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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Post note: How about we both dial down the salt/drop this argument? I disagree with you on a fundamental level, and you disagree with me on that same very fundamental level, and we've provided pretty much every scrap of evidence either of us have. All we've done is make it very clear that we interpret it in wildly different ways. We're not doing much more than dumping a big ol' bowl of salt on the thread anyway.
 
I really don't get how proposing simple ideas to try out stuff some time in the future always prompt so many heated responses in this thread. It's not like this would take a lot of time to test, just do it before going to bed or something. (Obviously not, but you get what I mean).

You can argue all you want about the possibility of creating "Grief Magic for Dummies" and if Firn allows it or not, but we can just try it out some time and we'll likely get a headache and see that it doesn't work or it may actually work after all, who knows?
 
AuraTwilight said:
He's made clear multiple times that he enjoys watching our thinking and experimenting
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Hell, sometimes he participates, when an idea catches his interest strongly enough. Like the grief laser, or the nanomechanical photokinetic cantilever eyes.
Guilop said:
I really don't get how proposing simple ideas to try out stuff some time in the future always prompt so many heated responses in this thread. It's not like this would take a lot of time to test, just do it before going to bed or something. (Obviously not, but you get what I mean).
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The accusations of wasting time on brainstorming waste more time than the brainstorming itself.
 
Guilop said:
I really don't get how proposing simple ideas to try out stuff some time in the future always prompt so many heated responses in this thread. It's not like this would take a lot of time to test, just do it before going to bed or something. (Obviously not, but you get what I mean).

You can argue all you want about the possibility of creating "Grief Magic for Dummies" and if Firn allows it or not, but we can just try it out some time and we'll likely get a headache and see that it doesn't work or it may actually work after all, who knows?
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I consider myself a swing voter in Science Politics, so maybe I can help:
  • Some very active, very self-confident, very abrasive people who set themselves up in Science and Social camps early on.
  • Fundamentally incompatible assumptions about the quest's goals and scope which ensured the two camps would only get worse at compromising and understanding each other.
  • Speaking of incompatible assumptions - the idea of cost. Sure, a few moments of in-universe time and a headache isn't a big deal. But does science try the patience of other characters? Does spending 'narrative time'/'vote time' count as a cost?
  • The difficulty of deducing strict laws of physics from fuzzy clues delivered through narrative, and the conflicting interpretations that inevitably result.
  • Some really dense science sessions early on in the quest, back at Warehouse-kun, which bored and frustrated the prominent Social players. (Science players generally still enjoy the social parts of the quest - wouldn't be in the fandom if they didn't like the characters - so the boredom doesn't go both ways. At least not to the same extent.)
  • The whole Barrier debacle, along with Firn's "nuke" omake, which frightened some players off of science.
  • Some honestly badly timed science, like the time we tranced mid-air and nearly crashed when we were meant to be rushing to Mami's side.
There's surely more I can't think of.

The controversy over science may be frustrating, but it isn't coming out of nowhere.
 
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Atosen said:
There's surely more I can't think of.
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Another element of it is that a lot of the "science" that people bring up isn't even systematic study of the power, so much as people wanting to fuck around with some random shiny thing. Even calling it science whenever people want to do arbitrary griefhax is a misnomer, and contributes to the problem.

But yeah, there's a lot of things that led to the current climate in the thread.
 
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Godwinson said:
Another element of it is that a lot of the "science" that people bring up isn't even systematic study of the power, so much as people wanting to fuck around with some random shiny thing. Even calling it science whenever people want to do arbitrary griefhax is a misnomer, and contributes to the problem.

But yeah, there's a lot of things that led to the current climate in the thread.
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I don't necessarily agree that unstructured play isn't "science", but... I did have to rephrase my post after I realised I was calling some perfectly rational people "anti-science", which is some propagandically powerful terminology. There's definitely an issue there.
 
Actually, hmm.

Didn't the pantsless girls achieve dewitching by stuffing the cor malefica/witch core in a clone body?

Granted, the result didn't have memories but they DID have a memory manipulator.

So, asuming that the witch core is the clear seed, why can't we just find someone who can make clones and do as the Subarus did?
 
Well, Kazumi is distinct from the Grief Seed to the point that she has a false Soul Gem and she gets to keep her Grief Seed after she became a Magical Girl. And they made multiple Kazumis.

It's more that they took some of the 'witch flesh', shaped it into the desired form, and then shoved in enough memories/personality details that a soul spontaneously started up.

So uh. WOW.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Well, Kazumi is distinct from the Grief Seed to the point that she has a false Soul Gem and she gets to keep her Grief Seed after she became a Magical Girl. And they made multiple Kazumis.

It's more that they took some of the 'witch flesh', shaped it into the desired form, and then shoved in enough memories/personality details that a soul spontaneously started up.

So uh. WOW.
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I was under the impression that the fabricator magical girl made a false Kazumi body and they shoved the Cor Malefica into that.

Edit: oops

As per Kazumi Magica ch 13 p 22, the body they stuffed the Cor Malefica in wasn't fake or fabricated. It was Kazumi's actual corpse.

Regardless, because of meta knowledge,w e should be aware of this method so an approach to de-witching could just be an improvement on the Subaru method (because I can't spell Pleiades without spellcheck)
 
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Tam Lin said:
Edit: oops

As per Kazumi Magica ch 13 p 22, the body they stuffed the Cor Malefica in wasn't fake or fabricated. It was Kazumi's actual corpse.
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Huh. If that's what it takes, then we're in trouble with mass-scale de-Witching; we don't even know if, for example, Hildegard even left a corpse, how old it is, or where she could be found.

Also, um, ewww.
 
TheEyes said:
Huh. If that's what it takes, then we're in trouble with mass-scale de-Witching; we don't even know if, for example, Hildegard even left a corpse, how old it is, or where she could be found.

Also, um, ewww.
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That leaves the question of:

If there was only ONE corpse (obviously), then how did they create THIRTEEN Kazumis, so obviously, only one of them used Kazumi's actual corpse.

The rest were probably made by Niko? Miko? I forgot her name.

Regardless, basing dewitching on the Subaru method and combining that with what we know of clear seeds would be a lot closer to real science (i.e. synthesizing two bits of knowledge that we DO know work and seeing if it sticks) than flailing around.

Granted, flailing around got us Clear Seeds, but flailing around with griefhax is heavily resisted? I don't know if Resisted is the word.
 
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Random question, why haven't we made an Empty Seed for Homura?

Sure, we see her often enough to cleanse her, but it'd seem like a good thing for her to have.

(Don't mind Mami, Mami doesn't need Empty Seeds because she's got Grief Cleansing powers by proxy.)
 
Onmur said:
Random question, why haven't we made an Empty Seed for Homura?

Sure, we see her often enough to cleanse her, but it'd seem like a good thing for her to have.

(Don't mind Mami, Mami doesn't need Empty Seeds because she's got Grief Cleansing powers by proxy.)
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Because she might go mad with power :V

But more seriously, I think it would not help her isolation. IMO, Homura's been quite liberal with her timestop use, now that she has Sabrina frequently cleansing her gem. Having her even less reliant on us would mean she'd need even less time outside timestop.
 
Onmur said:
"Here you go, Homura-chan."

*Hands over Empty Seed*

*Nods*

*Hands back teh same Seed full again*

"Can I have a refill?"

"..."

"..."

"Homura...?"

*Shuffles*

"What the hell did you just do?"

"Just refill the Seed- actualliy, I'll take two."
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I'm thinking of Sabrina serving her seeds over the counter of a bar now.
Sereg said:
it's your fault you never see hints of the greater scope
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This feels like an Oriko thing to say.
 
TheEyes said:
Huh. If that's what it takes, then we're in trouble with mass-scale de-Witching; we don't even know if, for example, Hildegard even left a corpse, how old it is, or where she could be found.

Also, um, ewww.
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Niko of the Subarus (I'm all for this new meme taking off) can create arbitrary mundane matter with her powers, including human corpses.

Onmur said:
"Here you go, Homura-chan."

*Hands over Empty Seed*

*Nods*

*Hands back teh same Seed full again*

"Can I have a refill?"

"..."

"..."

"Homura...?"

*Shuffles*

"What the hell did you just do?"

"Just refill the Seed- actualliy, I'll take two."
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Once we start grief seed trading in earnest, I'm all for making Homura our clear seed depository. Her shield storage is a hell of a lot more secure then anywhere else we might keep the seeds, and giving Homura literal millennia of cleansing power is a very nice expression of trust.

P.S. I wonder if she can work out a way to cleanse her soul gem with a grief seed in her storage. Giving her UNLIMITED POWAH would be one way to stop her from freaking out from losing her timestop post-Walpurgis.

Prince Eggplant said:
This feels like an Oriko thing to say.
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There's a reason Sereg is called Sabrina's inner Oriko. :V
 
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Redshirt Army said:
There's a reason Sereg is called Sabrina's inner Oriko. :V
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Doesn't make him wrong.

EDIT:
AuraTwilight said:
Because of things I have no right volunteering on Firn's behalf, but we'll leave it at "I know how he thinks." He's made clear multiple times that he enjoys watching our thinking and experimenting, it's what prompts his Gendo posing.
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This, on the other hand, somewhat does. And Sayaka said that "acquire knowledge" tends to not work.

Still, not experimenting because "it might spoil the fun" sounds like strange approach: if it does not fit QM's definition of fun, it just won't work. But not even trying is kinda...defeatist.
 
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Onmur said:
Random question, why haven't we made an Empty Seed for Homura?

Sure, we see her often enough to cleanse her, but it'd seem like a good thing for her to have.

(Don't mind Mami, Mami doesn't need Empty Seeds because she's got Grief Cleansing powers by proxy.)
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I'm actually been thinking a lot lately that we should make an Empty Seed for Mami. That way we wouldn't have to worry about something happening if we're not there with her, and it ensures that she'll have the chance to live a long and full life even if the quest winds up ending with Sabrina making a heroic sacrifice or something.

Don't know why I never thought about giving Homura one before. Maybe because grief seed shortage never seemed to be an issue for her. But it'd be good for her to have one, too. Really every meguca should have one if we can swing it. It's basically equivalent to handing them a chance at living a full and normal life. I don't want to put Homura in a situation where she might run short on a vital resource because we wanted her to be dependent on us so we'd see her more often, 'cause that's actually... kind of a messed up way to treat someone.

ctulhuslp said:
Still, not experimenting because "it might spoil the fun" sounds like strange approach: if it does not fit QM's definition of fun, it just won't work. But not even trying is kinda...defeatist.
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Agreed. If, as some people feel, figuring out our powers is supposed to be part of the fun of the quest, then presumably we're expected to actually try to figure out our powers. Which means that we need to, y'know, try things. If we don't try anything, then we learn nothing.
 
TheEyes said:
:facepalm:

Ugh, what a mess. I make one idle comment, figuring I'd just get a bunch of people echoing back, "Huh, neat idea. Sure, let's spend a couple minutes trying that next SCIENCE session," or, at worst, one of the oldsters quoting a post I missed forbidding this very idea. And now the thread's on fire, reasonable discourse is completely dead, everyone's married themselves to stupid ideas and pointless bits of personal sophistry, and I've lost my hat.

Guess this was a bad plan.
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There there, you had no way to know that info books were a hot button topic.
 
*raises Book Flag*

Why a 0 Risk, Variable Reward action is so divisive, in a Quest with Infinite Timestop, is beyond me.
 
Higure said:
*raises Book Flag*

Why a 0 Risk, Variable Reward action is so divisive, in a Quest with Infinite Timestop, is beyond me.
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Because narrative space has a real cost of people's time and there's no reason to expect it to work and multiple reasons why it wouldn't.

Also, Homura's Time Stop comes at the price of her patience. She's also shown signs of wavering confidence and growing fatalistic dejection when she sees our failures.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Her shield storage is a hell of a lot more secure then anywhere else we might keep the seeds
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Are seeds safe to go in there? Sorry, I forgot a lot of details. I just feel a bit wary of putting soul-related things into it. Actually, what do we know about the storage function? I always assumed it was basically infinite hammerspace with 'timestop inside' so Homura doesn't end up grabbing a rotten lunch from several loops ago.

[X] Hannz
 
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