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Dragon Ball: After the End

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HoratioVonBecker said:
Would we or would we not have had a considerably easier time of the Unsealing if we'd spent more AP on style training? I'm not saying you're wrong, exactly, but bad build votes look like they have a pretty significant impact on our ability to survive mistakes.
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we could have gone with spirit saiyan active. That would have made the whole confrontation trivial, and it's maybe our biggest mistake yet.

We could have FIRST imprisoned Dandeer and only AFTER gone with the whole formal "you're guilty" speech.

We could have acted before then, taking the initiative instead of trusting the adults (who were already under multiple spells.

We could have simply investigated Dandeer more, and sooner, following the leads we were given (the terrorists, the attack on the prisoners, how there were only TWO sorcerers in the whole vegeta half of the exiles..)

We could even have become her allies if things had gone different, or maybe we could have slowly and peacefully convinced her to free Jaffur (hard, but not impossible until we went over her head to train Jaron and she decided we had just become her archenemy).

All of those things didn't depend on our build. our build only became relevant once we fucked up everything else.

Once we ended up in a fight against Yammar, Berra (arguably the strongest super saiyans), and Vegeta (which we REALLY should have imprisoned before that. We should have expected HIM at the very least to come and fight for Dandeer) with only Jaffur and Apra (arguably the weakest of the super saiyans due to her being rusty) at our side our defeat was, if not certain, highly likely.

We could have even left the battlefield at any time to go and charge the spirit saiyan. Jaffur and Apra could have probably held them up long enough for us to charge it if we acted immediately.
 
Pittauro said:
we could have gone with spirit saiyan active. That would have made the whole confrontation trivial, and it's maybe our biggest mistake yet.

We could have FIRST imprisoned Dandeer and only AFTER gone with the whole formal "you're guilty" speech.

We could have acted before then, taking the initiative instead of trusting the adults (who were already under multiple spells.

We could have simply investigated Dandeer more, and sooner, following the leads we were given (the terrorists, the attack on the prisoners, how there were only TWO sorcerers in the whole vegeta half of the exiles..)

We could even have become her allies if things had gone different, or maybe we could have slowly and peacefully convinced her to free Jaffur (hard, but not impossible until we went over her head to train Jaron and she decided we had just become her archenemy).

All of those things didn't depend on our build. our build only became relevant once we fucked up everything else.

Once we ended up in a fight against Yammar, Berra (arguably the strongest super saiyans), and Vegeta (which we REALLY should have imprisoned before that. We should have expected HIM at the very least to come and fight for Dandeer) with only Jaffur and Apra (arguably the weakest of the super saiyans due to her being rusty) at our side our defeat was, if not certain, highly likely.

We could have even left the battlefield at any time to go and charge the spirit saiyan. Jaffur and Apra could have probably held them up long enough for us to charge it if we acted immediately.
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Regardless, while "your build will be viable (at least, assuming a bare minimum of competence) to give you some chance of winning" is definitely reassuring, it doesn't quite solve the "investing points in your best skill before the endgame is all but guaranteed to lock you out of something cool" issue. Saying "you could have unlocked this, but yoink!" still feels like a punishment.
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
Regardless, while "your build will be viable (at least, assuming a bare minimum of competence) to give you some chance of winning" is definitely reassuring, it doesn't quite solve the "investing points in your best skill before the endgame is all but guaranteed to lock you out of something cool" issue. Saying "you could have unlocked this, but yoink!" still feels like a punishment.
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It's a question of whether taking the cool thing now instead of holding out for a cool thing later is worth it.

I'm sure we won't be researching Elite Talents for skills we know we're maxed out on, and I very much doubt that Poptart is cruel enough to say "Galactic Range Ki Sensing Talent unlocked - oh sorry, you're full, forget about it." It just won't come up.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
It's a question of whether taking the cool thing now instead of holding out for a cool thing later is worth it.

I'm sure we won't be researching Elite Talents for skills we know we're maxed out on, and I very much doubt that Poptart is cruel enough to say "Galactic Range Ki Sensing Talent unlocked - oh sorry, you're full, forget about it." It just won't come up.
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Unless, of course, we become leaders of elite troops who can take things like that. :D
 
I remind you: we have a relative who has been trying to run/hide from the Enemy for a long time. And, according to the received vision, in about a year he will die.
We can just let it to happen, of course... Really, guys? o_O
I don't say we need to do something right now. For now we should focus on invasion to Namek. Just want to remind you about that plot-line.
edit: Thanks to @googlyeyesultra (post below) for info - we have more than three years, actually (if our actions don't create butterfly effect, at least).

stairmaster said:
That's why for Round 2 we gotta have SSJ-2 mastered. Way easier to fire off.
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To do this, we need a way to somehow hide it first. If we don't want to attract the attention of the Enemy, I mean. And we don't want... yet.
 
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[X][DESTINATION] Tamrii.

[X] Plan Deathbybunnies
[X] Plan Broad Training
[X] Plan: It's not a spaceship, it's a training room! v3

Well, may as well, yeah?
 
Koraan said:
I remind you: we have a relative who has been trying to run/hide from the Enemy for a long time. And, according to the received vision, in about a year he will die.
We can just let it to happen, of course... Really, guys? o_O
I don't say we need to do something right now. For now we should focus on invasion to Namek. Just want to remind you about that plot-line.
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We have several years. This is the post with the vision, which says he dies in four years, and we had that vision a couple of months ago.
 
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Koraan said:
While we're talking about that guy, are there any plans what to do with him? I think the best solution would be to faked his death. But how exactly?..
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The options I've come up with:
Talk to him beforehand, then use a wish to transport him to Garenhuld (probably at the same time we bring Perika there).

Stage a very public fight between Toru and a bounty hunter in which Toru appears to be absolutely atomized by a ki blast, but actually we IT him out (we'd need to raise our IT skill so we can do it faster and set things up reaaaally well, or teach him IT if he doesn't know it yet).
 
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googlyeyesultra said:
The options I've come up with:
Talk to him beforehand, then use a wish to transport him to Garenhuld (probably at the same time we bring Perika there).

Stage a very public fight between Toru and a bounty hunter in which Toru appears to be absolutely atomized by a ki blast, but actually we IT him out (we'd need to raise our IT skill so we can do it faster and set things up reaaaally well, or teach him IT if he doesn't know it yet).
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More or less like my thoughts.
I think that we could ask our friends from Namek to create a fake body, for credibility.
And I'm not sure that it's worth wasting a wish on this. If we'll have time for preparation, then we, most likely, can cope without it. And if we'll use wish, we can just wait for his death and then resurrect him. This will be a much more reliable dramatization. :D
 
Koraan said:
And I'm not sure that it's worth wasting a wish on this.
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Main reason I'd consider using a wish is because we may need one anyways to get Perika to Garenhuld, since taking a ship would be slow, trackable, and require multiple stops in which she could be discovered. As long as we're spending a wish to transport someone, might as well make it a two-for, and I think that should be within the realm of possibility for a wish.
 
googlyeyesultra said:
Main reason I'd consider using a wish is because we may need one anyways to get Perika to Garenhuld
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Hm. Well, if we'll go to use wish for it - sure, we may try to hit two burds with one Death Star shoot. :V

Just in case, if the smiley is not a sufficient indicator, I will clarify - this is a joke. I'm unlikely to support this use of wish, because this is something we can do with enough caution. But I don't think it's bad idea. If we'll have access to more than one wish - I'd likely vote for it.
 
stairmaster said:
That's why for Round 2 we gotta have SSJ-2 mastered. Way easier to fire off.
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mastered (as in full power super saiyan 2) is basically impossible. It took one year to master the basic super saiyan, the second level should take a LOT more.

Mastered as in unlocked, maybe. Problem is that we can only try to unlock it on Namek under the katchin shell, or in the otherworld after we go through Hell. Otherwise we risk being sensed.

Still just unlocking it would raise both the cap of our base form and of our human masque, so there certainly are reasons to try for it.

googlyeyesultra said:
Main reason I'd consider using a wish is because we may need one anyways to get Perika to Garenhuld, since taking a ship would be slow, trackable, and require multiple stops in which she could be discovered. As long as we're spending a wish to transport someone, might as well make it a two-for, and I think that should be within the realm of possibility for a wish.
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we could always take a relatively cheap ship, bring it just close enough for us to IT to Garenhuld, then teleport there while the ship falls into a star, removing any trace.
 
So I've been thinking about Kakara Style. Less about the mechanical benefits and tricks, and more about how it would actually function as a Style.

For reference, my current understanding of our hoped-for Kakara Style is something like this:

Involved Techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Perfect Multiform, Flight, Instant Transmission, Solar Flare, Kikoho, Shin Kikoho, Genki Dama, (possibly Combat Precognition, possibly Thunder Shock Surprise, possibly Four Witches Technique)
Penalised Techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Duelling], Lethal [All]

Putting aside the mechanical aspects, how does this Style work? What is it trying to do?

The most obvious part is of course that it is designed to work in a team, to the point of having the stylist create team members if none are available. Conversely, it cannot handle being alone very well at all. So the hand-to-hand aspect is all about creating openings for others to act upon, and acting upon openings created by others, to the point of outright eschewing opportunities to capitalise on openings you yourself have made. It could be argued that Combat Precognition would help in taking advantage of openings you haven't personally planned for appearing unexpectedly.

With Flight and to a lesser extent Solar Flare, it also has Tenshinhan's focus on controlling where the stylist is in regards to their opponent - being at range when their opponent would prefer to be up close, and up close when they want to be at range. It then takes this even further with Instant Transmission, making the user even more mobile. But as part of a team, this isn't just about avoiding an enemy's strengths and focusing on their weaknesses, it's also about being sure that the stylist is consistently in position to aid their teammates and again, take advantage of openings that appear. With multiple teammates, being able to get into position for any of them with no notice is crucial.

Solar Flare, Thunder Shock Surprise and to a lesser extent the Four Witches Technique are all about incapacitating the enemy. This builds on the idea of creating openings for others - it's more difficult for stylists to capitalise on these openings themselves than it is for their allies, since they're the ones casting these techniques, though admittedly not impossible.

Finally the Kikoho, Shin Kikoho and Genki Dama all have one thing in common - they are all big damn blasts. These are not quick cheap ki attacks you fire off a dozen of just to create space or hoping to get lucky with - they are a non-negligible time and ki/life force commitment with a commensurate payoff if they connect. In this style, the stylist is relying on having the enemy occupied or incapacitated by an ally to make sure that these attacks connect and are worth the investment. In contrast, a smaller ki attack would almost be squandering the opportunity to use a larger one.

Anyway, that's kind of how I'm currently envisioning the Style. Writing this up was actually helpful in some ways - it convinced me that we don't necessarily need a smaller Ki attack like the Dodonpa as part of our final Style, because it doesn't play to the Style's strengths. (The Dodonpa is still an excellent move for other styles with different philosophies like Tenshinhan Style, and we shouldn't avoid learning it just because it won't be a feature in Kakara Style.) If necessary we could even double down and make smaller Ki attacks a Penalised technique, though I'm not sure about going that far.
 
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That's basically how I'm thinking about Kakara style too. Some minor changes I'd probably make to that setup, though:

Kikoho and Shin Kikoho seem redundant. On Discord, Poptart explained that Shin Kikoho is a little slower to start and a bit weaker, but lets you follow up with repeated Kikohos, and costs less life to do so. To match that planned style, regular Kikoho seems like it fits - we want one really big blast, not lots of fairly big ones.

Some stuff like Flight and Instant Transmission, while obviously good, may or may not make it into the style. It just depends on how much we can cram in and how much other stuff we want to cram in. It's not like we can't use them as non-style techniques if we have to.

Since we're probably starting on overdrive, I'd say that should make it into the style. Turning on ki overdrive when we're firing off one of those really big blasts should be a good way to maximize the damage, and the stamina cost can be limited by only using it for those guaranteed huge shots we're planning on lining up with stuff like allies and Thundershock Surprise.

Obviously, we're not making the style yet, so plans may change, but that's roughly what I'm hoping for right now.
 
googlyeyesultra said:
That's basically how I'm thinking about Kakara style too. Some minor changes I'd probably make to that setup, though:

Kikoho and Shin Kikoho seem redundant. On Discord, Poptart explained that Shin Kikoho is a little slower to start and a bit weaker, but lets you follow up with repeated Kikohos, and costs less life to do so. To match that planned style, regular Kikoho seems like it fits - we want one really big blast, not lots of fairly big ones.

Some stuff like Flight and Instant Transmission, while obviously good, may or may not make it into the style. It just depends on how much we can cram in and how much other stuff we want to cram in. It's not like we can't use them as non-style techniques if we have to.

Since we're probably starting on overdrive, I'd say that should make it into the style. Turning on ki overdrive when we're firing off one of those really big blasts should be a good way to maximize the damage, and the stamina cost can be limited by only using it for those guaranteed huge shots we're planning on lining up with stuff like allies and Thundershock Surprise.

Obviously, we're not making the style yet, so plans may change, but that's roughly what I'm hoping for right now.
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Dropping the Shin Kikoho would probably fit, if we needed to. I'm extremely reluctant to give up Flight - it's basically the most-used skill, as far as I can see - and would prefer not to give up IT as it ties in quite nicely with the whole "making sure you're there to capitalise" thing. Still, it's not an absolute core skill.

I was going to say I don't think we need to put Ki Overdrive into the Style, for the same reason I don't think we'd put Ki Refinement in - it's something we'd use, but not something we'd be planning around. The idea of flickering Ki Overdrive on for big attacks is a good one though so maybe.

Wait, that's basically the same idea as our USSJ-flickering Research idea, isn't it? Flickering on the stamina-draining boost momentarily to increase the damage and avoid most of the stamina drain? Except better, because a) the boost is bigger and b) our PL signature doesn't increase.

I kind of expected us to just hold onto Overdrive at a low level as a desperate trump card, but maybe we'll end up training it properly?
 
I'm doubtful that we'll be able to make it instantaneous to the degree that the USSJ flicker trick would require (since that's like, turn it on mid punch to avoid the speed problem), but I'm picturing more like, we land Thunder Shock Surprise, stunning for a few seconds, then our other bodies go USSJ, ki overdrive, fire kikoho, and then drop both USSJ and overdrive within like five seconds. Not instantaneous, but fast enough to use.
 
@Deathbybunnies I really like the concept of this style.

A few possible modifications

1)First, I don't think we need BOTH the kikoho and shin kikoho. I'd keep only the shin variant, which would allow for a quick series of big strong blasts from three multiform while the fourth is keeping the enemy vulnerable, even with something like a Full Nelson (Goku and Piccolo approve :p ), or with the thunder shock surprise, or even simply by taking the enemy by surprise while it's blinded from the solar flare.

Imagine crushing the enemy from two series of shin kikohos from opposite directions, while it's kept still from a thundershock surprise! We could even have one of the multiform try and teleport our enemy directly in front of the blasts!

It's also more efficient than the standard kikoho, which is always a good thing. and the cheaper cost makes it a possibly good option to hit ki attacks from the side to deviate them when one of the multiform is incapable of dodging.

2) this style would consider mobility something really important. We could then have it being penalized by fighting in small spaces, like spaceships, rings/arenas or buildings. Not sure if it would be worth much though.

3)...well, You already know this, but the mafuba would also be a potentially good option for this. Of course we have not even started to research it, it's not a sure thing that we'll do it, and the style might have too many involved techniques already.

4)If necessary we might want to add a "Ki Projection [All Save explicitly Involved Techniques]."

5)If possible we might want to add ki refinement too, though as long as it's not penalized it's probably not that important.










...Just thought about a possible elite or legendary talent for instant transmission. It's pretty easy, instead of teleporting ourselves we teleport our attacks, as in "we're sent a ki wave that way, and somehow it disappeared and reappeared from behind you (kinda like with Janemba, but teleport instead of portal. Maybe it would be more appropriate for ki spheres than waves though)
googlyeyesultra said:
Kikoho and Shin Kikoho seem redundant. On Discord, Poptart explained that Shin Kikoho is a little slower to start and a bit weaker, but lets you follow up with repeated Kikohos, and costs less life to do so. To match that planned style, regular Kikoho seems like it fits - we want one really big blast, not lots of fairly big ones.
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I disagree, if we manage to learn it I think that Shin Kikoho's efficiency and multiple blasts is worth the slight loss in power. it shouldn't matter that it's a bit slower if we use grapples of the thunder shock to immobilize the enemy after all.

googlyeyesultra said:
Some stuff like Flight and Instant Transmission, while obviously good, may or may not make it into the style. It just depends on how much we can cram in and how much other stuff we want to cram in. It's not like we can't use them as non-style techniques if we have to.

Since we're probably starting on overdrive, I'd say that should make it into the style. Turning on ki overdrive when we're firing off one of those really big blasts should be a good way to maximize the damage, and the stamina cost can be limited by only using it for those guaranteed huge shots we're planning on lining up with stuff like allies and Thundershock Surprise.
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these are good points. It really depends in the end on how much we can cram in the style.

Deathbybunnies said:
I was going to say I don't think we need to put Ki Overdrive into the Style, for the same reason I don't think we'd put Ki Refinement in - it's something we'd use, but not something we'd be planning around. The idea of flickering Ki Overdrive on for big attacks is a good one though so maybe.

Wait, that's basically the same idea as our USSJ-flickering Research idea, isn't it? Flickering on the stamina-draining boost momentarily to increase the damage and avoid most of the stamina drain? Except better, because a) the boost is bigger and b) our PL signature doesn't increase.

I kind of expected us to just hold onto Overdrive at a low level as a desperate trump card, but maybe we'll end up training it properly?
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mh.. there is potential here. Strong kikoho + overcharge + (if being sensed is not a problem) ultra ssj boost (at least until we unlock the ssj2).

I'll call it the "I can't believe it's not Kaioken! technique"!
 
Pittauro said:
@Deathbybunnies I really like the concept of this style.

A few possible modifications

1)First, I don't think we need BOTH the kikoho and shin kikoho. I'd keep only the shin variant, which would allow for a quick series of big strong blasts from three multiform while the fourth is keeping the enemy vulnerable, even with something like a Full Nelson (Goku and Piccolo approve :p ), or with the thunder shock surprise, or even simply by taking the enemy by surprise while it's blinded from the solar flare.

Imagine crushing the enemy from two series of shin kikohos from opposite directions, while it's kept still from a thundershock surprise! We could even have one of the multiform try and teleport our enemy directly in front of the blasts!

It's also more efficient than the standard kikoho, which is always a good thing. and the cheaper cost makes it a possibly good option to hit ki attacks from the side to deviate them when one of the multiform is incapable of dodging.

2) this style would consider mobility something really important. We could then have it being penalized by fighting in small spaces, like spaceships, rings/arenas or buildings. Not sure if it would be worth much though.

3)...well, You already know this, but the mafuba would also be a potentially good option for this. Of course we have not even started to research it, it's not a sure thing that we'll do it, and the style might have too many involved techniques already.

4)If necessary we might want to add a "Ki Projection [All Save explicitly Involved Techniques]."

5)If possible we might want to add ki refinement too, though as long as it's not penalized it's probably not that important.
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1) I can believe that we only really need one of the two Kikohos for what they're going to be used for, but I don't know which I'd prefer. There's valid arguments for either.

2) I'd rather not take mobility Penalisations in a Style based on mobility, but it would make sense if we wanted to for some reason.

3) Actually, I'm not sure the Mafuba would fit particularly well, even if it is a great move. You can't attack the sealed opponent until they're free, so you're not keeping them occupied and vulnerable so much as removing them from the fight temporarily.

4) I'd rather just stick to Penalising Ki Projection [Basic Attacks] if we're going to do that - Kakara loves Ki too much to cut off all the other possibilities, and we'll inevitably end up picking up some other cool thing. Small throwaway Ki attacks are just kind of a waste of an opening though, so we wouldn't want to use them anyway. (It also makes this essentially the anti-Vegeta Style - where Vegeta Style Penalises Team Fighting and Flight and Involves Basic Attacks, we'd Penalise Basic Attacks and Involve Flight and Team Fighting.)
 
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I think our style should have more debuffs/stuns, preferably mass/AoE.
Like as Dezerel used telekinesis. If we (or, at least, Kakara) want to fight non-lethal, we need something to distract other combatants.
Involved Techniques:
1) Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Multiform - duh. And Perfect Multiform is a talent, not a skill. So, I think, Multiform is more correct. Probably, Multiform will be our signature.
2) Flight, Instant Transmission - mobility, simultaneous attacks from different directions.
3) Solar Flare - good AoE debuff.
4) Kikoho or Shin Kikoho - we need at least one Big Boom, and Genki Dama isn't reliable enough to be sure we can use it all the time. What if we will fight with someone in the space, for example? And this is not mentioning the GD's charging time.
That's a 6 technicues already.

I don't sure we should include Genki Dama. We will use it quite rarely, most likely. And we can use it without including to style.

I see, basically, three possible battle patterns (outside of insta-win/insta-loss ones):
1) Bunch of weaklings.
We, most likely, can handle it without style at all. Good to have: Crowd Fighting, AoE debuffs/stuns (like Solar Flare), weak AoE attacks. Why weak? Because we will kill them if use something not too weak. They are weakling, after all.
2) One foe, stronger than us.
We need debuffs/stuns (like Thunder Shock Surprise) to have chance to handle it non lethally. Also, if foe much stronger, it is even more important, because we'll need time to charge Genki Dama. Mafuba will be great for that.
3) Group of equal opponents.
I think our best chance of winning is to separate them and beat one at a time, using numerical advantage. Mafuba would be very useful for this.
 
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Koraan said:
1) Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Multiform - duh. And Perfect Multiform is a talent, not a skill. So, I think, Multiform is more correct. Probably, Multiform will be our signature.
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to other people perfect multiform would be a separate skill, so we might as well write that as signature instead. Also base multiform would not be enough for the style anyway.
 
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