A thought on confrontation.

Mami and Sabrina sometimes disagree with eachother. We adore Mami, but we also push her, call her out when we think she's being silly, and that doesn't mean we stop caring about eachother. And we're happy when we see Mami doing the same for us, because we recognize it as a sign that our relationship is healthier for it. It's a big part of why we're so fond of her "Oh, Sabrina" expressions of fond exasperation at us. When we see her deferring to us, we get worried because that isn't healthy for her or for our relationship.

That's why we have this line:
Seeing her challenge Kyouko's self-blame was... inspiring.

Because it was exactly the kind of thing we've been pushing her toward, calling out her friends because they're her friends. Engaging in a confrontation because she cares about Kyoko, as an expression of care for Kyoko, even if on the surface she's disagreeing with Kyoko and telling her she's wrong. Even though it looks like something that will push Kyoko away.

Maybe Kaizuki's trying to get at something like that? Either way, we'll have other chances to talk to Mami even if we don't say everything we want to right this instant. Even if there are mistakes and inefficiencies here, it is not the end of the world. We're still half-celebrating how well this went as we're disecting the details with her.
 
[x] Hug Mumi
[x] Praise Mumi

Now that this has a chance of winning, however small...

This isn't me saying fuck you to all effort people spend on these votes, I do understand why some of the votes are sometimes so large and unwieldy as a function of what they are trying to convey.

However, I empathically disagree with this approach at the moment.

We aren't some kinda social interface between Mami and the rest of the world, you know.

As she demonstrated in this very same update, she's capable of interacting with people on her own, even as they try to push her away and hit her emotionally where it hurts the most.
[] Head home with Mami:
-[] Discuss the meeting with Mami - how she's feeling, and how and why it went better than their previous meeting.
-[] As appropriate in conversation, bring up:
--[] How difficult it can be really grasp interpersonal relationships. People all have their own ways of thinking, their own motives, and their own things that they hide from others.
---[] Picking through all that is hard, but it's not a miracle. It's something you can learn and get better at.
--[] How tonight was all Mami.
---[] What she just did helped Kyouko more than everything else you've done until now. Seeing her challenge Kyouko's self-blame was... inspiring.

I consider this part and the corresponding part in Kaizuki's vote, namely this

[] Mami
-[] Ask as serious, actual questions: How does she think this went differently from her last discussion with Kyouko? And why does she think it went differently?
--[] If reasonable: After giving her time to think/respond: you pretty much didn't do anything there, except to confirm what Mami had already recognized and to act as moral support. Frankly, from your perspective, you'd say that things were going roughly the same as last time for a while, and then Mami did something different from last time and suddenly things started going right.
---[] You're not working miracles when you talk down people she doesn't see a way to talk down. There's not so much a science to it as an art, but dealing with interpersonal problems is a skill that can be learned, a skill that you are learning, a skill that she can learn, a skill that she is learning. It's complicated, not easy. And yet, she put together what she knew about Kyouko, poked around a bit, realized that Kyouko's self-blaming wasn't quite right, pushed on that, and then all of a sudden she was getting at the real problems and solving them, recognizing that Kyouko still thought well of her, vocally disbelieving Kyouko's self-blame... She did really, really well.
//Left unsaid is that this is a situation she's done poorly in previously. That one is clear to her.
----[] Explain Kyouko's backstory in detail. Answer any questions Mami has. Highlight her self-hatred and make it clear that that self-hatred was the reason why Kyouko left her. Mami *had* to challenge Kyouko on her self-hatred in order to preserve their relationship. There wasn't any other way, not when Kyouko left her *because* of that self-hatred. Make this line actually flow from the last by using it to explain why pushing against Kyouko's self-blame worked.

To be unnecessary, condescending and really, really not appropriate to the moment.

We don't fucking need to explain Kyouko to Mami.

She knows her better than we do, frankly, as she. Just. Demonstrated. Right. This. Very. Update. Without our metaknowledge, she went and just punched through Kyouplomacy, her problem was never Social, her problem was being actively deceived by everyone involved because they either didn't want to disappoint her, didn't want her to judge them over the perceived perch of moral high ground, or were the fucking Incubator. It destroyed her self-confidence, and now that someone believes in her unconditionally, she's taking it back with gusto.

The only thing that will be necessary is to explain why exactly Kyouko thinks she killed her family, without any inappropriate buildup as we try to psychoanalyze her all the way down to her grandparents, and how their unwholesome love of soy sauce is one of the cornerstone reasons for Kyouko's problems now.

In moments like these I just remember that vote when we told Mami that we appreciate her for being a strong and competent magical girl, completely missing the point that Mami wanted to be appreciated as a person and considers Megucaing as a very barb reason to be appreciated for.

That's why I voted for these simple actions that other voters assume Brinapilot will probably do by herself, ( and they are probably right ) and that's why I'm voting for them now. The point right now is to, you know, hug Mami and congratulate her, and not to take her for granted.

That's it, I guess.
 
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Idea for a vote tweak... no idea on wording. It's related to how the issue I brought up with Redshirt about lecturing Mami being bad along with Raiseth's concerns.

Also it might have us hug Mami.

So rather then doing something like a formal after action report or review. We get home, out of view of Kyouko or whatever works and just... relax. Sabrina mentions how she's glad this worked out, how meeting Kyouko worked out. Mention how she would have not be able to pull it off, (because OOC our votes literally stalled out on what to do and went with 'let Mami handle it'), social is hard. Then let the conversation flow largely under Brinapilot with some notes in the vote on any key points people want to bring up in case the conversation takes a wrong turn or something.

This would allow the conversation to flow more naturally. Rather than being some formalish discussion of what occurred its more like the discussion people have after a friendly game where they talk about how they won (or lost) and where to go for dinner.
 
Riiiight.

[X] Hug Mumi
[X] Praise Mumi
[X] Thank Homura and Sayaka for coming and for being there, not only for Mami, but for yourself and for Kyouko, too.
[X] Head home
-[X] Explain Kyouko's story. Apologize for not telling about it earlier, you forgot. Your brain damage is acting up again.
--[X] But seriously, you need to start writing these things down or something.
-[X] Any insights on how it went down, all in all?
-[X] ... What would Kyouko prefer for dinner, anyway?

Sound about right?
Edit: thought about it, some more, and one small addition.
 
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[X] Hug Mumi
[X] Praise Mumi
[X] Thank Homura and Sayaka for coming and for being there, not only for Mami, but for yourself and for Kyouko, too.
[X] Head home
-[X] Explain Kyouko's story. Apologize for not telling about it earlier, you forgot. Your brain damage is acting up again.
--[X] But seriously, you need to start writing these things down or something.
-[X] Any insights on how it went down, all in all?
-[X] ... What would Kyouko prefer for dinner, anyway?

It's me, I am the flip flapper. Another thought to clutter up Sabrinas head is if there are ways to become magical girls that don't involve being a lich or being able to become a Witch. Like if a Wraith cube was used to link to ones soul. It could have consequences, such as lacking the natural instincts of a meguca and having to learn everything the hard way. Obviously a question for after dewitching is a success and we find a way to replace clear seeds.

One thought is creating wraith cubes, and finding ways to enhance other grief manipulators abilities though training/showing them how we do grief manipulation/making enchantments that help them get that last leg up. This would let us outsource our powers, even if we have to be the source of the enhancements. we are gonna have to create a system that does not rely on us existing if we ever want to get things truly safe for meguca.
 
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If Mami wants to hear it. It's possible that she'd rather hear it from Kyoko or not at all.

She'll have an opportunity to tell us in the start, I guess, because I don't see how we could tell her about it without her consent, but I'll think about how to edit it in.

Edit: how about it?
Edit2: yeah, do it if Mami agrees part is redundant and silly.
[X] Hug Mumi
[X] Praise Mumi
[X] Thank Homura and Sayaka for coming and for being there, not only for Mami, but for yourself and for Kyouko, too.
[X] Head home
-[X] Offer to explain Kyouko's story. Apologize for not telling about it earlier, you forgot. Your brain damage is acting up again.
--[X] But seriously, you need to start writing these things down or something.
-[X] Any insights on how it went down, all in all?
-[X] ... What would Kyouko prefer for dinner, anyway?
 
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-[] Offer to explain Kyouko's story. Apologize for not telling about it earlier, you forgot. Your brain damage is acting up again.
 
Office Complex pt. 34
"Yeah," you murmur to Mami. "Let's go home. And... Homura, Sayaka." You beam at your friends over Mami's shoulder, arms still wrapped snugly around her.

"Mmm?" Sayaka says. She grins briefly at you.

"Thanks for being here, both of you," you say. "It helped." Mami nods wordlessly, hair brushing over your shirt as she refuses to let go of you.

"Ahh, c'mon, how could I say no?" Sayaka asks, rolling her eyes. Homura nods, amethyst eyes distant.

"Just accept the gratitude," you say, matching Sayaka with your own rolled eyes. "Seriously. Being here helped. I don't think anyone else could've really called her out like that, and it worked. So... thanks." You grin, and then blink as your thoughts jumping to something niggling at the back of your mind. "Also, weren't you going home? Earlier, I mean."

Sayaka shrugs easily. "Changed my mind," she says. "And... I know I can't talk about this stuff with, uh, basically anyone, buuuut doing homework? That's better than being alone in my room."

She pauses, and makes a disgusted face as if she can't believe she'd just said that.

"Yeah," she says, shrugging. "So I stopped by home and then went to Madoka's instead."

Mami makes a soft noise. Her trembling's eased out a little, but you can still feel her soaking into your embrace, and no wonder - the encounter was draining for you, just from the tension and emotion. You rub her back gently, trying to work out the knots.

"Well... I guess we're done here," you say. "Oh, yeah, a quick cleanse for everyone, yeah? Right, there we go. Say hi to Madoka for me, and see you tomorrow?"

"Mmhm!" Sayaka says, waving. "Coming, Homura?"

"Yes," Homura says. She nods at you, solemn and measured in a way that's almost a bow without being more than a slight inclination of her head. And in that one gesture...

Acknowledgement, because you've done it. Happiness, just a hair, because she's happy for you. And gladness, because this is one more obstacle. One more battle won in her long war: the foundations of the stage settling just that little bit more for the grand showdown to come. Because Mami has always been a pivotal part of the scene in Mitakihara, because Mami was, and is Homura's friend.

Maybe you're reading too much into it, but you've gotten pretty good at understanding Homura.

So you smile at her, and as they leave, you gather Mami up in your arms with a quick 'hup!', delighting in the surprised little squeak you startle from her, and leap for the roofs. Mami cottons on quickly, looping her arms around your neck to steady herself as you bound across Mitakihara.

Your Grief nanofog spreads out ahead of you, a perpetual cloud bank flooding out ahead of you. It lets you feel your path, safe and sure and certain so that you don't have to risk dropping Mami - you could walk on air, if it came to an awkwardly placed building. Detection and utility and offense and defense all in one, and speaking of detection, you'd picked up a Kyuubey earlier.

Not dead or defunct, apparently, just totally limp as if playing dead. You can sense the faintest traces of magic in it still.

A second's worth of internal debate: to crush, to destroy, to incinerate the body, or not. Certainly you don't want to keep it around for much longer, but... ultimately, you choose to simply toss it none-too-gently at a rooftop. It lies still for a moment, and then stirs and scampers out of your range.

The city glows beneath you. Headlights and streetlights combine into luminous rivers, distant shopfronts and building-sized displays and signs casting enough light to drown out the stars. Traffic and people and people throng the streets, the noise a low rumble rivalled only by the roll of thunder overhead, lightning streaking briefly through the clouding night sky.

Looks like you're due some rain tonight.

When you get home, she's still curled up against you, reluctant to let go, so you simply drop onto the sofa with Mami still in your arms. She makes another soft, indecipherable noise, shuffling around to get comfortable, which apparently means cuddled as close to you as physically possible.

Not that you have any objection to that, of course. You smile at her, brushing the hair back from her face and simply... exist, content to let her regain her equilibrium and to let yourself relax. In the back of your mind, you can still feel your nanofog, spread out around you. Nowhere near as effective as it could be, out of respect of other people's privacy - but enough, you hope, to detect Kyuubey should it attempt to intrude again.

You divert a sliver of attention and nanofog to flooding the kitchen. You find the kettle and a teapot and a few cups and, of course, the tea. Chamomile feels perfect for the mood, you suspect.

Hah.

Utility indeed.

"How are you feeling?" you ask, after a few minutes.

"Drained," Mami murmurs, shaking her head. "Exhausted."

You laugh quietly. "I'm drained, and I was just... standing there," you say. "Yeah, I completely understand."

"Sabrina-" Mami shakes her head, one hand closing over yours in a tight, urgent grip as her eyes look up at you. "I couldn't have done it without you. Knowing you were there gave me the strength to push on, and... it... it made me angry, when she taunted you, or tried to deflect things."

"I..." You blink, and then laugh, a little. "Thank you, Mami. But that's not really what I meant - I just... I was there to support you. I knew that, going in, it was your fight, and even if I could have stepped in, you had to reach out and take this. What I meant was that even just standing there to support you was exhausting, emotionally, but you... you were in the thick of it, and feeling drained is perfectly reasonable."

"Oh," Mami says. "I..." She lifts her head to smile at you. "Still. Thank you, Sabrina. This is... this is everything."

"Maybe," you say, smiling, and walk your fingers through Mami's hair. You talk over the whistle of the kettle from the kitchen even as you pull it off the stove to cool for a moment. "But Mami, tonight was all you. I set it up. Homura was there, and Sayaka, and so was I, but... ultimately, you did this. You know that, right?"

"I couldn't have done it without you," Mami murmurs. "It... it wouldn't have happened without you, I... I had no idea how to reach out for that first step, the meeting."

"Mmm," you hum quietly, twining a lock of Mami's hair around your finger, sunlight caught and spun into soft curls. "I... I facilitated. We supported you. But it was your effort that brought it over the finishing line, you know? You did it, and that's..."

You huff, letting her hair spring back.

"You were amazing, Mami," you say. "I... you were. You were brave and strong and you... you got it. You didn't... you didn't really have much information about Kyouko, right? And yet you figured it out, and you managed to get her to agree to come over."

"If I was brave, then it was because I knew you were there for me," Mami murmurs. She interlaces her fingers with yours, squeezing. "Homura and Sayaka, too. If I was strong, then that strength came from you. And Kyouko..." She sighs. "She... she really hasn't changed all that much, but she... she hates herself, now. I can only guess as to why, but..."

"I could tell you," you say quietly. "If you want to hear the story. I'd meant to tell you, before this, but I just completely forgot to, and that's my fault. But beyond that, Mami, well... If I gave you strength, it's because you inspire the best in me. And you were inspiring today, facing Kyouko."

Mami giggles, humour warming her features from the cold of exhausted emotion. "We can't keep attributing our successes to each other, Sabrina."

"Yes we can," you say, and match her giggles with a pleased grin. "We help each other become better. That's what a relationship is. And right now, Mami, I am praising you because you did something amazing today."

"I... alright," Mami say, snuggling against you and laying her head against your collarbone with a quiet, pleased sigh. "I... I think I can believe that, but only if you admit that you had a share of the credit in allowing this to happen."

"I can live with that," you say. "And... Mami?"

"Mmm?" she says.

You blink, and purse your lips. "Hold that thought," you say. "Something more important: tea?"

Mami blinks, and then laughs, sitting up properly. You steady her with an arm around her waist.

"Well, if you insist," she says. "I thought that that was what you were doing."

"Chamomile," you say, floating the teapot and teacups from the kitchen. "Freshly steeped."

"That sounds perfect," Mami says. A thoughtful expression crosses her face as you pour out the tea, and as you pass her a cup, she continues with rather more hesitance. "Do... do you think we should prepare something for Kyouko?"

"I was thinking about that, but... you tell me," you say. "Do you think she'd appreciate that?"

Mami starts to worry at her lower lip, then seems to notice what she's doing, and switches to sipping her tea. She closes her eyes briefly in contentment, before reopening them and nodding firmly.

"A cake, I think," she decides. "Large enough that we can keep some for tomorrow. It... would be better if we had some leftovers, but we did finish all the stew."

"Leftovers?" you say.

"She always was an odd balance of, ah, shameless about food but still prideful," Mami says. "She wouldn't like it if we did something specially for her, like we pitied her, but if it's something general..."

"Makes sense," you say. "And see? You've got this, Mami. You do."

"I suppose," Mami says, taking another sip of tea. "Only with your help."

"You'll always have me," you say. You take a sip of tea, your free hand finding Mami's. "So we'll handle it together."

"Alright," Mami says.

You spend the next few minutes drinking the tea in a comfortable silence, Mami ducking herself under your arm and only leaving to pour the both of you refills. You savour the floral, vaguely honey-like fragrance of the tea, soothing and mellow, and the warmth that pools in your belly and radiates comfort much as having Mami by your side does.

Thunder rumbles outside. You can feel the pressure dropping, too - it's probably going to rain all night, and you really hope Kyouko's coming. She'd probably find shelter in some hotel room if she doesn't, but... well, you hope Kyouko's coming, more for her own sake and Mami's sake than because of the rain.

"What was the other thing, Sabrina?" Mami asks, at length.

"Mmm," you temporize. You only continue after another minute, forcing your thoughts into some semblance of order.

"This... the talk with Kyouko wasn't special," you say. "And I'm not... I know, Mami. Kyouko was, is important. She's an important friend, and bringing her back means a lot to you. I know that."

Mami nods, squeezing a little closer to you.

"But this... it wasn't a miracle," you say. "It was hard work, on your part. I know that I had a part in setting it up, and that was hard too - I'm not really... good at this kind of thing." You grin, a touch sheepish, and a touch amused. "I know what you're going to say, but really I'm not. I just had a lot of advantages."

You take a breath.

"It's a skill," you say. "Much like any other. To, to understand people, relationships, and what brings them together and tears them apart, and... how we all think, and our motives, and all that."

"I... I still don't understand why Kyouko l-left," Mami murmurs. "I... she hates herself, I saw that much. I don't care, and I hope she understood that, but... why?"

You sigh.

"It's an ugly story," you say. "But ultimately, she didn't want to drag you down. She thought you deserved to have better friends than her."

"B-but-" Mami's expression crumples. Alarmed, you pull her into a hug, abandoning your teacup to Grief and tugging hers away. "That dummy. I don't... I wouldn't have cared. Never."

"I know, Mami," you say, rubbing her back gently, soothingly. "I know. She knows that, and... she thought that you were too good to associate with someone like her, you know?"

"She wasn't," Mami murmurs. "She never was."

"People are complicated," you say, huffing a faint laugh. "Understanding them is complicated and difficult."

"I..." You can feel Mami take a deep breath. "Alright."

She stands, and offers her hand to you, smiling. "Let's go bake that cake, and... Help me understand?"

Without hesitation, you take her hand, smiling.

[X] Explain Kyouko's story and motivations to Mami
- [] Any specific points? (Write-in)


=====​

The next post will take you through to the next morning, hopefully.
 
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Mmm, let's see
[Q] She Wished people would listen to her Dad's sermons
-[Q] Apparently, they were so boring the Wish couldn't find any other way than brainwashing his flock.
--[Q] When he found out, he went nuts. Called her a witch, which is just wrong, I'm the teenage Witch here!
[Q] Kyouko had hots for you at the time, and she didn't want her crush to see the whole clusterfuck her life had become, so she picked an issue you would violently disagree on and ran with it. Like scissors.
 
[X] Explain Kyouko's story and motivations to Mami
-[X] Make sure to mention your view that if anyone should be assigned guilt for what happened to Kyouko it should be Kyubey.
-[X] Apply comforting contact and hugs as needed.
 
*taps fingers*

Yeah, that worked well enough. The point got across and that's arguably all that matters...

[X] Explain Kyouko's story and motivations to Mami
-[X] Highlight Kyouko's interactions (TDS) with Mami at the time this was going on and explain what parts of the story coincided with them.

She stands, and offers her hand to you, smiling. "Let's go bake that cake, and... Help me understand?"

--[X] Examine with Mami (because she's likely to know better than you) what Kyouko was thinking during those interactions. What could Mami have done better? And what should she have done differently, *not* knowing Kyouko's story?

Edit: I do have more
 
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Do i actually have to come in here and look at this

*groans*

you write 3k of essay while also hammering on your college work for the entire week after the past month of working 12/7+, write a vote, get lightbulb spammed, and then here you are trying to just take a damn weekend off and you can't.

I was trying to work with redshirt on this stuff, and then I just ran out of gas, and now here we are doing whatever the fuck I can't even bring myself to read.

I'm gonna be honest: it might be unfair of me, but I don't actually appreciate the outcome.

I really, genuinely, do not actually appreciate the outcome.

Right, so, typically when I write something calling myself unfair what it really means is "my God I'm going to have to apologize for this in the morning", and this is no different.

I have no right to ask people to refrain from making votes or editing votes or etcetera. That is the business of this thread. Whatever people come up with in my absence, my lack of input is on me alone.

That said... I think I have to put some context on this.

Immediately after writing that "goo night" last night, I fell asleep on a sofa in a heavily lit room with my legs awkwardly bent over the side, because I was too tired to get up and walk five feet to my bed. I woke up an hour later to struggle through a shower where I almost fell over at least ten different times, then somehow staggered to my bed to fall asleep.

I woke up 40m ago. I slept 9-10 hours. I'm still tired. Sure as fuck feel better than I did, though.

The day before that I think I got 7:30. It just... It's been a while since I've been so completely dead. It... It wasn't nice. It hurt.

It made it... Hard, to keep up with things. And I... I thought I could get away with not doing so. Which, well, which culminated in, of course, things going places without my input (duh!). And then I... Panicked, yes. My concerns were not, I think, unwarranted on examination, but anybody could tell that the way I raised them was unacceptable.

I apologize for that.

@Redshirt Army: you expressed to me that you were livid at me for not bringing up that issue while we were going over the vote. I'll be honest, when I told you that "this is starting to get somewhere i'd actually feel comfortable voting for it", what I was doing was eying that block and going, "man, whatever issue is in that if we fix it we're basically done." Then I just fell apart. I'll say it again: I failed you and I'm sorry.

@Nerevar: on examination your edits were improvements and your handling of this has been exemplary (despite my attempts to irritate all sane denizens of the thread). Thank you, and my apologies for any, uh... Negative effects of being in the vicinity of a crazed, angry me.

*Hugs*
 
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thought guys... for telling the story to Mami... lets just tell the story. No biases, no 'its totes Kyuubey's fault'. Just explain what each person did and why they did it so long as said why is not guess work. No assumptions of motive, no accusations on anyone.

Treat Mami as someone who can make their own conclusions, trust that those conclusions will be the [to Sabrina's PoV] correct ones. If she asks for our opinion thats one thing... but putting sidelines into said discussion feels... disrespectful in a way like we don't trust Mami to think for herself. Discussing the matter after everyone has all the facts is one thing but trying to discuss it while one side lacks all the facts is a poor power dynamic.

Kaizuki's vote seems the best in that regard.
 
[X] Explain Kyouko's story and motivations to Mami
- [X] Explain the events without assigning blame, or attaching your own opinions to the matter. Explain the facts, all the facts.
- [X] Ensure Mami maintains a proper reference to when events are occuring so she can track when her meetings with Kyouko conicide with parts of the story
--[X] After telling the story talk to Mami about what she thinks, now is the time to offer your own opinions. Ask her what she thinks Kyouko was thinking given she knows Kyouko better then you.
 
[Q] Explain Kyouko's story, but claim ignorance on her motivation. The girl loves food, the girl also has tried her damndest to lose any possibility of access to Mami's cooking. She's a self-contradictory enigma impervious to any kind of analysis.
 
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