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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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[] Everybody Deserves A Place To call Home.
-[] Ask Kyouko how important the place is to her.
-[] Acknowledge that, and contrast it with the minimal effort you (and Mika) put in, here.
-[] There was a lot of serendipity involved. Lucky break, for once.
-[] Kyouko deserves this. Better, even. She can't convince you otherwise. You did the right thing.
-[] For all the effort you put in, you'll accept her thanks. Thanks and a hug, even.
-[] Absolve Kyouko of debt as well as you can.

[] Metabomb.
-[] Afterwards, ask something of Kyouko and Yuma, as friends.
-[] Privacy device. Normal warnings, and watch out for those antennas.
-[] Remind them of your weird knowledge; reveal your hipotheses about your nature. Don't jump right into you knowing their past, but build towards it.

Partial agreements abound. :V

This plan, which I hacked together just now and haven't yet revised, would be:

Ask Kyouko to explain, in as much detail as she feels like, what all this fucking thing means to her, how HUGE it is... so it will contrast starkly against the minimal amount of effort it took to make this happen.

Even as we avoid alienating Kyouko, there's a couple of facts we need to hold onto. Kind of like when we talked with Homura and we held our ground?
Firnagzen said:
"How?" Homura whispers, her voice raw and agonized. "I don't deserv- I can't."
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Firnagzen said:
"I don't agree with that," you say, touching her shoulder gently. "I'd never agree with that, Homura."
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There's a line we need to mark, from which we won't budge.

I think the facts we need to hold onto would be:

- Good things can just happen.
- Kyouko deserves better. <-- big part of what Kai is saying

And then... basically bargain, but opposite of how it usually goes. :p Kyouko wants to pay big, we want to demand small.

I think we would call it a victory if we got away with Kyouko's heartful thanks, wouldn't we? If she truly insists, we could bargain up to thanks and a hug. What a deal! It would even be fair, considering all we did to make this happen.

And the Metabomb, I think, should be breached as a thing between friend, yes? After dealing with the Church thing as best as possible.
 
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Cleaning this out a little for readability. And then throwing in dumb jokes to make it less readable. :thonk:

[X] Try to absolve Kyouko of the debt she feels she owes you.
-[X] She deseves to have a place to call her own. Everyone does.
-[X] You can't hold this over her head. It'd be wrong. For how important this is to her, you really didn't do much. Mika just bitched at some rich people for a few minutes, that's all.
-[X] Helping people in unfair situations is what you do. You're happy to, and her thanks would be enough for you.

[X] If she needs to repay you, she can pay it forward, and keep taking care of Yuma. And if she finds any stray meguca in need of help, she knows to send them to you.

[X] Once that's done, ask Kyouko and Yuma, as friends, to talk in private.
-[X] Privacy device.
-[X] Reveal your suspicions about your nature, your knowledge, your purpose. Don't start by telling them you know their pasts, but build to it, have some tact.
--[Q] You're doomed.
 
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Onmur said:
For all the effort you put in, you'll accept her thanks. Thanks and a hug, even.
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"According to the labor theory of value, you owe me one hug."

"Of course she's a Marxist. Look, I'm clearly using the subjective theory of value. It's a better predictor of price because it doesn't turn out stupid bullshit like exchanging someone's childhood home for a hug."

"It doesn't have to be stupid bullshit, though! C'mon, Kyoko, seize me like I'm the means of production!"

"Now I'm never hugging you."
 
[X] Kaizuki

I've said this before buuuut...

Wise best catgirl is best.
Adhoc vote count started by Norad the Borad on Dec 20, 2018 at 1:23 PM, finished with 148711 posts and 7 votes.
  • [X] Tone: steady, firm. Look Kyouko in the eyes. You came out here to help her because you wanted to since she deserved it, not to win her favor or somesuch. Steady, soft: her owing you is something you don't want. You want Kyouko to do things for Kyouko, not for Sabrina, because Kyouko really needs that.
    -[X] In response to an assertion that Kyouko doesn't deserve something: apologize for being worried about being overheard, warn Mami via telepathy, privacy sphere from enchanted grief. Include Yuma. Drop the metabomb: minimize details, note that you've been telling your other close friends about it, you know a lot of peoples' rough backgrounds, though not your own. Assert that you know all about the events that lead to the Sakura church being abandoned, and reaffirm that Kyouko deserves good things. Do not talk about specifics of Kyouko's past unless you are challenged to.
    --[X] Otherwise, cut to voting quickly.
    [X] Absolve Kyouko of debt as much as possible.
    -[X] Kyouko deserves this. Everyone deserves a place to call their own.
    --[X] You just did the right thing.
    -[X] Acknowledge how important this is to her; contrast with how little effort it took you and Mika.
    --[X] For how much this costed you, you'd accept her heartful thanks. Wouldn't say no to a hug.
    [X] Metabomb.
    -[X] Afterwards, ask something of Kyouko and Yuma, as friends.
    -[X] Privacy device. Normal warnings, and watch out for those antennas.
    -[X] Remind them of your weird knowledge; reveal your hipotheses about your nature. Don't jump right into you knowing their past, but build towards it.
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DB_Explorer said:
Firnagzen said:
"Shit happens," Kyouko says. She picks off the last of the vegetables on her plate. "Deal with it."
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Thats actually great advice.
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I would say that's actually shit advice, but actually, I'm not certain it conts as advice at all.

More importantly, I was gonna comment something like twenty hours ago but forgot, but the longer Kyouko stays stuck on the "GOOD THINGS CAN'T JUST HAPPEN" phase, the longer my answer to her becomes throwing her words back at her.

"(Good) shit happens. Deal with it."

:p
 
Onmur said:
I would say that's actually shit advice, but actually, I'm not certain it conts as advice at all.

More importantly, I was gonna comment something like twenty hours ago but forgot, but the longer Kyouko stays stuck on the "GOOD THINGS CAN'T JUST HAPPEN" phase, the longer my answer to her becomes throwing her words back at her.

"(Good) shit happens. Deal with it."

:p
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Well to me that advice always meant that sometimes shit does NOT go as planned, sometimes shit just goes wrong. You can't despair when you suddenly need to get your car fixed, or if a tree crashed into your house etc etc. Going 'I'm dooooooomed' does not help you SOLVE the situation. Basically you have deal with it in the sense of SOLVING it not dealing with it as an enduring it.

Just enduring shit does nothing... the meek may inherit the earth but's it's going to be small plots of about 6 by 3.
 
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[Q] (Good) shit happens. Deal with it.
-[Q] It's me.
--[Q] I'm the good shit.
---[Q] And I'm happening.
----[Q] You've been hit by.
-----[Q] You've been hugged by.
------[Q] A smooth Sabrina.

"Damn, that darned Sabrina is smooth and makes everything better, I'm at peace with myself now."

"Hugging Sabrina is nice."

"Yes."


"OK, but now tell me what actually happened."

"... I did get a Yumahug."
 
Dantalion said:
Well no wonder they considered our microwaving tea heretical... we forgot the cup of water it's supposed to be in.
Of course microwaving a box of tea leaves won't do anything.
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If you think about it, it's genius.

People would expect us to heretically microwave cold tea in order to heat it back up (and ruin it), or they would expect us to microwave water to use to make tea (which supposedly is healthier). What they would never expect if for us to actually microwave the tea (leaves).

Nobody would be that stupid. We're two steps ahead of the game.
 
Ugh, this is a terrible time to be suffering post-sleep deprivation and argumentative burnout.
Kaizuki said:
I'm not arguing that we need to obviate it. The issue is that under current circumstances it's detrimental to our efforts. I'm fine with Kyouko deciding she owes us, I am not fine with Kyouko deciding she owes us when we're still at arms' length from each other. The reason the vote doesn't say "Kyouko owing us isn't something we want right now" is that that would imply it's something we would want eventually, which... isn't really the case. We want Kyouko to work with us because she decides she wants to, not out of a sense of debt.

As for the "she deserves our help" thing...

... have you read TDS, Phoenixian?

Kyouko's entire issue is that she feels she's responsible for what happened to her family.

She doesn't believe that she deserves good things after that -- or, if we're somehow in the million-to-one world where she does, then saying that she does doesn't hurt us.

You talk about the possibility of steadfast rejection... But, y'see, here's the thing: if Kyouko wants to "steadfastly reject" us saying that she deserves a helping hand right in front of Yuma, then I. Am. Game.

That route is a Good Thing, because it's the ideal situation for something that has to happen eventually. Kyouko doesn't believe she deserves good things, and eventually we have to refute that if we ever want to get anywhere with her... and I've gotta say -- we want Yuma there when we do, because Yuma doesn't accept that Kyouko is someone who doesn't deserve good things, and because she and Kyouko are very close. Yuma and Sabrina back each other up, Sabrina drops the metabomb, tells her that we feel she deserves good things even knowing what happened, Yuma agrees. It makes it harder for Kyouko to keep resisting -- what's she gonna do, run away from Yuma?

If this were in a vacuum between us and Kyouko things would be different. I'd be more worried about exactly what you're pointing to, among other things. But Yuma is right here, and Kyouko is talking about personal things with her present, and that gives us a Very Big Opportunity to be a lot more forward about things.


-snip-

[X] Tone: steady, firm. Look Kyouko in the eyes. You came out here to help her because you wanted to since she deserved it, not to win her favor or somesuch. Steady, soft: her owing you is something you don't want. You want Kyouko to do things for Kyouko, not for Sabrina, because Kyouko really needs that.

I'd kill to just have that one line be the entire vote and see where Kyouko and Yuma take us. There are, as I have said, many possible paths.

-[X] In response to an assertion that Kyouko doesn't deserve something: apologize for being worried about being overheard, warn Mami via telepathy, privacy sphere from enchanted grief. Include Yuma. Drop the metabomb: minimize details, note that you've been telling your other close friends about it, you know a lot of peoples' rough backgrounds, though not your own. Assert that you know all about the events that lead to the Sakura church being abandoned, and reaffirm that Kyouko deserves good things. Do not talk about specifics of Kyouko's past unless you are challenged to.
--[X] Otherwise, cut to voting quickly.
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Yes, I have read TDS. Repeatedly and with some frequency. And it kinda hurts that you ask.

Even so, it's arguably not even necessary here because Kyouko outright tells us the gist of her backstory and her feelings about it in PMAS, and her feelings about who she's become to boot, during the first two posts of the original church talk.

But yes, the fact that Kyouko blames herself for the death of her family was on my mind and is, in fact, part of the problem. Just us saying something doesn't mean she will agree with it, especially when she has jadedness and contrariness backing up her self-hate.

We've seen and talked about where flat out pushing Kyouko goes, time and time again.

Yes, Kyouko has come to coming to respect us a little more, she doesn't hate our speeches as much as she says she does, and this update shows that she's now treating us as someone who now actually has been through a bit of the meguca world's dark side, but I think you're massively underestimating her negative response and overestimating how willing Yuma will be to confront her. We've seen how abuse made Yuma skittish and self-doubtful earlier on, and what we saw was of her worries about Kyouko casting her aside was pretty similar to Mami's worries about us abandoning her during week two.


It's true that Yuma's been doing better about her abandonment fears, and has been for a while, but her "abort, abort" bit during this update when we asked Kyouko to share her stuff shows that isn't perfect. That says to me that something like this has clearly come up before, that she and Kyouko have drawn boundaries over some topics, and that pressuring Yuma on it would just put her on the spot in a bad and kind of abusive way.

So, I have to say that I do not like the way you are proposing this plan. It strikes me that it's contrary to the relationship we've tried to build Kyouko and what we've learned in the process and relies on sheer force of personality and as a result, if Kyouko is listening for an actual argument, then it has a good chance to blow up in our face and leave us with an "Well, I thought you kinda got things after your experience, but you clearly don't."

And I don't trust so little space given to the metabomb itself.

I think that if you want to make an argument about Kyouko deserving happiness it needs a fundamental point. She listened to us before on an argument about what people would think about where she is now... but that argument worked because we talked about her situation as a homeless person who's taken in a kid anyways and people's reactions to it.

If you want, the argument on what she deserves can be that she's not alone: Sayaka lost her home and feels indebted to Hitomi for getting it back, Mami blames herself for the death of her family and easily comes to blame herself for the loss of her friends, Homura worries about damning herself in the eyes of those she cares for most. Kyouko isn't identical to them in the situations or her feelings, but in her own way each of these things are shared. And from there deserve that if they deserve happiness your help then Kyouko does too.

Hell, they all mirror the aspect of "shared grief" that Homura talked about when asked how Kyouko and Mami might reconcile.

Of course, that might be a bit invasive and Kyouko isn't actually friends with these people at the moment. (And I don't think she and Mami ever talked about Mami's regrets about her own wish.)

Alternatively, there's an argument we could make from a post-metabomb standpoint --- if she believes us entirely and respects us for knowing what we do and working towards our goals anyways. Though that's more as "Yes, I've seen what you've done, and just as importantly who you've consistently become, and the hard work and sacrifices you've made for others when given the chance."


Though it's worth noting that that is a history that ties into Kyouko's lich- and witch-bomb responses.


But we do, fundamentally, need a point at the foundation of the argument.

Kaizuki said:
Really, my big personal preference would be to have nothing to do with the bloody privacy stuff at all, and to just proceed immediately before the situation has a chance to change. If we just had enough enchanted grief on hand...!

...!!!

We did scene-skip directly to Kasamino without being in air... @Firnagzen? Did we...?

You know, given that the trip was cut out and that there was a standing at the end of last vote -- the result of the vote prior to that -- I'm going with "we did." Given that we were planning on talking about the metabomb, it was fairly obvious...



Then, that just leaves how much we can do outside the sphere. I'd kind of assumed everything had to be inside it. But... if we could just...

Yeah, this works too much better to not go for it.
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I don't think we did just skip here Kai, It's three paragraphs, but Firn does detail our activities at the start of the update:
Firnagzen said:
Kasamino. Mitakihara's sister city. Mitakihara's other half, seperated by a mere river. It's a big river, true, and you fondly recall the way it glittered as you hurled yourself across it all that time ago. Far below, you can see the white vee-shaped wake of some boat cutting through the gentle, slopping waves.

Maybe you should do that again, you muse as you wing over the shining river. You keep Aurora in your hand as you fly, letting magic and the magic of the moment seep into the Grief Seed as you soar. And... it was fun, and you can't help but wonder how you measure up now, with more experience simply moving as a magical girl. Maybe on the way bac-

You blink, thoughts promptly derailed by a flash of dusky red on a rooftop. Red and green, perched atop a building.
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So, no, we don't have enchanted grief: We were working with Aurora at that time.


I don't have a vote plan right now. I'm a bit too swamped with exhaustion and self-doubt to write one up. But I needed to get this commentary out, because I think Kai's plan is badly flawed and no one else is stepping up to say anything.

I also want to say that I don't think the external materials are as necessary to understanding what's already written up in PMAS itself as they're being given credit for, and I worry that assuming that they are absolutely necessary kills discussion.

I do think the first part of talking to Kyouko is listening to Kyouko, but my prior plans haven't expressed that quite as well as was needed. Right now, I'm also coming to wonder if the metabomb is even necessary for addressing this bit at all.
 
The Phoenixian said:
We were working with Aurora at that time.
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Listen, A) there is in fact a timeskip there, B) I've given Firn ample notice to deny that we have enchanted grief. If we didn't, he'd tell us.

The Phoenixian said:
So, I have to say that I do not like the way you are proposing this plan. It strikes me that it's contrary to the relationship we've tried to build Kyouko and what we've learned in the process and relies on sheer force of personality and as a result, if Kyouko is listening for an actual argument, then it has a good chance to blow up in our face and leave us with an "Well, I thought you kinda got things after your experience, but you clearly don't."
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You know, I keep trying to say this... This single vote isn't the end of this conversation with Kyouko. It's not even the majority of this conversation with Kyouko. Kyouko isn't Mami and I can't basically predict her every reaction in neat detail, I can't produce a megavote that will take us through this conversation in one update and leave her happier than she's ever been.

What I can do is, I can isolate the arguments that need to be made -- that must be made -- and I can make them, calmly, emphatically.

The Phoenixian said:
I think that if you want to make an argument about Kyouko deserving happiness it needs a fundamental point. She listened to us before on an argument about what people would think about where she is now... but that argument worked because we talked about her situation as a homeless person who's taken in a kid anyways and people's reactions to it.

If you want, the argument on what she deserves can be that she's not alone: Sayaka lost her home and feels indebted to Hitomi for getting it back, Mami blames herself for the death of her family and easily comes to blame herself for the loss of her friends, Homura worries about damning herself in the eyes of those she cares for most. Kyouko isn't identical to them in the situations or her feelings, but in her own way each of these things are shared. And from there deserve that if they deserve happiness your help then Kyouko does too.

Hell, they all mirror the aspect of "shared grief" that Homura talked about when asked how Kyouko and Mami might reconcile.

Of course, that might be a bit invasive and Kyouko isn't actually friends with these people at the moment. (And I don't think she and Mami ever talked about Mami's regrets about her own wish.)

Alternatively, there's an argument we could make from a post-metabomb standpoint --- if she believes us entirely and respects us for knowing what we do and working towards our goals anyways. Though that's more as "Yes, I've seen what you've done, and just as importantly who you've consistently become, and the hard work and sacrifices you've made for others when given the chance."
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Probably using at least some of the elements you lay out here.

...

Ah, I see.

[X] Tone: steady, firm. Look Kyouko in the eyes. You came out here to help her because you wanted to since she deserved it, not to win her favor or somesuch. Steady, soft: her owing you is something you don't want. You want Kyouko to do things for Kyouko, not for Sabrina, because Kyouko really needs that.
-[X] In response to an assertion that Kyouko doesn't deserve something: apologize for being worried about being overheard, warn Mami via telepathy, privacy sphere from enchanted grief. Include Yuma. Drop the metabomb: minimize details, note that you've been telling your other close friends about it, you know a lot of peoples' rough backgrounds, though not your own. Assert that you know all about the events that lead to the Sakura church being abandoned, and reaffirm that Kyouko deserves good things. Do not talk about specifics of Kyouko's past unless you are challenged to.
--[X] Cut to voting quickly.

Change made to last line to emphasize intended shortness of vote. Previously "Otherwise, cut to voting quickly."
What this is, Yvonne, is establishing a baseline. The baseline is, "I believe you deserve my help." The baseline is, "I don't want you to make sacrifices for me."

After that baseline is established, the plan is to make arguments probably very similar to what you have lain out, but to do it right. I don't know Kyouko inside and out, only well enough, and she could react in a variety of different ways to this, and so I feel that we are best off with a series of short votes that each make sense in their context instead of some giant thing that tried to cover every contingency.

I'm sorry that you're feeling some burnout, here, because out of everyone being really prolific in here atm it is you that I respect the most, and I'm really hoping you'll stick around for the next few votes to make the kinds of arguments you're talking about to Kyouko. And if you think my vote isn't doing a good enough job of not autopiloting past just the baseline, I'd really like to hear that because yeah, as you imply, having this be our whole argument -- it wouldn't be safe. Oh don't get me wrong, it'd be meaningful -- "I know what happened and I still believe you deserve good things"? Meaningful, very meaningful... But not safe, no, not alone.

*Sighs*

On the topic of the metabomb deserving more bulk... Honestly, I will state again -- I would have preferred to leave this vote as

[] Tone: steady, firm. Look Kyouko in the eyes. You came out here to help her because you wanted to since she deserved it, not to win her favor or somesuch. Steady, soft: her owing you is something you don't want. You want Kyouko to do things for Kyouko, not for Sabrina, because Kyouko really needs that.
-[] Cut quickly afterward

With the expectation of probably writing a metabomb the next vote.

I bowed to pressure regarding vote length. Maybe I shouldn't, do you think?

A/N: Phoenixians discord name is Yvonne and he hugs a lot of people... I'm gonna end up using both names probably lol
 
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