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You, on the other hand, need to behave rationally both as a character and as players. How do you know what you know? Are you sure what you know is correct? In this case you were told that meta-knowledge was not trustworthy, yet you trusted it anyway. It's not our job to spoon feed you if you start making bad decisions.

Noted. We'll need to look underneath the underneath and not be too lazy to ask questions. Gonna try to do so in the future.

Now, about Captain Zabuza of the Hunter nin... I wonder if our merry band is going to replace him as the primary antagonists of the first Naruto arc? I hope not, since that would mean tangoing with Kakashi, but just in case we should probably refuse any possible mission that gets us close to Wave.
 
Now, about Captain Zabuza of the Hunter nin... I wonder if our merry band is going to replace him as the primary antagonists of the first Naruto arc? I hope not, since that would mean tangoing with Kakashi, but just in case we should probably refuse any possible mission that gets us close to Wave.
There will be no first Naruto arc that we're aware of. We're going to be isolated from the events of the story, and pretty busy just trying not to die. As for the possibility of the Wave arc even happening, we have no clue. A nation that's stable compared to canon is a big change already.
 
Guys.

Realistically, noone who suffered the constant, omnipresent abuse naruto did would come out of it with a chipper attitude.

Additionally, Sasuke may have foregone being a ninja entirely, using what knowledge he was given in politics (the lessons for which started when his dad and Itachi had their falling out, and Fugaku wanted to have a viable second option if he had to replace Itachi as clan heir) to try desperately to keep hold of his clan holdings. Not that it was particularly difficult, at first, since most of the major clans decided (and the minor ones agreed) that taking advantage of the 6-year-old PTSD-ridden survivor of what was once one of Konoha's most valued, trusted, and loyal clans was in such poor taste as to constitute a drop in political standing.

This is assuming, of course, that the Uchiha Massacre happened, and that Itachi didn't just lock his clan's rebelliousness up in Kotoamatsuki using Shisui's eye.
 
So if there was no Uchiha Massacre, there is pretty much 0 point of trying the seduce Sasuke strategy. Hell, they might even go out of their way to kill us if they think we have a shot of actually reproducing the Sharingan outside of Konoha.

Also, the whole Danzo vs. Sarutobi clash of wills was probably ended one way or another years ago. It makes 0 sense why a Hokage would allow some underling to be so condescending and outright rebellious in his actions. If I were to rationalize the Naruto universe a rational Hiruzen Sarutobi would just straight up kill Danzo for some of the shit he pulled, in addition to ending Orochimaru before he even escaped (or even as early as he learned of the human experimentation/vivisections). Remember, Hiruzen Sarutobi was called a "God of Shinobi" back in his hey-day.

And we decided to camp out in his backyard.
 
@Dictator4Hire: Now you're getting it!

Don't worry, our plan to befriend someone we've never met and probably don't even know exist will 100% work out!
+1 Despondent Vindication

We're only about 500 miles away from Mist. We should have deserted "Hidden Lock," in Key Country, and fled to Iron Country, which doesn't have a ninja village on the map, or Bird Country, which doesn't have a ninja village at all. That's about three times the distance from origin that we are now.
 
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Guys.
This is assuming, of course, that the Uchiha Massacre happened, and that Itachi didn't just lock his clan's rebelliousness up in Kotoamatsuki using Shisui's eye.
Some more questions, somewhat relevant to this:
1) Is the sharingan as stupidly overpowered here as in the series? And is it as easily transplanted? (he asked, for no particular reason)
2) Is the rinnegan a thing? What about Kaguya?
3) Is Akatsuki a thing?
4) What is known about the tailed beasts? Is the juubi a thing?
5) What are the relations between the countries of the elemental nations?
6) Who are their best known kages?
7) Who are current kages?
8) Who are their best known ninjas and what do we know about them?
9) Did Hashirama Senju found the village-system? Did Uchiha Madara defect, very publically?
10) Am I mixing my in-character questions and OOC-questions too much here? Will we still get answers OOC if we don't know something IC?
11) Is Tobi a good boy?

So if there was no Uchiha Massacre, there is pretty much 0 point of trying the seduce Sasuke strategy. Hell, they might even go out of their way to kill us if they think we have a shot of actually reproducing the Sharingan outside of Konoha.

Also, the whole Danzo vs. Sarutobi clash of wills was probably ended one way or another years ago. It makes 0 sense why a Hokage would allow some underling to be so condescending and outright rebellious in his actions. If I were to rationalize the Naruto universe a rational Hiruzen Sarutobi would just straight up kill Danzo for some of the shit he pulled, in addition to ending Orochimaru before he even escaped (or even as early as he learned of the human experimentation/vivisections). Remember, Hiruzen Sarutobi was called a "God of Shinobi" back in his hey-day.

And we decided to camp out in his backyard.

Or: a rational Danzo would not be as stupidly antagonistic and actually either pretend to cooperate or actually cooperate a bit more. Root might still be a thing, Danzo might still toe the limits of what Sarutobi will condone, if so, this necessitates Danzo being not quite as fanatical about Konoha as he is sometimes depicted, but instead simply willing to do what is necessary, while not engaging in all-out treason.
If he doesn't over-stay his welcome and Sarutobi trusts him, and he is choosing correctly in trusting him, I can see Danzo being in place.
If both Danzo and Sarutobi are more intelligent, they probably never had a massive clash of wills anyway. Probably just a bit of a tiff about methods, with Sarutobi being not happy, but seeing the necessity of it, while also potentially not knowing about all of it.
It basically boils down to: Sarutobi trusting Danzo. Danzo being worthy of the trust.

A rational Orochimaru might've escaped under his own power(well-prepared for likely consequences of discovery) instead of being allowed to escape as well.
 
Once again, step one of the game plan is "don't die".

Now that we know Zabuzza is a hunter-nin and might come after us, how do we propose to escape from him?

In canon he uses hidden mist jutsu, water dragon jutsu, water clone jutsu, and water prison jutsu. He has sufficent KI to paralyze genin, and a ridiculous sword.

In-quest we should expect him to focus more heavily on stealth/tracking, but to still be a massive pain in the butt to fight.

Solution: don't fight him.

Ever.

Fighting him is a death sentence.

Don't do it.

Instead, I suggest that as soon as we get warning of Zabuzza's approach we create a bunch of clones and have them all scatter in different directions, while we henge ourself into a pebble, positioned so that a clump of leaves (or suitable alternative) is covering us in case he can see through henges.
 
1) Is the sharingan as stupidly overpowered here as in the series? And is it as easily transplanted? (he asked, for no particular reason)
Doubtful. Possibly.
2) Is the rinnegan a thing? What about Kaguya?
We wouldn't know. Probably not, but we wouldn't know.
3) Is Akatsuki a thing?
We wouldn't know.
4) What is known about the tailed beasts? Is the juubi a thing?
Good question.
5) What are the relations between the countries of the elemental nations?
Good question.
6) Who are their best known kages?
Not sure why this would be relevant.
7) Who are current kages?
Good question.
8) Who are their best known ninjas and what do we know about them?
Good question.
9) Did Hashirama Senju found the village-system? Did Uchiha Madara defect, very publically?
Good question. Doubtful.
10) Am I mixing my in-character questions and OOC-questions too much here? Will we still get answers OOC if we don't know something IC?
Yes. We will not.
11) Is Tobi a good boy?
Fuck no.

Instead, I suggest that as soon as we get warning of Zabuzza's approach we create a bunch of clones and have them all scatter in different directions, while we henge ourself into a pebble, positioned so that a clump of leaves (or suitable alternative) is covering us in case he can see through henges.

Perhaps before making plans about this, we should first ask how the basic three work in the first place? What do these techniques require, and what benefits do they confer?

For example, do we have to puppet clones, taking concentration? Do transformations actually change our effective size or mass? What does it take to see through a transformation? What can we detect or enact while transformed?
 
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Relevant question: how are we all still alive?

It's been 3 weeks, we're a squad of 27 (mostly incompetent Genin) hiding from one of the most powerful Hidden Villages on the continent...in the home of probably the most powerful Hidden Village on the continent.

How have no Hunter-nin or ANBU found us yet? Are our Jonin that good at hiding our tracks?
 
Once again, step one of the game plan is "don't die".

Now that we know Zabuzza is a hunter-nin and might come after us, how do we propose to escape from him?

In canon he uses hidden mist jutsu, water dragon jutsu, water clone jutsu, and water prison jutsu. He has sufficent KI to paralyze genin, and a ridiculous sword.

In-quest we should expect him to focus more heavily on stealth/tracking, but to still be a massive pain in the butt to fight.

Solution: don't fight him.

Ever.

Fighting him is a death sentence.

Don't do it.

Instead, I suggest that as soon as we get warning of Zabuzza's approach we create a bunch of clones and have them all scatter in different directions, while we henge ourself into a pebble, positioned so that a clump of leaves (or suitable alternative) is covering us in case he can see through henges.
A general rule in plan "dont die" is: "Dont fight unless the odds are heavily in your favor or you are certain of winning due to actual legitimate information. Or unless you absolutely have to in order to have a chance of surviving."
Or alternatively: "If you have a choice, only engage in a fight when it isn't one."
 
Can we hold off on the rampant speculation till we atleast start the game. Once we figure out our resources it will be a lot easier to plan for survival. I'm sure we'll be given at least a tutorial battle against a wild animal or something so that we can get used to how skills are used and figuring out what the best way of applying our character will be.
 
Well, if ROOT does exist, I could see them, due to limiting numbers, using us as a extra deniable proxy. Or at least stalling overt action while they figure out if they can or can not. If they did pull that off, it would be a good source of high risk (marginal reward) missions.
 
Of the arguments proposed in post #425, only #1, half of #8, and #10 are invalidated by a lack of Civil War, while the value of #2 and #9 is increased substantially as Mist is now a potentially unpredictable rival with which the Leaf must contend and seek advantage over. This is a net loss because #10 and #8 were our best arguments against risk-averse ninja, but there're still numerous compelling reasons for Sarutobi to consider it, especially if we frame it as "we escaped our executioners and are now defecting to Konoha" instead of "we became missing-nin."

After all, as much as there is a social contract to kill missing-nin, there is also social contract to shelter defectors, lest they defect to your rivals instead of you.* Sasuke defected to Sound, a hugely weaker Hidden Village, and Konoha literally couldn't do anything about it for 3 years?

It's not as airtight as before, but that was always a second contingency below "remain undetected for as long as possible."

We'll see what's up once we get IC info about Konoha.

*GMs, if this is not true, please notify us!
 
I think we should rule out any plans where we defect to leaf, seeing how this quest is about founding a new village.

If we derail too heavily the QMs might get upset and go "Pain hears a rumor you have a bijuu, everyone dies."
 
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This has not happened. Stop relying on canon.

I'm just pointing out an example. If no such social contract between defector and defectee exists, I've asked to be notified. But it seems reasonable enough. Any village that credibly demonstrated such a contract would outperform other villages, as even a single jounin defector represents a colossal information edge. The Nash Equilibrium postulated would ensure that any village that claims to accept defectors but instead quietly disappears them would sharply limit the number of future defectors it benefits from, and if all villages do so, we return to the initial unstable situation where any village can gain a massive edge by accepting defectors. Jounin aren't stupid, after all. Speaking of which, I'm hoping our jounin have good reasons for settling down in Fire; my current plan is just to hear the details of their plan and propose any improvements we can think of.

I think we should rule out any plans where we defect to leaf, seeing how this quest is about founding a new village.

If we derail too heavily the QMs might get upset and go "Pain hears a rumor you have a bijuu, everyone dies."

A railroading quest would be almost the exact opposite of a rational one, which asks of us to determine the most effective plan regardless of how ridiculous it intuitively sounds. Whatever option we take should be the one with the highest margin of safety. To what degree is interacting with Konoha more or less safe than the alternative? When the alternative is "pick up and run across Fire Country, avoiding sentries until we get to Tea Country, which has no innate defenses against hunter-nin," we must consider which is the lesser evil.
 
I think we should rule out any plans where we defect to leaf, seeing how this quest is about founding a new village.
Assuming we do go down that route, part of founding a new village is establishing relationships (whether hostile or otherwise) with the more established ones. Since we are on Konoha's land, it's only sensible to have arguments to defuse hostility. We cannot win a protracted engagement with Konohagakure no Sato; any conflict above the level of the absolutely trivial, even if we can survive an onslaught of jounin-tier combatants, ends with 'and then Hiruzen Sarutobi, God of Shinobi, smote the invaders into dust, thus proving the indomitability of the Will of Fire. The end.' No matter how you feel about joining Konoha in the long run, that's an outcome to be avoided.

Regarding negotiating tactics, the proposed arguments are likely to at least buy us breathing room, assuming we get to make them; the primary issue I foresee with diplomacy is failing at the first hurdle. We're a bunch of Mist ninja hiding on Konoha's land; the line between refugees and an invading force is a then one, when actors as potent as jounin-tier ninja are involved. The presence of numerous genin and us not taking any offensive actions might help a bit by providing a smokescreen, but with a more stable Mist that's less riven by strife, I don't think Sarutobi and his advisers will be able to trivially rule out the possibility that we're 'missing' ninja. Actionable intelligence is proportionally more valuable here, but when dealing with a Hidden Village that has its metaphorical shit together, the chances of our presence not being a trap of some kind is... low. Traditionally, the response to a bunch of foreign combatants hiding on your land is to send in forces of your own; if bodies start dropping, the chances of a peaceful resolution plummet sharply. It would be convenient if all those in power were rational actors who understood mistakes on the battlefield, but many experienced ninja, especially those whose minds have been warped by the horrors they've seen and perpetrated, are not.

With that in mind, we should either:
  1. Avoid discovery completely. The caverns offer good concealment and we have an earth affinity/relatively high stealth rating, so we can materially contribute to making sure nobody finds us, especially if we pick up some basic earth-shaping techniques. Food might be a problem, but since we want the subterranean movement ability anyway, we can volunteer to learn that and exit the caves covertly to bring back food/water.
  2. Ensure first contact is with a force substantially weaker than our own and politely impress upon them our complete lack of hostile intentions towards Konoha. The nightmare scenario, here, is some reconnaissance team discovering our encampment and slipping away unnoticed before bringing back a jounin death squad. Jounin death squads are to be avoided at all costs.
 
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(I'm only sporadically available, as I'm at games night right now, but will try to pop in occasionally.)

All of it is a joke. Eaglejarl is a jokester. To me this reads tongue-in-cheek.
Extending benefit of doubt and all that. Eaglejarl won't deliberately screw us.
He likes to play the role of the "feeding-on-tears" guy, but he has enough perspective and is well-adjusted enough socially to know not to actually be that guy. Heck, he can write characters that make internal sense with differing motivations and believable conflicts. To do that you have to be able to simulate other perspectives somewhat. That helps on the "accurately-modeling-what-is-socially-acceptable"-thingy.

All of this is correct.

I'm sure we'll be given at least a tutorial battle against a wild animal or something so that we can get used to how skills are used and figuring out what the best way of applying our character will be.

Oy! Stop reading my notes!
 
Oy! Stop reading my notes!

Really? I had you pegged more of as a guy who would give ourselves and our companions an interesting backstory. Then we have a fight with some of our former comrades from Mist. Nothing quite rips your heart out like seeing a friend killed by another friend.

But hey, you are a nice person and nice people don't make strangers on the internet feel bad, right? RIGHT?
 
A railroading quest would be almost the exact opposite of a rational one, which asks of us to determine the most effective plan regardless of how ridiculous it intuitively sounds. Whatever option we take should be the one with the highest margin of safety. To what degree is interacting with Konoha more or less safe than the alternative? When the alternative is "pick up and run across Fire Country, avoiding sentries until we get to Tea Country, which has no innate defenses against hunter-nin," we must consider which is the lesser evil.

Point.

That said, the quest prompt is explicitly about founding a village and we don't know for sure how the QMs will react if if we say "Fuck that, let's be Uchiha-serfs.", for example.
 
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