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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Otrovik said:
I'd be more worried about what the Kislevites might do to us than the Empire
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I'm not at all worried about what the Kislevites might do to us, excepting for any chance of war with the Empire.

Unless we're traveling in Kislev I don't exactly expect to be having hits on us arranged by the Witches (they don't like Vladimir anyway) or something.
 
I'd say Yes.

It's a tough call but it is unlikely the Tsar is protected by magic users, due to his hatred of them, and that makes things easier in a lot of ways.

Exfiltrating is normally where we fuck up, so we should probably do it in a way that leaves that as not a problem.
 
We could really pull a lot of concessions from Boris if we succeed. I dislike getting into internal politics. I would not do this if this happened inside the Empire.

But the Empire will benefit out of this. We can do a lot. A damned lot with both concessions, and blackmail opportunities in the future.

Realpolitik says yes. Ethics says no.

This is going to be a contentious vote
 
At the very least considerations of the Waystone Project are irrelevant to this. Planning a coup to make tributary rollout easier straight up sucks as a plan.

If it's being done, it's because we think it furthers the cause of shoring up the Old World in the roll-up to Everchosen-bowl. Or possibly because it's good for the Empire if we're feeling nationalistic.
 
Garlak said:
I do not think this is a good idea. Meddling with another nation's course like this, even if if it were for good reason, even if it's never found out that we did it... it just doesn't sit right with me. And "assassinating somebody just because they're in the way", because that's what this is, isn't a good reason in my book.

Plus, it feels like if we did it, we'd always have in the back of our mind "We assassinated a head of state for this; what's a bit of <X> in light of that?" for other decisions regarding the Waystone Project. Or for another other future project or cause we undertake that would be big enough.
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It's not a choice between "Vladimir is killed by us, with blame falling on whoever we frame." and "Vladimir lives." It's a choice between "Vladimir is killed by us, with blame falling on whoever we frame." and "Vladimir is killed by Boris, with blame falling where every Boyar with something to gain wants to point it." His death is inevitable, what we're voting on is whether or not we want to influence the details toward a better outcome than a Kislevite civil war.
 
Enthusiast#117 said:
Besides, these tributaries are just the first thing to come out of the waystone project. From the sounds of things if we eventually produce something bigger with more visible impact and immediate value, then the people of Kislev would be on board with rolling things out anyway.
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But this would be the perfect area to see visible result of our project.
And if we get approvale to do this early with Boris backing us the spread of Troll country and Chaos is stiffled which is just good for everyone.

Edit: Also we can better control the fallout if we help.
 
The fact that Boris is going to overthrow his father no matter what is what makes the decision for me here. Mathilde has better odds of accomplishing this without mess than anyone else the Tsarvich could get on short notice.

We have to consider the alternatives. Is one politically motivated assassination worse than allowing a civil war or much messier assassination because we did nothing? If Mathilde wanted to keep her hands clean she certainly picked a strange choice of career.
 
Gavin Prince said:
At the very least considerations of the Waystone Project are irrelevant to this. Planning a coup to make tributary rollout easier straight up sucks as a plan.

If it's being done, it's because we think it furthers the cause of shoring up the Old World in the roll-up to Everchosen-bowl. Or possibly because it's good for the Empire if we're feeling nationalistic.
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Yeah, this, bluntly, isn't about the tributary roll out, not really. This is basically "do we do the assassination or let Kislev likely fall into a civil war when the next everchosen will soon enough be crowned?"
 
Mopman43 said:
I'm not at all worried about what the Kislevites might do to us, excepting for any chance of war with the Empire.

Unless we're traveling in Kislev I don't exactly expect to be having hits on us arranged by the Witches (they don't like Vladimir anyway) or something.
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I might have misinterpreted you in some way-I was thinking of "What if they catch us red-handed?" and not "What if they catch us after a long and sober investigation?"

I think the Kreml Guard trying to hack us apart might be something worthy of thought?
 
Garlak said:
I do not think this is a good idea. Meddling with another nation's course like this, even if if it were for good reason, even if it's never found out that we did it... it just doesn't sit right with me. And "assassinating somebody just because they're in the way", because that's what this is, isn't a good reason in my book.

Plus, it feels like if we did it, we'd always have in the back of our mind "We assassinated a head of state for this; what's a bit of <X> in light of that?" for other decisions regarding the Waystone Project. Or for another other future project or cause we undertake that would be big enough.
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You say all this like it's a bad thing, but that's just the natural development of a grey wizard. Sure, we've mostly been off the maps and galivanting outside of the settled world, but this is nothing different to what we were already doing- it's just the species that are changing.

Mathilde is currently a bit behind because of all that, but it's about time we get the ball rolling.
 
Ganurath said:
It's not a choice between "Vladimir is killed by us, with blame falling on whoever we frame." and "Vladimir lives." It's a choice between "Vladimir is killed by us, with blame falling on whoever we frame." and "Vladimir is killed by Boris, with blame falling where every Boyar with something to gain wants to point it." His death is inevitable, what we're voting on is whether or not we want to influence the details toward a better outcome than a Kislevite civil war.
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Mathilde can probably manage better than a simple frame-job (and a frame-job would probably require a much better understanding of Kislev politics to know who best to frame).

I'm expecting this will be more along the lines of natural causes (like the Empress) or arranging some kind of hunting accident.

I think likely the latter, I doubt anybody in Kislev would blink twice at 'the Tzar did fighting some beastie'.
 
Parabola said:
Boney, is this implying that without our help, Boris will forcefully usurp his father, whether by assassination or openly?
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The position he's laid out is that Chaos mobilizing means Kislev either starts preparing now or goes extinct, and that Tzar Vladimir is not willing to start preparing now, and that Tsarevich Boris is not willing to let Kislev go extinct. There's not a lot of gentle resolutions to that roadblock.

Garlak said:
... Is there any way to get the Boyars on board with the Waystone Project instead, then? If the Tsar won't order this because it's an Imperinyi project -- and because the payoffs are incremental and slow -- then can the Boyars be convinced to do this somehow?
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Heads of state really don't like it when you deliberately bypass them to start directly negotiating with regional powers. It's a direct challenge to their power and legitimacy.
 
Otrovik said:
I might have misinterpreted you in some way-I was thinking of "What if they catch us red-handed?" and not "What if they catch us after a long and sober investigation?"

I think the Kreml Guard trying to hack us apart might be something worthy of thought?
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Oh, I meant solely in terms of long-term consequences.

I do expect Mathilde can probably get away from even determined pursuit. The Kreml Guard can't teleport.
 
Boney said:
Relationships with Kislev have barely improved since the era of Kattarin the Bloody, and the only international project between the Empire and Kislev of any substance is the Waystone Project.
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To me this says 'yes'. Things are already rotten in the state of Denmark. We might mess it up, but probably less than leaving things to fall out on their own.
The next everchosen is coming - this is how Kislev becomes an asset against them.
Or maybe Boris is another contender in the chosen-bowl. Might be something to watch out for.
 
So how would we ask the emperor what he wants of Kislev? Just, run into the chamberlain in passing and say, "Hey, might be a good time to ask Kislev for any favors you want of them. I promise Boris is up for it."?
 
Byzantine said:
It's a tough call but it is unlikely the Tsar is protected by magic users, due to his hatred of them, and that makes things easier in a lot of ways.
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Unless, of course, he is secretly a worshipper of the Blood God. He's not a perfect fit for the profile, but between his love of killing things and his hatred for magic users, he might be close enough for government work. Of course, in the unlikely but not totally impossible event that the Tsar is a Chaos worshipper, that just makes the need for his removal all the greater.
 
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