We cannot discuss alternatives with Boris, Boris is not open to discussion. He told us what he is going to do, kill his father, and give us the chance to do it first to our benefit.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
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We cannot discuss alternatives with Boris, Boris is not open to discussion. He told us what he is going to do, kill his father, and give us the chance to do it first to our benefit.
- Location
- Oklahoma
Right, the whole point of Chaos is that you can find their influence in anything and everything if you look for it, because between them their domains cover the entire breadth of possible behavior.
For instance, you could find a similar amount of reasons to claim Mathilde is a follower of Tzeench, Slaanesh, or even Khorne.
[X] Yes
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
[x] Yes
[X] Yes
RandomTechPriest
He Who Steals Toasters
[X] Yes
[x] Yes
[xx] Yes
[xxx] Yes
[xxxx] Hell Yes
[xx] Yes
[xxx] Yes
[xxxx] Hell Yes
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We are, right now, bringing something that will improve Kislev's situation if implemented. Tzar Vladimir don't give a damn.
It's not a new situation, it's not a freshly discovered problem. "My father strongly resists change, which keeps Kislev weak and disorganized" is a problem Boris has been grappling with for a long time. It won't go away if we suggest more things to the Tzar.
[X] Yes
[x] No
I Think on balance Yes should win but am also voting No as Mathilde should feel conflicted, so a closer result is my desire.
Previous votes sometimes reflected the scale of the win in the narrative and and I absolutely don't want to be totally 100% onboard with this.
[x] No
I Think on balance Yes should win but am also voting No as Mathilde should feel conflicted, so a closer result is my desire.
Previous votes sometimes reflected the scale of the win in the narrative and and I absolutely don't want to be totally 100% onboard with this.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
[X] Yes
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
I've been pressing reply and answering to various people as I read along. As I continued I have become less of an avid No supporter, out of a mix of pragmatic reasons from Mathilde's pov and because Boney clarified why the Grey Order is the way it is (which is quite frankly a horrifying way to be but currently to Mathilde's advantage).
I still am not quite leaning Yes. I am also a bit uncomfortable with the various additional arguments of why this is totally justified, trying to make Vladimir look worse than we actually know he is, to the point of branding him a likely Khorne worshipper or the absolute monarch of a slave state or a traitor to his people in a way that is not true for all nobility. Vladimir isn't stellar, but he's not even close to as bad as Dieter IV. I don't need moral arguments in order to convince me of the merits of assassination in order to be swayed, but seeing moral arguments that are clearly lopsided and biased in favor of the conclusion makes me, if anything, less likely to vote in favor.
If we do this then we are a supernatural secret agent commiting assassination for a regime change, because we like the new ruler more and think, based on three or four personal testimonies of people we are sympathetic towards, that said new ruler would be a better ruler while also being good for our own interests and goals. Any inkling that Boris actually will save countless Kislevite lives is marred in OOC knowledge and on screen biases.
Just to play devil's advocate:
He hates the semi-religious and super secretive single gender order that has ambitions to be the power behind the throne it used to be in the past. He is an excellent war commander that has the loyalty of his army and the nobility. He knows his weakness when it comes to administration and is happy with a more decentralized state instead of aspiring to absolute monarchy. The Boyars agree with him.
Sorry. That's not quite fair. Neither Algard nor the Emperor would know about this either, so its not relevant to the case at hand. But this still seems like something the Spymaster should at least know about before it happens.
.
But no way in hell does any Kislevite get the right to apply "deep magical scrutiny" to a Magister Patriarch, not that it would help in any way when used on a brain of solid Ulgu.
1.) If Tsareviches coming to the Grey Order becomes the normal way regime changes happen in Kislev then that would probably be to the advantage of Kislev and definitely be to the advantage of the Grey Order, at least until the day that the International worker's revolution finally comes to pass.
2.) If a mediocre Tsarevich asks a Grey LM to assassinate a good Tzar, the LM can choose to assassinate the Tsarevich instead.
If you want to give strictly ethical considerations more emotional oomph, just imagine how Belegar, despite his Goraki and Realpolitik traits, would feel if he ever found out (including either proof or confession).
I mean that as an honest question, not an accusation. You may well be right, given Mathilde's many advantages.
I still am not quite leaning Yes. I am also a bit uncomfortable with the various additional arguments of why this is totally justified, trying to make Vladimir look worse than we actually know he is, to the point of branding him a likely Khorne worshipper or the absolute monarch of a slave state or a traitor to his people in a way that is not true for all nobility. Vladimir isn't stellar, but he's not even close to as bad as Dieter IV. I don't need moral arguments in order to convince me of the merits of assassination in order to be swayed, but seeing moral arguments that are clearly lopsided and biased in favor of the conclusion makes me, if anything, less likely to vote in favor.
If we do this then we are a supernatural secret agent commiting assassination for a regime change, because we like the new ruler more and think, based on three or four personal testimonies of people we are sympathetic towards, that said new ruler would be a better ruler while also being good for our own interests and goals. Any inkling that Boris actually will save countless Kislevite lives is marred in OOC knowledge and on screen biases.
That was against a Vampire plot (so no real ethical question of whether it was right) and in a case where the Emperor was compromised. It was also technically high treason regardless and something none in the nobility could let slide, for precedence reasons. Not even a hypothetical Emperor that would not be highly emotional about the whole thing.
Just to play devil's advocate:
He hates the semi-religious and super secretive single gender order that has ambitions to be the power behind the throne it used to be in the past. He is an excellent war commander that has the loyalty of his army and the nobility. He knows his weakness when it comes to administration and is happy with a more decentralized state instead of aspiring to absolute monarchy. The Boyars agree with him.
We know this? Heidi has not been doing some clandestine diplomacy through whoever ended up being High Priest of Ranald in Kislev instead of us or something?
Sorry. That's not quite fair. Neither Algard nor the Emperor would know about this either, so its not relevant to the case at hand. But this still seems like something the Spymaster should at least know about before it happens.
I like it. We should try the Boyar of Erengrad first, since we have an in with him. The Boyar of Praag is also likely to say yes to anything that helps even a bit.
We don't even know in what ways this is good for the Empire, except insofar Boris currently seems easier to talk to and negotiate with than Vladimir. But even if we go full "pay the Empire", we don't know what the Empire would actually like in payment for something like this. And we can't ask, because we can't even tell Algard.
His death is not inevitable. He might fend off the assassins/win the civil war and behead his own son for treason.
Does this also go for Baba Niedzwenka and/or the Ice Witches making deals with various Boyars? Neither of them agreed to be Mathilde's official subordinates in the Waystone Project after all. Officially they are all partners.
Maybe old Tzar Vladimir who is yet not known as Vladimir the Bloody is a secret Khorne worshipper. And maybe we are currently meeting with the Changeling in Erengrad. Who knows
.I agree that we cannot call on additional resources for this. That's too conspicuous and we have all the resources we need available to us anyway.
But no way in hell does any Kislevite get the right to apply "deep magical scrutiny" to a Magister Patriarch, not that it would help in any way when used on a brain of solid Ulgu.
In such a lopsided situation we could also choose to assassinate Boris instead. Or just warn Vladimir.
That seems like too little payment for something like this.
That's cruise missile levels of collateral. On people that would have otherwise been loyal to the new Tzar. Please lets not.
That wasn't political. It was a police action against someone in league with Vampires, sanctioned by his league lord who was also our legitimate employer. And he didn't die before pretty much admitting that he's in league with Vampires.
No siblings or fraternal uncles either? If so, that's another reason not to go through with it. If we fail, Kislev is fucked.
How do you think Belegar and his Council would feel if this got out?
The Grey Order LMs assassinating on their own recognizance with no oversight to the point where they can say "yes" to a foreign dignitary's regicide mission with little deliberation and no investigation is a secret, I'm pretty sure.
These two are counteracting each other if you think about them in the framework of his Kilsev's government has worked before Vladimir and will work after he's gone. An absolute monarch that leaves ruling and administrating to provincial nobles is not an absolute monarch. He's just a monarch.
Two arguments to counter yours.
1.) If Tsareviches coming to the Grey Order becomes the normal way regime changes happen in Kislev then that would probably be to the advantage of Kislev and definitely be to the advantage of the Grey Order, at least until the day that the International worker's revolution finally comes to pass.
2.) If a mediocre Tsarevich asks a Grey LM to assassinate a good Tzar, the LM can choose to assassinate the Tsarevich instead.
Multiple people have already spoken about the reforms Boris will implement. There's very few reforms we could even guess at based purely on IC knowledge. Bit unfair to single one person out for it.
Well put. It's exactly what irked me with many arguments even as other arguments nudged me closer to Yes.
If you want to give strictly ethical considerations more emotional oomph, just imagine how Belegar, despite his Goraki and Realpolitik traits, would feel if he ever found out (including either proof or confession).
Honestly? If Boris can't find any decent alternatives at all to Mathilde, despite being evidently willing to ask foreigners, then I question his value as a Tzar.
They aren't disguising anything. They clearly stated the purpose of the numbers and how they help them with their own thought processes despite being mostly made up. "Very sure" and "95% sure" simply have different effects on some people's minds.
Do you really think that the only way we get exposed is multiple nat 1 in a row? As opposed to, say, one nat 1 at an important roll and/or multiple normal failures (like not beating a DC of 35 despite our bonuses) in a row? Like, you think a near flawless assassination is more likely than Abelhelm surviving the charge on the town of Drakenhof?
I mean that as an honest question, not an accusation. You may well be right, given Mathilde's many advantages.
She *does* kill things and keep their skulls as trophies...
- Location
- Czech Republic
I mean, I understand that we flunked our diplomacy classes, but this is not how it works. We have something that he wants - the skill to assassinate his dad if we need to - and we can leverage that into concessions. We can say, okay, we'll do it, but only if we see that this is the only option. Try this and this and this first. We even have leverage on him now that we know he's planning regicide. We can threaten to warn the other side if he doesn't comply. He cannot dictate our options one-sidedly. We are not an NPC.
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This seems pretty clear:
We do not get a vote on what he does, we take it or we leave it.
- Location
- Germany
[X] Yes
- Location
- Czech Republic
Well then, if he's not going to negotiate, he's not the kind of person I want to see on Kislev's throne.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
That's good, it shouldn't be a decision made comfortably or well.
So now you're shifting the goalposts.
Are you really assuming Borris hasn't tried alternatives with his father? Every fucking alternative!
He's just talked to us about how his dad won't implement something that is likely vital to Kislev's long term survival because it would come across as subsidizing an external nation FFS.
[X] Yes
I feel like this will be a close vote
I feel like this will be a close vote
His father is also that kind of person, also far more stupid and hates magic.
