don't want there to be fights and conflict due to it.
    [x] If the questioning calls for it, or if you see an opportunity to raise one of the other topics you wanted to discuss, break to voting.
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[X] Redshirt Army

To weigh in on the Soul/Lichbomb Impact thing, I think of my soul as where my consciousness and personality comes from, everything that makes me "me", housed in my brain, if I theoretically got meguca'd, not that I could, I'm a boy, the only difference to me would be that where it is housed changed from brain to rock. I'd honestly worry more about how exposed and vulnerable that is, than the more soul-focused aspects of it. Just weighing in my opinion of souls and the Lich thing.
 
Dragonjackel said:
I'd honestly worry more about how exposed and vulnerable that is
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Basically, meguca are Achilles: invulnerable (well, unkillable, anyway) except for one weak spot. With muggles, on the other hand, we have several relatively vulnerable points that can take varying amounts of damage before failure occurs; additionally, some damaged or destroyed parts can be outright replaced.
TL;DR: Being meguca has its pros and cons.
 
I was hoping that pointing Kyubey to the Grief on the roof would get him out of here without having to have an open confrontation in front of Nadia....
 
"So this is how it ends," the white-haired girl in front of you muses, "a damn planet buster."

You press the white-and-black cube in your hand to your soul gem, drawing grief off of the purple crystal, and you look through the void, the... Some corner of your mind supplies that it's an asteroid, now, that you're standing on, is giving you a prime view of the other shards of the Earth as they expand into space.

She laughs, a wretched, hateful noise like the screeching of a thousand blackboards. You don't. You keep your pain internal, for now.

Almost on instinct, a near-hardwired reaction to a scene of armageddon like this, you reach for your shield.

"We could... We could build a gravity generator. Pull it all back together. Fix... No. Won't work."

And stop. You'll go back, try again, but...

"Trek... Schizotech... No, no good, come on Brina, come on..."

You don't... You don't want to go back. You want to go home, to the house that doesn't exist as of two hours ago, and kiss Madoka, dead as of two hours ago. You don't want to go back to the loops. You want your life back, not what you've come to feel was your personal hell.

"Nanomachines? Won't propagate fast enough. Uh, white hole... Equivalent... Thing... And we'll pull another Earth out of a parallel universe! Uh, except, control radius is way too small for that. Shit."

... As long as she's still talking, there's a chance, you decide. Probably. You push yourself off the ground.

"Can we fix this?" You ask. Four words. One more than the most important sentence you'd ever said before today.

The answer is slow to come, and not what you want to hear. "No," says the white-haired girl, "we probably can't. We could try to rebuild the Earth, but the soulstuff of everyone is already too scattered. It's not humanly or superhumanly possible. I'm running an all-cylinders analysis with Nuno at the moment, but it's not looking good."

And if the grief-based AI says it's not looking good, then...

"Aaaaand that's... That's that. We don't have the meguca for it. Best case scenario we need another two powersets to do anything."

She turns to look at you.

"I'm sorry, Homura."

You shake your head. "It can't be impossible. It's never been impossible. She died and you brought her back."

But she shakes her head right back. "Too much is gone. I stayed away from antimatter for a reason. Homura... I'm going to witch myself. I said it was humanly and superhumanly impossible, but for a witch..."

She trails off, before continuing, "You should loop before then. Go back. You've got everyone's contingencies for this figured out and you're honestly just better than you were. You'll figure it out. You'll save her eventually, for good. And... Well, I already asked you not to let Mami be alone."

The whole time you've had your hand on your shield, but at this, it comes off. "I... I don't want to loop. I want to get what we had back."

That rocks her. She practically reels and ends up falling on her butt. She stares at you, then, for a long while, and you stare back. You're waiting, hoping, for another of her hair-brained schemes that always seem to work out in the end.

And then the look on her face changes. A mix of horror and joy, incredulity and insight. And you think to yourself, I've been waiting for this moment.

"Rebellion," she says. "It would work. Maybe. That's better than the alternatives. If you'd rather take an insane risk, then we'll simulate the Rebellion. A fake world in a timestop; a fake isolation barrier in a fake world in a real isolation barrier in a real timestop. Fake-real people and fake-fake things. A fake goddess and a fake incubator. And at the end of it, a very, very real devil, with the power to change it all."

You don't understand even a tenth of what she's saying, and you. Don't. Care.

You whip your hand back to your shield and slam the disk ninety degrees right, purpose-made enchantments dragging Sabrina into the timestop with you.

"Tell me what to do."
 
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Hannz said:
It's not impossible for a girl to not be bothered or even like the Witch/Lich Bombs, and still remain on even or friendly terms with Kyubey.

Just look at Joan of Arc, it did nothing but strengthen her resolve and she didn't even point a finger at Kyubey.

If I remember correctly, the PSP game even had a Witch that idolized Kyubey. Her Witch form wore a Kyubey mask and her Witch Card said something about admiring his purpose and thanking him for how he finally made her relevant and useful.

Nadia could be any of those two or she could have just stopped caring. No sense at getting angry at a volcano, after all.
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You know, thinking about it, i bet we could make a deal with him about safely Lich Bombing people. It's inefficient to have people Witch out from that after all.
 
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