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I'm down for buying an earthing rod and a couple of spells (either scrolls or lectures) to work on during slow turns. Didn't Master Reggie say we should get Illusion down? We really should, that thing's amazing.

If we are considering buying earthing rods and spell scrolls to work on, given the continual expenditures being pushed here, we need to know how much money to set aside for the Penthouse, as soon as possible.

To be honest, if we want to keep spending at very high rates - and if the current leading Library vote wins, I can expect a lot more indulgence/meme spending votes to go through in the future, draining Mathilde's current funds at a surprisingly fast rate - already, we are liquidating 25% of the Karag Nar windfall on a library, 30% of which goes to trivialities. It won't surprise me if your proposal for scrolls and Earthing rods and other enchantment tools spiral into other amusing purchases yet again (if it happens once, it can easily happen again), and another 25% of the Karag Nar earnings are liquidated next turn.

As that the Penthouse is a multi-turn expenditure endeavor, there's a very real likelihood Mathilde would run out of funds before getting the tower that she wants. If that's the case, we need to consider what kind of penthouse we want to build, how many GCs and Favors that would entail, and then set aside those GCs and Favors. Because if we don't, I get the sense we will eventually hit a huge bottleneck with whatever infrastructure upgrades we might want to make. Yes, we are earning 200GC from our dividends, but do remember, we will probably run out at this rate in four turns, while our dividends still go to paying down the Stirland debt.

I apologize if I sound abit confrontational, but I'd be much more assured spending money this freely, if costing estimates for our planned Karag Nar facilities can be produced, to give us an idea of how freely we can actually be spending. I imagine there are multiple possible iterations of the Karag Nar penthouse, which makes that task tricky, but I'd like to at least see a budget for the Karak Nar penthouse. If there's none, I'm very uncomfortable with any other huge expenditure turns like this one, and I suspect that expenditure votes are also going to get very heated in subsequent turns.

Get that penthouse budget, and set it aside. It'd make it easier to past expenditure votes down the line, especially if we have a clearer idea of how that would affect other incoming expenditures in future turns, as the penthouse is a prime example of. Without that, the pool of voters that voted for no purchases for the library this turn are likely going to keep contesting future turn expenditure votes - more so now 25% on the Library seems to be winning.

@BoneyM Since it seems that the Karak Nar penthouse/tower needs to be funded over multiple turns, is there any way to budget a sum of money to keep aside for the penthouse construction ahead of time? Given that expenditure votes for 25% of the Karak Nar windfall seems to be gaining quite alot of traction right now, it might make it easier for less divisive expenditure votes to be marshaled if some of that windfall was earmarked away to the Penthouse, removing one source of (solvable ) contention to generous expenditure votes.

Also, are there any potential personal spending opportunities on matters such as the Ranaldian Tavern-Shrine, or on Undumgi affairs or on Karaz Ankor activities should be aware about ahead of time, if we are considering splurging on our windfall quickly as possible?


Thanks.
 
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I'm not a die-hard share no opinion on what to do with the armor campaigner, but I feel like advising the Dwarves on a matter that is primarily about Dwarven politics is outside of our area of competence twice over (Diplo is our worst stat AND we're only just really beginning to pick up actual information about their internal politics). Between that and the fact that as far as the Grey Order and Imperium (who we owe more than a bit of loyalty to both for moral and practical reasons) are concerned a major part of our job here is to avoid causing messes so that they can reap the benefits of the dwarves as a whole seeing humans as better allies, I do see staying out of that discussion as a reasonable choice.

The argument that it's primarily about dwarf politics is a large part of the problem. Why should it be? Why shouldn't Belegar also be considering the impact that the decision will have on his halfling and human subjects and on potential halfling and human immigrants?

It's Mathilde's job as both Learning advisor and the one non-dwarf on the council to raise these other factors for consideration, even if she does so purely in private.

He has a dwarf diplomat on the council to press the opposite view. That needs a counterbalance.
 
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[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Oswald Oswaldson, Imperial veteran
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.
[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Romance Novels, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Romance Novels, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons. Brettonian Texts: Extensive Romance Novels. Tilean Texts: Extensive Romance Novels.
[X] [ENCHANTMENT] No purchase.

Seeing all the discussion going around, I guess I'll change some of my votes since some of parts of it made good points regarding it. I also like how the rune and armor vote synergize with one another. As a reward for not only Mathilde's achievements, but also a symbol of K8P future.
 
The argument that it's primarily about dwarf politics is the entire problem. Why should it be? Why shouldn't Belegar also be considering the impact that the decision will have on his halfling and human subjects and on potential halfling and human immigrants?
I just don't agree those dimensions apply here, in any significant way, in this narrow case.
 
Advanced Morrite Lore: You know the secrets no Priest of Morr should have ever put to paper. +1 Learning
First Secret of Dhar: Dhar is inherently unstable, everyone knows that. What they don't know is how to turn Dhar against itself. You do. And now you'll never not know it.
Second Secret of Dhar: Dhar could be made more unstable. A tiny nudge in just the right way and Dhar unravels in just the right way to unravel more Dhar, and so on until nothing remains.

Look at the new character sheet additions. We just hit Learning 24.
 
It's Dhar. It's bad for reasons beyond morale. Its nature is evil, and only evil can come of it. If you think different from that then you're wrong, and you should really start knowing better.
Did you perhaps mean something like 'moral decay' when you said this, then?
No seriously that's horrible. This ulgu necromancy would, no matter its form, be as bad as necromancy in moral impact. I can't believe that people really want to go through with it.
Because I was attempting to address what I thought was your point.
If we are considering buying earthing rods and spell scrolls to work on, given the continual expenditures being pushed here, we need to know how much money to set aside for the Penthouse, as soon as possible.
Those things cost College Favor (2 and 1, respectively), not gold. Very little overlap with either books or the penthouse.
 
So I've been thinking about the Liber Mortis and the Frederick Van Hall, specifically how his book passed to his kin intact. it is said that after his apprentice murdered him Van Hall's ghost lead a party of knights back into his keep to avenge himself on his apprentice. And that got me wondering, why would those knights follow the shade of a dead necromancer? Might not one of them have known him, perhaps even been related to him?

Considering Van Hall was fighting against the Skaven at that time it isn't unlikely that some people knew that and appreciated him for it despite the necromancy.

[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a welcome addition to the multispecies community of Karak Eight Peaks
[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant
[X] [ARMOUR] Make no recommendation.


[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Romance Novels, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Romance Novels, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons. Brettonian Texts: Extensive Romance Novels. Tilean Texts: Extensive Romance Novels.
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword

[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons


Edit: I'll toss my hat in favour of the expenses but not in favour of poking the Dawi about the armor. It is their armor - let Belegar and his piety advisor decide what to do with it.

To be honest, if we want to keep spending at very high rates - and if the current leading Library vote wins, I can expect a lot more indulgence/meme spending votes to go through in the future, draining Mathilde's current funds at a surprisingly fast rate - already, we are liquidating 25% of the Karag Nar windfall on a library, 30% of which goes to trivialities. It won't surprise me if your proposal for scrolls and Earthing rods and other enchantment tools spiral into other amusing purchases yet again (if it happens once, it can easily happen again), and another 25% of the Karag Nar earnings are liquidated next turn.

As that the Penthouse is a multi-turn expenditure endeavor, there's a very real likelihood Mathilde would run out of funds before getting the tower that she wants. If that's the case, we need to consider what kind of penthouse we want to build, how many GCs and Favors that would entail, and then set aside those GCs and Favors. Because if we don't, I get the sense we will eventually hit a huge bottleneck with whatever infrastructure upgrades we might want to make. Yes, we are earning 200GC from our dividends, but do remember, we will probably run out at this rate in four turns, while our dividends still go to paying down the Stirland debt.

It is quite likely that spending will plummet once the main topics of research will have books for them.

Mathilde has a steady stream of income and more importantly she's not supposed to be sitting on a hoard. Not long term anyways - a short nap after a battle is ok, having thousands of gold lying around for years is, according to the Grey College not so ok. Likewise Mathilde going out of her way to massively invest is also a big no-no, bringing the EIC to Karak Eight Peaks is just about the maximum possible without raising eyebrows.

So what's left is spending. Not spending everything but spending a large enough chunk of money so she can say she's following Grey College strictures... with only a relatively small sum (~1000 GC) held in reserve for rainy days.
 
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Those things cost College Favor (2 and 1, respectively), not gold. Very little overlap with either books or the penthouse.

Even then, I'm very certain we'd see more "for fun" spending votes offered next turn, that could easily drain 25% of the Karag Nar windfall as it has this turn - and this vote has shown strong appetite in this thread for such expenditures. I suspect we'd have gone through our Karag Nar silver before our penthouse is halfway done.



It is quite likely that spending will plummet once the main topics of research will have books for them.

Do keep in mind - the biggest objection weren't the books on research, they were the books of romance, including romance books in languages Mathilde is not literate in, for being "the kind of wasteful spending rich nobles with too much money would indulge in".

I'm sure the thread will find new and innovative ways to spend 25% of the windfall again over the next three turns. Forgive me if I don't share your optimism about plummeting net expenditures. Things like the Ranaldian tavern shrine may well generate new spending opportunities, and I foresee alot of our money going to the penthouse depending on how much expansion/expenditure can be put into it every turn. An information network, if we go for it also would cost money.
 
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Did you perhaps mean something like 'moral decay' when you said this, then?
Because I was attempting to address what I thought was your point.
I can see where the confusion came from, but no, I meant that its effects would be evil and cause evil, not make people into evil people (though it would do that too).
 
You know it occurs me that with us spending so much on books, it seems prudent to expand the EIC into the book delivery trade. We'll probably run out of topics in the empire and will soon need to look into getting books out from Ulthuan.

@BoneyM how much dwarf favor/money would it take to have that dwarf merchant introduce us to his contacts and help corner that market or even simply expanding into Marienburg?
 
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Haven't caught up. Feel free to @ me if you think I missed something important that might affect my vote.

Was initially against a 25 DF weapon, but it both fits the narrative to reforge an old artifact that was considered lost and then found, and an extremely rare opportunity to go for the absolute top of the line.

I still worry about it either being rarely used or affecting the narrative in an uninteresting way in the future, but not enough to vote against it.


[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[X] [RUNE] A 25 favour weapon to commemorate Mathilde's part the in retaking of Karak Eight-Peaks.
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Oswald Oswaldson, Imperial veteran

[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons.
 
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@BoneyM, if "Make no recommendation" wins, will Mathilde request the sword after Belegar has already decided what to do with the armour? Also, would a collaboration with the Stewardship advisor count as an EIC action if the focus was on figuring out how the EIC and the Karak could best benefit each other?

It's Dhar. It's bad for reasons beyond morale. Its nature is evil, and only evil can come of it. If you think different from that then you're wrong, and you should really start knowing better.

Yeah well sometimes the lesser evil is all you've got. See: Frederick Van Hal. Did he fuck up Sylvannia? Sure. But I'd take one out of twelve provinces getting fucked up over twelve out of twelve provinces. That doesn't mean we throw Dhar around willy nilly, of course. Sometimes, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Or we would if the thread ever felt like being cool.
 
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I finally give up on reading all the posts and am skipping the last week and a half of discussion. Which is four hundred and some pages.

Hopefully I will manage to keep up now.

Anything critical I might be missing?
 
Anything critical I might be missing?

Many of those 400 pages revolve around extensive arguments over very closely fought votes that already have been settled. If you want to participate, start from the latest trademark, and check the tally for which choices are currently neck to neck with one another and therefore likely points of current contention.
 
I'm sure the thread will find new and innovative ways to spend 25% of the windfall again over the next three turns.

We should be at most keeping 10% of the windfall in reserve.

Let's keep in mind that even 1000 GC is a very large sum - around 50 GC is a large farm's worth for example. Keeping multiple thousands of GC in reserve is a bit beyond any reasonable expectation of GC strictures and so far most of the expense has been towards practical stuff.

Sure the trashy romance novels might seem a bit much but Mathilde does need something to unwind.
 
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a welcome addition to the multispecies community of Karak Eight Peaks.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be returned to the Hold it was stolen from, to build strong ties among the Karaz Ankor.

Hopefully I'm not too late to vote.
 
Let's keep in mind that even 1000 GC is a very large sum - around 50 GC is a large farm's worth for example. Keeping multiple thousands of GC in reserve is a bit beyond any reasonable expectation of GC strictures and so far most of the expense has been towards practical stuff.

I don't object to a 1000 GC reserve. My fear is that we'd keep spending until we find out we don't even have a reserve, especially since we haven't budgeted crucial items such as the penthouse. The windfall might look large, but it's not infinite. Judging by how the last two big expenditure votes had no costing estimate, it feels to me as if the thread is treating the windfall as if it is infinite, with things like 700GC romance novels collections based on an entertaining meme being emblematic of this phenomena.
 
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So to distract myself, we were planning to do some kind of Ranald the Protector pushing through the use of our coin and some kind of alter ego disguise. If so then might I suggest that we have some fun with it and make it a Jester/Harlequin outfit for the alter ego, if only because it would be hilarious.
 
The penthouse, at it's most expensive, is 100gc per floor. We can afford it.

We still don't know how many floors we want to go for - how many towers, how many underground rooms, their purposes and so on. I believe that veekie made the most developed plan right now, but there's surprisingly little discussion on this. Then again, once the option to build our penthouse emerges, I expect debate to begin.

Also, I just realized: we are proposing to splurge on romance novels worth seven penthouse floors..... :rofl2:
 
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[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Romance Novels, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Romance Novels, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons.
I think you might of accidentally grabbed the version with the mistakenly included romance novels you would need to remove them if you want that vote counted correctly.
 
On 'frivolous' book purchases, keep in mind the following qualities:
-We aren't allowed to hold onto large amounts of money. Period. The Grey College wants to see it spent on the earmarked task, last time we made a thousand gold we were sent a warning after about a year sitting on the money for a rainy day.

-Building a comprehensive library is a respectable pursuit for a Wizard. Not many legal ways to spend so much money, and by spending it on dwarf booksellers, we're basically churning the money back into the dwarf economy we took it from. If we made it semi-public access its even investing into the public good, the new Undumgi leader for instance, probably would want some access to books on estate management and economic theory, as well as maps and info on trade goods and civilizations along the way. We could offer that.

-The Romance Novels are actively an important 'pink market' route into connections in the Eight Peaks area. The Halfling leader is one in the book swap network. So is the Stewardship advisor/potential Royal Consort/Queen. As such, they represent a small but useful diplomacy and intrigue bonus when making connections with them, the Eight Peaks region is positively starved for good literature, beyond what individual expedition members brought along. The romance novel club is large and influential.

That said I don't really expect much more large scale book purchases upcoming that don't require Favor costs.

@veekie : Do you have an estimate as to how much your proposed plan would cost? There is a chance that this vote would affect how much funds we really have to devote to Mathilde's penthouse.
Each Tower room is 100gc, basement room half that.
We might spring for high quality dwarf equipment for another 100-200 gc each for the lab and workshop.
Up to 500gc expectation on extravagant vault(on the basis that a fortress would have cost a thousand), panic button and wards construction, most of the cost here is probably the runes Favor expense though.
Survey is paid in Favor I think.

Amber magic would give bonuses to any action that involves amber magic. This would also cover using windsage to analyze animals and ghur-based emotions.

I intend to have books focusing on all eight winds of magic to go with our vision.

That said, Morr is slightly less immediately useful but if we end up spending actions on Liber Mortis based experiments they might as well be.

Bonuses that stack. What else are you going to spend gold on other than this and our tower?
Pretty much yeah.
About Dhar: I'm a little concerned that we won't be able to show off our newfound (if theoretical) necromancer-smashing skills without someone catching on and going "thank you for saving us, now WELCOME TO DIE YOU HERETIC."
I think we're fine USING it, because anyone who hadn't read the Libris Mortis can't distinguish between "Mathilde used a flick of magic to trigger a Dhar supercriticality using the Second Secret of Dhar" and "Mathilde used a flick of magic to distract the foul wielder of Dhar, who lost control of their magic and exploded.".

Because well...we've literally done something like that to Greenskin shamans before we read the book.
 
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