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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Think i like the mix better, though i think the text is a bit long, i can't see a good way to shorten it.

[X] Incinerate QB.

[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Thank her for coming, for being here and calling Kyouko out. She absolutely did help, a lot. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
-[X] We'll see her tomorrow, tell Madoka we said hi!

[X] Mami
-[X] Ask as serious, actual questions: How does she think this went differently from her last discussion with Kyouko? And why does she think it went differently?
--[X] If reasonable: After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
---[X] You're not working miracles when you talk down people she doesn't see a way to talk down. There's not so much a science to it as an art, but dealing with interpersonal problems is a skill that can be learned, a skill that you are learning, a skill that she can learn, a skill that she is learning. It's complicated, not easy. And yet, she put together what she knew about Kyouko, poked around a bit, realized that Kyouko's self-blaming wasn't quite right, pushed on that, and then all of a sudden she was getting at the real problems and solving them, recognizing that Kyouko still thought well of her, vocally disbelieving Kyouko's self-blame... She did really, really well.
//Left unsaid is that this is a situation she's done poorly in previously. That one is clear to her.
----[X] Explain Kyouko's backstory in detail. Answer any questions Mami has. Highlight her self-hatred and make it clear that that self-hatred was the reason why Kyouko left her. Mami *had* to challenge Kyouko on her self-hatred in order to preserve their relationship. There wasn't any other way, not when Kyouko left her *because* of that self-hatred. Make this line actually flow from the last by using it to explain why pushing against Kyouko's self-blame worked.

[X] Cook something for Kyouko, and in the meantime tell Mami Kyouko's story, if she wants to hear it.
-[X] Kyouko agreed to share this with Mami when you discussed the meeting... but you can understand why it was too painful for her.
--[X] Kyouko left, ultimately, because she didn't want to drag Mami down with her - in terms of both hunting and ideals. She thought that Mami deserved better friends than her.
 
All the stuff being said to mami sounds like Sabrina is projecting her own personal growth lessons in people-socializing and empathy-adulting and I love it to bits :V

I have the biggest smile right now at the anime levels of oblivious-protagonist-wholesomeness sabrina is vibing :lol:
 
Thought on talking to Mami about people... maybe just make it like...a conversation? Like we grumble about Kyouko being all Kyoukoish, mention Mami did well. Mami's likely to reply it was thanks to us. We can be like 'no no people are complicated, one does not just social via proxys, 'you did all that'.

Edit: i mean this over 'telling' her about people being hard.

I do wonder how Mami views social. Sabrina tends to view it as...a puzzle. Sabrina wants to know people's motivations, their history and then makes theories on motivations and then choses an action/reply. I doubt Mami views it like that.
 
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@DB_Explorer How about something like this:

[X] Incinerate QB.

[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Thank her for coming, for being here and calling Kyouko out. She absolutely did help, a lot. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
-[X] We'll see her tomorrow, tell Madoka we said hi!

[X] Head home with Mami:
-[X] Discuss the meeting with Mami - how she's feeling, and how and why it went better than their previous meeting.
-[X] As appropriate in conversation, bring up:
--[X] How people hide things. Because they think they need to deal with it alone, or because they feel like they deserve to suffer, or any number of other reasons.
---[X] Picking through all that is hard, but it's not a miracle.
--[X] How tonight was all Mami.
---[X] What she just did helped Kyouko more than everything else you've done until now. Seeing her challenge Kyouko's self-blame was... inspiring.

[X] Cook something for Kyouko, and in the meantime tell Mami Kyouko's story, if she wants to hear it.
-[X] Kyouko agreed to share this with Mami when you discussed the meeting... but you can understand why it was too painful for her.
--[X] Kyouko left, ultimately, because she didn't want to drag Mami down with her - in terms of both hunting and ideals. She thought that Mami deserved better friends than her.
 
I really wish I had the energy to go through Redshirt's condensation in full but, as I don't, I'm just going to expand on my reasoning against plan incinerate.

Part of this is that I don't trust the "kill it!" plan any time it comes up. If Kyuubey is ever going to manipulate us, the easiest way will be by taking advantage of our own proclivities. Killing or assaulting him is something we're demonstrably easy to goad into. If he can ever figure out how to leverage his own death for something... yeah. Though the main version of that I can think of is "sharing his experiences and knowledge with Jyuubey."

Ultimately, though, if we're going to be paranoid and not keep the body, then I see no advantage to destroying Kyuubey's body over... even just plain letting it go. If nothing else I guarantee it's the option absolute least likely to be expected from us, just given our history.

We've already stopped as much as we possibly could have already. If it's inclined to talk Kyouko and Yuma into something it would have another body anyways so there's nothing more we might be able to influence there. If it's inclined to stir the pot at home we can block it the same way as now. This is the first time we've looked for Kyuubey showing up near us suddenly but it should work quite handily until it develops a strategy that doesn't involve coming inside 100 meters. Especially as we have a good inkling as to when and why he shows up now.

The only other action is researching it, which, if we don't want to keep the body around anyways, it strikes me that the most important questions aren't destructive in nature anyways.

[X] Check if there's any magic attached to Kyuubey right now, however faint. Then leave it on a rooftop.

[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Thank her for coming. Her being here helped. It was pretty visible, honestly -- none of the rest of you are really good at calling Kyouko out like that. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
-[X] We'll see her later, tell Madoka we said hi!
[X] Mami
-[X] Ask as serious, actual questions: How does she think this went differently from her last discussion with Kyouko? And why does she think it went differently?
--[X] If reasonable: After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
---[X] You're not working miracles when you talk down people she doesn't see a way to talk down. There's not so much a science to it as an art, but dealing with interpersonal problems is a skill that can be learned, a skill that you are learning, a skill that she can learn, a skill that she is learning. It's complicated, not easy. And yet, she put together what she knew about Kyouko, poked around a bit, realized that Kyouko's self-blaming wasn't quite right, pushed on that, and then all of a sudden she was getting at the real problems and solving them, recognizing that Kyouko still thought well of her, vocally disbelieving Kyouko's self-blame... She did really, really well.
//Left unsaid is that this is a situation she's done poorly in previously. That one is clear to her.
----[X] Explain Kyouko's backstory in detail. Answer any questions Mami has. Highlight her self-hatred and make it clear that that self-hatred was the reason why Kyouko left her. Mami *had* to challenge Kyouko on her self-hatred in order to preserve their relationship. There wasn't any other way, not when Kyouko left her *because* of that self-hatred. Make this line actually flow from the last by using it to explain why pushing against Kyouko's self-blame worked.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Kyouko agreed to share this with Mami when you discussed the meeting... but you can understand why it was too painful for her.
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Click to shrink...
I'd really rather not lie to Mami about this. At most we agreed to a group effort.

Sabrina doesn't like keeping secrets, but she also knows she has to, and sometimes when compensating for her preferences she overcorrects. It's a character flaw we can work on if we recognize it, not something we need to foist the blame off on Kyoko for.
 
The Phoenixian said:
I really wish I had the energy to go through Redshirt's condensation in full but, as I don't, I'm just going to expand on my reasoning against plan incinerate.

Part of this is that I don't trust the "kill it!" plan any time it comes up. If Kyuubey is ever going to manipulate us, the easiest way will be by taking advantage of our own proclivities. Killing or assaulting him is something we're demonstrably easy to goad into. If he can ever figure out how to leverage his own death for something... yeah. Though the main version of that I can think of is "sharing his experiences and knowledge with Jyuubey."
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Click to shrink...
Hm, given what I've noticed about him staying out of things while Oriko kept him in the cat carrier, I think there's some merit to this. We know he's a gestalt consiousness spread across multiple terminals, but if he doesn't know that we know this, he'll expend resources to keep that secret.
Torgamous said:
I'd really rather not lie to Mami about this. At most we agreed to a group effort.

Sabrina doesn't like keeping secrets, but she also knows she has to, and sometimes when compensating for her preferences she overcorrects. It's a character flaw we can work on if we recognize it, not something we need to foist the blame off on Kyoko for.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The plan was to tell Mami what happened, but we didn't work out the details of who would do it or how. I had assumed that the plan was that Mami would hear it in the meeting with Kyoko, and we would be there for moral support on both sides and to intervene in the event a proper fight broke out, which it didn't. I don't think Sabrina screwed up except in the sense of not having hammered out more details with Kyoko prior to the meeting.

I don't think we should lie to Mami, and I'm okay with accepting some of the blame on not doing better.

I still think I prefer the conversation approach in Redshirt Army's vote, so using that as a base. Changes highlighted in yellow:

[X] Dump Kyubey's body on a rooftop.

[X] Sayaka:
-[X] Thank her for coming, for being here and calling Kyouko out. She absolutely did help, a lot. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
-[X] We'll see her tomorrow, tell Madoka we said hi!

[X] Head home with Mami:
-[X] Discuss the meeting with Mami - how she's feeling, and how and why it went better than their previous meeting.
-[X] As appropriate in conversation, bring up:
--[X] How people hide things. Because they think they need to deal with it alone, or because they feel like they deserve to suffer, or any number of other reasons.
---[X] Picking through all that is hard, but it's not a miracle. It's something you can learn and get better at.
--[X] How tonight was all Mami.
---[X] What she just did helped Kyouko more than everything else you've done until now. Seeing her challenge Kyouko's self-blame was... inspiring.

[X] Cook something for Kyouko, and in the meantime tell Mami Kyouko's story, if she wants to hear it.
-[X] Kyouko agreed to Mami hearing this when you discussed the meeting... but you can understand why it was too painful for her. In retrospect, we should have just told Mami before the meeting.
--[X] Kyouko left, ultimately, because she didn't want to drag Mami down with her - in terms of both hunting and ideals. She thought that Mami deserved better friends than her.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Elder Haman on Mar 22, 2020 at 6:58 PM, finished with 152 posts and 25 votes.
  • [X] Incinerate the captive QB unit.
    -[X] Without removing it from storage
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[X] Thank her for coming. Her being here helped. It was pretty visible, honestly -- none of the rest of you are really good at calling Kyouko out like that. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
    -[X] We'll see her later, tell Madoka we said hi!
    [X] Mami
    -[X] Ask as serious, actual questions: How does she think this went differently from her last discussion with Kyouko? And why does she think it went differently?
    --[X] If reasonable: After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
    ---[X] You're not working miracles when you talk down people she doesn't see a way to talk down. There's not so much a science to it as an art, but dealing with interpersonal problems is a skill that can be learned, a skill that you are learning, a skill that she can learn, a skill that she is learning. It's complicated, not easy. And yet, she put together what she knew about Kyouko, poked around a bit, realized that Kyouko's self-blaming wasn't quite right, pushed on that, and then all of a sudden she was getting at the real problems and solving them, recognizing that Kyouko still thought well of her, vocally disbelieving Kyouko's self-blame... She did really, really well.
    ----[X] Explain Kyouko's backstory in detail. Answer any questions Mami has. Highlight her self-hatred and make it clear that that self-hatred was the reason why Kyouko left her. Mami *had* to challenge Kyouko on her self-hatred in order to preserve their relationship. There wasn't any other way, not when Kyouko left her *because* of that self-hatred. Make this line actually flow from the last by using it to explain why pushing against Kyouko's self-blame worked.
    [X] Dump Kyubey's body on a rooftop.
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[X] Thank her for coming, for being here and calling Kyouko out. She absolutely did help, a lot. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
    -[X] We'll see her tomorrow, tell Madoka we said hi!
    [X] Head home with Mami:
    -[X] Discuss the meeting with Mami - how she's feeling, and how and why it went better than their previous meeting.
    -[X] As appropriate in conversation, bring up:
    --[X] How people hide things. Because they think they need to deal with it alone, or because they feel like they deserve to suffer, or any number of other reasons.
    ---[X] Picking through all that is hard, but it's not a miracle. It's something you can learn and get better at.
    --[X] How tonight was all Mami.
    ---[X] What she just did helped Kyouko more than everything else you've done until now. Seeing her challenge Kyouko's self-blame was... inspiring.
    [X] Cook something for Kyouko, and in the meantime tell Mami Kyouko's story, if she wants to hear it.
    -[X] Kyouko agreed to Mami hearing this when you discussed the meeting... but you can understand why it was too painful for her. In retrospect, we should have just told Mami before the meeting.
    --[X] Kyouko left, ultimately, because she didn't want to drag Mami down with her - in terms of both hunting and ideals. She thought that Mami deserved better friends than her.
    [X] Say something to Sayaka/Homura
    - [X] Thank them for being here
    [X] Head home
    [X] Talk to Mami
    - [X] Mami is amazing and brilliant and badass and beautiful and whatever other compliments you can think of in the moment
    - [X] Also you really messed up by not telling her Kyouko's backstory ahead of time and you're very sorry did you mention how pretty Mami is
    [X] Prepare something for Kyouko?
    - [X] Taiyaki?
    [x] Praise Mami.
    [x] Praise Mami.
    -[X] Hugs
    [X] Say something to Sayaka/Homura
    - [X] Thank them for being here
    [X] Tacklehug Mami
    [X] Energetically praise Mami
    [X] Head home
    [X] Continue praising Mami
    [X] Prepare something for Kyouko?
    -[X] Ask Yuma if they've had dinner yet, then make something appropriate depending on her answer
    [X] Say something to Sayaka/Homura
    - [X] Thank them for being here
    -[x] Cleanse offer
    [X] Tacklehug Mami
    [X] Energetically praise Mami
    [X] Head home
    [X] Continue praising Mami
    [X] Say something to Sayaka/Homura
    - [X] Thank them for being here
    [X] Head home
    [X] Talk to Mami
    - [X] Mami is amazing and brilliant and badass and beautiful and whatever other compliments you can think of in the moment
    - [X] Also you really messed up by not telling her Kyouko's backstory ahead of time and you're very sorry did you mention how pretty Mami is
    [X] Prepare something for Kyouko?
    - [X] Taiyaki?
    - [X] Maybe Mami has ideas?
    [x] Null
    [x] RedShirt
    [X] Incinerate QB.
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[X] Thank her for coming, for being here and calling Kyouko out. She absolutely did help, a lot. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
    -[X] We'll see her tomorrow, tell Madoka we said hi!
    [X] Mami
    -[X] Ask as serious, actual questions: How does she think this went differently from her last discussion with Kyouko? And why does she think it went differently?
    --[X] If reasonable: After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
    ---[X] You're not working miracles when you talk down people she doesn't see a way to talk down. There's not so much a science to it as an art, but dealing with interpersonal problems is a skill that can be learned, a skill that you are learning, a skill that she can learn, a skill that she is learning. It's complicated, not easy. And yet, she put together what she knew about Kyouko, poked around a bit, realized that Kyouko's self-blaming wasn't quite right, pushed on that, and then all of a sudden she was getting at the real problems and solving them, recognizing that Kyouko still thought well of her, vocally disbelieving Kyouko's self-blame... She did really, really well.
    ----[X] Explain Kyouko's backstory in detail. Answer any questions Mami has. Highlight her self-hatred and make it clear that that self-hatred was the reason why Kyouko left her. Mami *had* to challenge Kyouko on her self-hatred in order to preserve their relationship. There wasn't any other way, not when Kyouko left her *because* of that self-hatred. Make this line actually flow from the last by using it to explain why pushing against Kyouko's self-blame worked.
    [X] Cook something for Kyouko, and in the meantime tell Mami Kyouko's story, if she wants to hear it.
    -[X] Kyouko agreed to share this with Mami when you discussed the meeting... but you can understand why it was too painful for her.
    --[X] Kyouko left, ultimately, because she didn't want to drag Mami down with her - in terms of both hunting and ideals. She thought that Mami deserved better friends than her.
    [X] Check if there's any magic attached to Kyuubey right now, however faint. Then leave it on a rooftop.
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[X] Thank her for coming. Her being here helped. It was pretty visible, honestly -- none of the rest of you are really good at calling Kyouko out like that. If part of her feels like she didn't, then that part is just wrong.
    -[X] We'll see her later, tell Madoka we said hi!
    [X] Mami
    -[X] Ask as serious, actual questions: How does she think this went differently from her last discussion with Kyouko? And why does she think it went differently?
    --[X] If reasonable: After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
    ---[X] You're not working miracles when you talk down people she doesn't see a way to talk down. There's not so much a science to it as an art, but dealing with interpersonal problems is a skill that can be learned, a skill that you are learning, a skill that she can learn, a skill that she is learning. It's complicated, not easy. And yet, she put together what she knew about Kyouko, poked around a bit, realized that Kyouko's self-blaming wasn't quite right, pushed on that, and then all of a sudden she was getting at the real problems and solving them, recognizing that Kyouko still thought well of her, vocally disbelieving Kyouko's self-blame... She did really, really well.
    ----[X] Explain Kyouko's backstory in detail. Answer any questions Mami has. Highlight her self-hatred and make it clear that that self-hatred was the reason why Kyouko left her. Mami *had* to challenge Kyouko on her self-hatred in order to preserve their relationship. There wasn't any other way, not when Kyouko left her *because* of that self-hatred. Make this line actually flow from the last by using it to explain why pushing against Kyouko's self-blame worked.
Click to expand...
 
Elder Haman said:
When looking at the tally I noticed that there are a bunch of votes from early in the discussion, each with a single vote. Just thought I'd give you an FYI that votes seem to have coalesced around two different plans, in case you are interested in weighing in on which you prefer:
@SaltyWaffles @Jonen C @Raiseth @Torgamous @Muramasa @Delwgun @Jiven @Aranfan
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Click to shrink...

It's basically my protest against striking the Despicable Me pose and starting scheming right after Mami's success, instead of, you know, congratulating her and hugging her.
 
[X] Nerevar

Mostly switching because I've been convinced not to eviscerate Kyubey right this second.
 
Raiseth said:
It's basically my protest against striking the Despicable Me pose and starting scheming right after Mami's success, instead of, you know, congratulating her and hugging her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
[k] Strike the Despicable Me pose.
-[j] "Alright Mami, now that the Kyoko thing is checked off the adjenda it's time for today's next activity. We steal the moon!"


[X] Nerevar
 
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