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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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@Godwinson I think I see a problem: The antimagic part involves bringing Kirika inside inside Homura's timestop. We have never done that before IIRC, and I don't think Homura's gonna let Kirika inside her sanctuary anytime soon.

Also, could it be better if Mami can just physically restrain Rionna with ribbons to keep her inside the isolation field (which renders her unable to use her shades anyway) while Sabrina de-gems her? And maybe while keeping Sayaka on the side ready to blast Anti-magic as backup?

Edit: Homura could also wait outside and ready to snipe Rionna, in case things go horribly wrong and non-lethal methods are thrown out the window.
 
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defenestrator said:
@Godwinson I think I see a problem: The antimagic part involves bringing Kirika inside inside Homura's timestop. We have never done that before IIRC, and I don't think Homura's gonna let Kirika inside her sanctuary anytime soon.

Also, could it be better if Mami can just physically restrain Rionna with ribbons while Sabrina de-gems her? While keeping Sayaka on the side ready to blast Anti-magic as backup?
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We have before. And note that my antimagic clause says Kirika or Sayaka? And invites suggestions and commentary from our friends? Anyway, no, I do not want magically-conductive ribbons connecting Mami with someone whose magic kills.
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Sep 12, 2018 at 9:50 AM, finished with 145062 posts and 47 votes.
  • [X] Use grief to communicate with Mami, have her call for Homura to timestop now. Give Rionna no time outside of the privacy field to send commands to her shades.
    -[X] While doing this, continue speaking to Rionna so as to distract her from what you're doing. Get her attention focused entirely on you.
    [X] Once in timestop, explain shade hazard then create a griefhax soul viewing effect (like the one used to observe Oriko's soul), and use it to avoid any lingering shades, then bring in Sayaka. Explain what you've learned about Rionna to them. You're not going to let that stand.
    -[X] Explain plan to team, ask for input and advice.
    --[X] Plan: Have Sayaka or Kirika enchant an antimagic box that suppresses Rionna's magic (and not our group's). Timestop degem Rionna immediately into the box while blasting antimagic at her. Have Sayaka try to copy Rionna's magic, so that we can try to put the shades to rest, and have access to someone who can diagnose soul maladies on hand. Keep Rionna's body stored in Homura's shield or our hammerspace for the foreseeable future, until we've got enough other girls working with us, and stability, to try to rehabilitate her.
    [X] If anything goes wrong during this plan, and Rionna looks to become combat capable again, immediately degem with all needed force.
    [X] null
    [X] Act. Visibly restrain yourself. Agree verbally to leave her alone, but ask what she tried to do, first. Keep Riona unbalanced.
    [X] At the same time, signal Mami to tag you and Homura and have Homura activate her magic.
    -[X] If Riona is somehow included in timestop:
    --[X] Act first: Detain Riona with Grief Fog, take the Gem, threaten to break it.
    --[X] If anything goes wrong, no holds barred. Purée her. Save the Gem unless Riona still tries to attack.
    --[X] Otherwise, continue.
    [X] In timestop:
    -[X] Consult Mami on the danger of tripping Riona's shades. Explain briefly. Employ Grief hax if needed.
    -[X] Leave, convene with Mami and Homura.
    --[X] Make sure Riona remains time-stoped at all times.
    --[X] Things went wrong, get Sayaka and go to Oriko's. Insist if needed.
    --[X] Get Kirika to enchant everything you might need to antimagic Riona, Gem and body.*
    --[X] Explain eveything. Avoid Social Bombs.
    -[X] Plan (listen to opinions):
    --[X] Blast Riona and her surrounding area with Anti Magic (Sayaka and Kirika).
    --[X] Use Anti Magic restraints on Riona and her Gem.
    --[X] Restrain Riona completely.
    --[X] Mami and Homura know their roles better than you do.
    -[X] Enact plan.
    [X] Call Mami for an emergency timestop meeting.
    [X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting
    [X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.
    [X] Kill her
    [x] Fine. Release the isolation field.
    [x] Tell Riona you regret that she wasn't able to find what she was searching for here.
    [x] Given the circumstance, while it's regrettable, I agree it's best that you leave Mitakihara at your earliest convenience. Further I must insist that you don't create anymore shades in our city for any reason or I'm afraid conflict will be unavoidable. That said, wish her a good night.
    [x] Leave with Mami. You're done here.
    [x] When you're out a considerable range from Riona, contact Homura by phone for a timestop meeting. Update Homura and Mami of the situation. You weren't able to come to any agreement with Riona. Bring up Riona's intentions to leave in the morning and threat assessment. Avoid social bombs.
    [X] Agree to end the conversation, but not before calling Riona out on everything: she's crossed a lot of lines—showing up in your territory without warning, permission, or excuse, trying to mind control you without provocation, making demands in exchange for nothing...
    -[X] Meanwhile, call Mami via grief for an emergency timestop meeting.
    [X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting
    [X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.
    [x] Ensure she doesn't leave this bubble under her own power, either by calling a meeting and then alpha-striking her or by alpha-striking her right now.
    [X] Shrug casually
    -[X] Alright. Wasn't planning on keeping you trapped anyways, anti-spy zone is for spies like QB, not you.
    --[X] Release the field, hug Mami, telepathically request time-stop.
    ---[X] Discuss.
    [X] Cleansing offer.
    [X] If that's so, then when and why did she go from seeking justice to judging people without knowing their crimes, unjustly taking other people's sisters? When did she give up, and start spending her time inflicting pain instead of trying to get her sister back?
    [X] Don't allow her to leave. Don't allow her to harm you. Don't allow her to harm herself. Use all means necessary.
    [X] Talk to her:
    -[X] There are/were options. Just as an example, she could have cut a deal with a potential, that she would fulfill their wish and some in exchange for them using their wish to bring back her sister. Somebody somewhere would go for it. Healing is a common enough wish, and not difficult to provide.
    -[X] Argue that the only thing she's accomplished with her current track has been to inflict pain on others and deny herself any hope of getting what she actually wants.
    -[X] Argue that the incubator tries to provoke isolation and infighting for a reason: less cooperation means less chance of people getting what they want, and thus better rates of witching. She could always punish the architect if she's not satisfied yet. A shot at that, you can provide.
    [X] Agree to end the meeting shortly.
    -[X] Tell Riona you regret that she wasn't able to find what she was searching for here.
    [X] Release the Field.
    [X] Before letting her be, call her out and get concessions in exchange for her actions, without pissing her off too badly:
    -[X] Priority: Arrange a new meeting before she leaves, with plenty of time to spare.
    -[X] Priority: She does not attack nor use magic against anyone in Mitakihara.
    -[X] She'll answer all our questions next meeting.
    [X] Go. Once you're away:
    -[X] Timestop meeting. Include Sayaka.
    -[X] Explain everything. Avoid social bombs. Don't take sides, be impartial.
    [X] Use grief to communicate with Mami, request immediate timestop. Give Rionna no time outside of the privacy field to send commands to her shades.
    -[X] While doing this, continue speaking to Rionna so as to distract her from what you're doing. Get her attention focused entirely on you.
    [X] Once in timestop, create a griefhax soul viewing effect (like the one used to observe Oriko's soul), and use it to avoid any lingering shades. Go bring in Sayaka. Explain what you've learned about Rionna to them. You're not going to let that stand.
    -[X] Explain plan to team, ask for input and advice.
    --[X] Plan: Obtain an antimagic box that suppresses Rionna's magic (and not ours) using Kirika's enchantment. Timestop degem Rionna immediately into the box, with an antimagic pulse from Sayaka active as you do. Have Sayaka try to copy Rionna's magic, so that we can try to put the shades to rest, and have access to someone who can diagnose soul maladies on hand. Keep Rionna's body in stasis in Homura's shield, until we've got enough other girls working with us, and stability, to try to rehabilitate her.
    [X] If anything goes wrong during this plan, and Rionna looks to become combat capable again, immediately degem with all needed force.
    [X] Your power is to enslave and torment other magical girls?
    - [X] If you continue on this path, it will lead to conflict between us in future.
    [X] But for now, you came to Mitakihara in peace, and we'll ask you to leave in peace.
    - [X] If we can get your word to leave Mitakihara in peace, we'll drop the shield and escort you to the airport.
    [X] add to TODO list: develop soul shielding, liberate Edinburgh.
    [X] Your power is to enslave and torment other magical girls?
    - [X] If you continue on this path, it will lead to conflict between us in future.
    [X] But for now, you came to Mitakihara in peace, and we'll ask you to leave in peace.
    - [X] If we can get your word to leave Mitakihara in peace, we'll drop the shield and escort you to the airport.
    [X] add to TODO list: develop soul shielding, liberate Edinburgh.
Click to expand...
 
Godwinson said:
We have before. And note that my antimagic clause says Kirika or Sayaka? And invites suggestions and commentary from our friends? Anyway, no, I do not want magically-conductive ribbons connecting Mami with someone whose magic kills.
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He has a point about Homura being ready to snipe though. Also, if the first object that touches Riona is anti-magic tape, then Riona can't use shades OR soul snatching.

Edit:
Godwinson said:
I've edited my vote to include the part in red:
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Okay, that's acceptable.
Could you also have Homura set up some bullets headed for Riona's joints (Before we grab her gem) as well?
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Aranfan on Sep 12, 2018 at 8:54 AM, finished with 145054 posts and 47 votes.
  • [X] Use grief to communicate with Mami, have her call for Homura to timestop now. Give Rionna no time outside of the privacy field to send commands to her shades.
    -[X] While doing this, continue speaking to Rionna so as to distract her from what you're doing. Get her attention focused entirely on you.
    [X] Once in timestop, explain shade hazard then create a griefhax soul viewing effect (like the one used to observe Oriko's soul), and use it to avoid any lingering shades, then bring in Sayaka. Explain what you've learned about Rionna to them. You're not going to let that stand.
    -[X] Explain plan to team, ask for input and advice.
    --[X] Plan: Have Sayaka or Kirika enchant an antimagic box that suppresses Rionna's magic (and not our group's). Timestop degem Rionna immediately into the box while blasting antimagic at her. Have Sayaka try to copy Rionna's magic, so that we can try to put the shades to rest, and have access to someone who can diagnose soul maladies on hand. Keep Rionna's body stored in Homura's shield or our hammerspace for the foreseeable future, until we've got enough other girls working with us, and stability, to try to rehabilitate her.
    [X] If anything goes wrong during this plan, and Rionna looks to become combat capable again, immediately degem with all needed force.
    [X] null
    [X] Act. Visibly restrain yourself. Agree verbally to leave her alone, but ask what she tried to do, first. Keep Riona unbalanced.
    [X] At the same time, signal Mami to tag you and Homura and have Homura activate her magic.
    -[X] If Riona is somehow included in timestop:
    --[X] Act first: Detain Riona with Grief Fog, take the Gem, threaten to break it.
    --[X] If anything goes wrong, no holds barred. Purée her. Save the Gem unless Riona still tries to attack.
    --[X] Otherwise, continue.
    [X] In timestop:
    -[X] Consult Mami on the danger of tripping Riona's shades. Explain briefly. Employ Grief hax if needed.
    -[X] Leave, convene with Mami and Homura.
    --[X] Make sure Riona remains time-stoped at all times.
    --[X] Things went wrong, get Sayaka and go to Oriko's. Insist if needed.
    --[X] Get Kirika to enchant everything you might need to antimagic Riona, Gem and body.*
    --[X] Explain eveything. Avoid Social Bombs.
    -[X] Plan (listen to opinions):
    --[X] Blast Riona and her surrounding area with Anti Magic (Sayaka and Kirika).
    --[X] Use Anti Magic restraints on Riona and her Gem.
    --[X] Restrain Riona completely.
    --[X] Mami and Homura know their roles better than you do.
    -[X] Enact plan.
    [X] Call Mami for an emergency timestop meeting.
    [X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting
    [X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.
    [X] Kill her
    [x] Fine. Release the isolation field.
    [x] Tell Riona you regret that she wasn't able to find what she was searching for here.
    [x] Given the circumstance, while it's regrettable, I agree it's best that you leave Mitakihara at your earliest convenience. Further I must insist that you don't create anymore shades in our city for any reason or I'm afraid conflict will be unavoidable. That said, wish her a good night.
    [x] Leave with Mami. You're done here.
    [x] When you're out a considerable range from Riona, contact Homura by phone for a timestop meeting. Update Homura and Mami of the situation. You weren't able to come to any agreement with Riona. Bring up Riona's intentions to leave in the morning and threat assessment. Avoid social bombs.
    [X] Agree to end the conversation, but not before calling Riona out on everything: she's crossed a lot of lines—showing up in your territory without warning, permission, or excuse, trying to mind control you without provocation, making demands in exchange for nothing...
    -[X] Meanwhile, call Mami via grief for an emergency timestop meeting.
    [X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting
    [X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.
    [x] Ensure she doesn't leave this bubble under her own power, either by calling a meeting and then alpha-striking her or by alpha-striking her right now.
    [X] Shrug casually
    -[X] Alright. Wasn't planning on keeping you trapped anyways, anti-spy zone is for spies like QB, not you.
    --[X] Release the field, hug Mami, telepathically request time-stop.
    ---[X] Discuss.
    [X] Cleansing offer.
    [X] If that's so, then when and why did she go from seeking justice to judging people without knowing their crimes, unjustly taking other people's sisters? When did she give up, and start spending her time inflicting pain instead of trying to get her sister back?
    [X] Don't allow her to leave. Don't allow her to harm you. Don't allow her to harm herself. Use all means necessary.
    [X] Talk to her:
    -[X] There are/were options. Just as an example, she could have cut a deal with a potential, that she would fulfill their wish and some in exchange for them using their wish to bring back her sister. Somebody somewhere would go for it. Healing is a common enough wish, and not difficult to provide.
    -[X] Argue that the only thing she's accomplished with her current track has been to inflict pain on others and deny herself any hope of getting what she actually wants.
    -[X] Argue that the incubator tries to provoke isolation and infighting for a reason: less cooperation means less chance of people getting what they want, and thus better rates of witching. She could always punish the architect if she's not satisfied yet. A shot at that, you can provide.
    [X] Agree to end the meeting shortly.
    -[X] Tell Riona you regret that she wasn't able to find what she was searching for here.
    [X] Release the Field.
    [X] Before letting her be, call her out and get concessions in exchange for her actions, without pissing her off too badly:
    -[X] Priority: Arrange a new meeting before she leaves, with plenty of time to spare.
    -[X] Priority: She does not attack nor use magic against anyone in Mitakihara.
    -[X] She'll answer all our questions next meeting.
    [X] Go. Once you're away:
    -[X] Timestop meeting. Include Sayaka.
    -[X] Explain everything. Avoid social bombs. Don't take sides, be impartial.
    [X] Use grief to communicate with Mami, request immediate timestop. Give Rionna no time outside of the privacy field to send commands to her shades.
    -[X] While doing this, continue speaking to Rionna so as to distract her from what you're doing. Get her attention focused entirely on you.
    [X] Once in timestop, create a griefhax soul viewing effect (like the one used to observe Oriko's soul), and use it to avoid any lingering shades. Go bring in Sayaka. Explain what you've learned about Rionna to them. You're not going to let that stand.
    -[X] Explain plan to team, ask for input and advice.
    --[X] Plan: Obtain an antimagic box that suppresses Rionna's magic (and not ours) using Kirika's enchantment. Timestop degem Rionna immediately into the box, with an antimagic pulse from Sayaka active as you do. Have Sayaka try to copy Rionna's magic, so that we can try to put the shades to rest, and have access to someone who can diagnose soul maladies on hand. Keep Rionna's body in stasis in Homura's shield, until we've got enough other girls working with us, and stability, to try to rehabilitate her.
    [X] If anything goes wrong during this plan, and Rionna looks to become combat capable again, immediately degem with all needed force.
    [X] Your power is to enslave and torment other magical girls?
    - [X] If you continue on this path, it will lead to conflict between us in future.
    [X] But for now, you came to Mitakihara in peace, and we'll ask you to leave in peace.
    - [X] If we can get your word to leave Mitakihara in peace, we'll drop the shield and escort you to the airport.
    [X] add to TODO list: develop soul shielding, liberate Edinburgh.
    [X] Your power is to enslave and torment other magical girls?
    - [X] If you continue on this path, it will lead to conflict between us in future.
    [X] But for now, you came to Mitakihara in peace, and we'll ask you to leave in peace.
    - [X] If we can get your word to leave Mitakihara in peace, we'll drop the shield and escort you to the airport.
    [X] add to TODO list: develop soul shielding, liberate Edinburgh.
Click to expand...
 
The whole "Well this was a nice chat but I don't like you so into this box you go" plan feels very wrong to me.
There is no escalation. No battle. We just plan to crush her instantly.

Is it the correct course of action against someone like Rionna? Maybe.
But just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right.
 
LendvaV said:
There is no escalation. No battle. We just plan to crush her instantly.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Argue about the morality of taking Rionna out of commission if you must (though keep in mind Firn's comments on Sabrina not acting being OOC), but "crushing Rionna instantly" is just good tactics. The girls got a ton of backup she can call in and her magic has a save-or-die effect, so any kind of "battle" comes with a huge risk of her killing us or our friends.
 
LendvaV said:
The whole "Well this was a nice chat but I don't like you so into this box you go" plan feels very wrong to me.
There is no escalation. No battle. We just plan to crush her instantly.

Is it the correct course of action against someone like Rionna? Maybe.
But just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'd say giving unrepentant murderers a 'fair' fight would be worse. What would be the point? Do they deserve a chance to defend their actions, win, and continue murdering?

Don't want to sound confrontational, but that's what I see.
 
LendvaV said:
The whole "Well this was a nice chat but I don't like you so into this box you go" plan feels very wrong to me.
There is no escalation. No battle. We just plan to crush her instantly.

Is it the correct course of action against someone like Rionna? Maybe.
But just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A fast battle is a battle where all our friends keep their souls and no civilians get killed in the crossfire. Also, you know, murderer/slaver. Not terribly concerned with the "dishonor" of not going full dueling pistols at dawn with her.
 
Onmur said:
Do they deserve a chance to defend their actions, win, and continue murdering?
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At the very least they 'deserve' a chance to surrender. At the very least they deserve the right to argue against their continuing imprisonment, once imprisoned. Yes, even *mass murderers* deserve that, and are given that in civilized systems. We don't cut out their eyes, ears and tongues and put them in life-suspension in a box.

But we'll not only immediately act as judge, jury & executioner, but also it seems as jailors with secret prisons into which we'll be disappearing our enemies, where they'll have no right to any appeal, defense, or any communication with not only the outside world, and actually not even our own person? Something worse than the Birdcage, because at least it was public knowledge who went to the Birdcage, the trials were a matter of public record.

As for your argument, keep it in mind for when some heroes (perhaps grateful to Rionna for saving their lives from some of the other groups she destroyed) come along and shatter the gems of the people we love, in order to rescue Riona or to avenge what they perceive as her murder. They'll probably have a similar vote amongst themselves, where they argue in favour of preemptively murdering us, rather than giving us a chance to 'win and continue murdering', as we did with Riona.

Certainly they shouldn't come and *talk* to us first about their problem with us in a meeting, where we can discuss their issue with us. Because such a meeting will obviously just end with us putting them in a box too.
 
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Aris Katsaris said:
At the very least they 'deserve' a chance to surrender. At the very least they deserve the right to argue against their continuing imprisonment, once imprisoned. Yes, even *mass murderers* deserve that, and are given that in civilized systems. We don't cut out their eyes, ears and tongues and put them in life-suspension in a box.

But we'll not only immediately act as judge, jury & executioner, but also it seems as jailors with secret prisons into which we'll be disappearing our enemies, where they'll have no right to any appeal, defense, or any communication with not only the outside world, and actually not even our own person? Something worse than the Birdcage, because at least it was public knowledge who went to the Birdcage, the trials were a matter of public record.

As for your argument, keep it in mind for when some heroes (perhaps grateful to Rionna for saving their lives from some of the other groups she destroyed) come along and shatter the gems of the people we love, in order to rescue Riona or to avenge what they perceive as her murder. They'll probably have a similar vote amongst themselves, where they argue in favour of preemptively murdering us, rather than giving us a chance to 'win and continue murdering', as we did with Riona.

Certainly they shouldn't come and *talk* to us first about their problem with us in a meeting, where we can discuss their problem. Because such a meeting will obviously just end with us putting them in a box too.
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I'm voting to restrain her with Anti-Magic and physically, so w can later put her in the closest thing there's to a meguca prison that we know of. WIth intentions to try and talk sense into her in time, even though I'm pretty sure it won't work.

Not all this stuff you're describing.

Also, we're going to have to make this public ourselves, before KB does, so at the very least our word should out there that Riona's a monster and is being safely and humanely kept. (Unless she turned out way too difficult and dangerous to contain and we actually end up needing to destroy her Gem to prevent anyone else's death, but that's basically a failure state, not our intention.)
 
Aris Katsaris said:
At the very least they 'deserve' a chance to surrender. At the very least they deserve the right to argue against their continuing imprisonment, once imprisoned. Yes, even *mass murderers* deserve that, and are given that in civilized systems. We don't cut out their eyes, ears and tongues and put them in life-suspension in a box.

But we'll not only immediately act as judge, jury & executioner, but also it seems as jailors with secret prisons into which we'll be disappearing our enemies, where they'll have no right to any appeal, defense, or any communication with not only the outside world, and actually not even our own person? Something worse than the Birdcage, because at least it was public knowledge who went to the Birdcage, the trials were a matter of public record.

As for your argument, keep it in mind for when some heroes (perhaps grateful to Rionna for saving their lives from some of the other groups she destroyed) come along and shatter the gems of the people we love, in order to rescue Riona or to avenge what they perceive as her murder. They'll probably have a similar vote amongst themselves, where they argue in favour of preemptively murdering us, rather than giving us a chance to 'win and continue murdering', as we did with Riona.

Certainly they shouldn't come and *talk* to us first about their problem with us in a meeting, where we can discuss their issue with us. Because such a meeting will obviously just end with us putting them in a box too.
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Magical girls have no justice system, because they're too spread out. Enforcing what we feel is right ourselves is the only option available to us. Also if we gem her we're only doing it until we can safely bring her out to put her in proper jail.

Also, anyone who'd be trying to free a mass-murdering slaver is not a "hero". This isn't a matter of opinion- we know she's murdered a bunch of people and kept them as her slaves.
 
Gadjo said:
Also if we gem her we're only doing it until we can safely bring her out to put her in proper jail.
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That's not what the current winning plan says. It says we're keeping her gemmed and stored away indefinitely, until we feel we can 'rehabilitate' her. Since she's "morally black", I think we can assume that to be when hell freezes over, and that we're therefore effectively killing her - and that's at *best*, because we don't really know what indefinite storage of soul-gems causes, and it may be a fate worse than death for all we know.

Gadjo said:
Also, anyone who'd be trying to free a mass-murdering slaver is not a "hero".
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A hero can *definitely* be trying to free people who *we are claiming* to be 'mass-murderers' because *we are claiming* that's what they admitted to, but they have only our word to go by. But it's not as if the Mitakihara group benefitted from our imprisonment of Riona by e.g. copying her powers, oh wait, yeah we are planning to copy her powers too. So we *do benefit* from imprisoning a seemingly innocent Riona and slandering her afterwards.

So how are you gonna convince *actual heroes* that Riona deserved it? You can't point across the fourth wall to Firn's statements about how she's morally black. What they'll know from highly respected Nadia would generally seem to imply Riona was an okay-ish sort, certainly nobody who deserved such a fate.

At that point the heroes will only have two paths: Either allow the continuing entombment of someone who as far as they know *may or may not* deserve it, or not allow such.

And they can't discuss it with us in advance, because that would give us *warning of their attack*, they must act preemptively against us.

Gadjo said:
This isn't a matter of opinion- we know she's murdered a bunch of people and kept them as her slaves.
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From across the fourth wall, we know it. The heroes don't, same way Sabrina didn't before Riona herself admitted it.
 
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Aris Katsaris said:
That's not what the current winning plan says. It says we're keeping her gemmed and stored away indefinitely, until we feel we can 'rehabilitate' her. Since she's "morally black", I think we can assume that to be when hell freezes over, and that we're therefore effectively killing her - and that's at *best*, because we don't really know what indefinite storage of soul-gems causes, and it may be a fate worse than death for all we know.



A hero can *definitely* be trying to free people who *we are claiming* to be 'mass-murderers' because *we are claiming* that's what they admitted to, but they have only our word to go by. But it's not as if the Mitakihara group benefitted from our imprisonment of Riona by e.g. copying her powers, oh wait, yeah we are planning to copy her powers too. So we *do benefit* from imprisoning a seemingly innocent Riona and slandering her afterwards.

So how are you gonna convince *actual heroes* that Riona deserved it? You can't point across the fourth wall to Firn's statements about how she's morally black. What they'll know from highly respected Nadia would generally seem to imply Riona was an okay-ish sort, certainly nobody who deserved such a fate.

At that point the heroes will only have two paths: Either allow the continuing entombment of someone who as far as they know *may or may not* deserve it, or not allow such.

And they can't discuss it with us in advance, because that would give us *warning of their attack*, they must act preemptively against us.



From across the fourth wall, we know it. The heroes don't, same way Sabrina didn't before Riona herself admitted it.
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A: No, it means we're pulling her out of the box once we're confident we're stable enough to keep such a dangerous prisoner.
B: Keep in mind, we did already talk to Riona about not doing murder and slavery, and she told us to fuck off.
C: From time to time people are going to attack us for stupid reasons. That doesn't mean we should avoid doing anything so no one could misinterpret our actions.
D: We're playing as Sabrina- she knows shit from across the 4th wall, like confirmations of guilt. We literally have word of god on this girl being guilty as hell. We're not going to stop doing what's right just because of what other people might think. Anyway, most magical girls would just kill her, and be completely justified in doing so, so if anything we're being impressively merciful.

Seriously, she's been nothing but rude and an evil necromancer since she showed up. There isn't a lot of subtlety to be had here. If we give her an ultimatum, after she's already attacked us, she's going to interrupt us with an attack. Because she's already made it very clear she's not going to listen.

You know how in most societies they take you into custody first before they go through all the telling you why you're being jailed and all the formalities? That's what we're doing. She's already attacked, she has to be disarmed and neutralized before we can even think about any of that other stuff.
 
Gadjo said:
rude
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That's the important part. :V

Seriously, I don't think it's the WoG or the fact she 'attacked' us that should inform our actions, but that she's clearly beyond redemption for the time and effort we can put in working with her until a point she leaves and becomes way too likely to murder someone else.

For me, it's a matter that we can't stop her from killing anyone else without force in the timeframe we got. Of course, that was working under 'morally grey' WoG, but 'morally black' doesn't change this, anyway.
 
Gadjo said:
A: No, it means we're pulling her out of the box once we're confident we're stable enough to keep such a dangerous prisoner.
B: Keep in mind, we did already talk to Riona about not doing murder and slavery, and she told us to fuck off.
C: From time to time people are going to attack us for stupid reasons. That doesn't mean we should avoid doing anything so no one could misinterpret our actions.
D: We're playing as Sabrina- she knows shit from across the 4th wall, like confirmations of guilt. We literally have word of god on this girl being guilty as hell. We're not going to stop doing what's right just because of what other people might think. Anyway, most magical girls would just kill her, and be completely justified in doing so, so if anything we're being impressively merciful.
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A: Again, not what the winning vote says. The winning vote clearly says about keeping her gemmed until we can "try to rehabilitate her". Not until we can "safely detain her", but *try to rehabilitate*. If that's a mistake, the phrasing should be modified accordingly.

B: Not a point I disputed. I'm NOT arguing that Riona is a good person. That's utterly irrelevant. This argument would be a bit more relevant if we had videotaped her confession, so we could make it public.

C: Yes, it actually DOES exactly mean that, that our actions should NOT be prone to such easy misinterpretation. Why do you think it shouldn't mean that?

D: When other good and honest people may in all honesty *fight us* because they think we're doing WRONG, and they can honestly feel it's a moral imperative to stop us, then we should indeed reconsider about whether what we're doing is actually right. Because the 'misinterpretation' of our actions is an *anticipatable consequence* of such actions, and if we can't wash our hands off the consequence of our *inaction* (in the sense of letting Riona go), we certainly can't wash our hands off the consequences of our actions either.
 
Aris Katsaris said:
C: Yes, it actually DOES exactly mean that, that our actions should NOT be prone to such easy misinterpretation. Why do you think it shouldn't mean that?
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Dude, the wider community deals with petty warlords and mass murderers all the time. The fact that we didn't just kill her will be pretty novel to most meguca. Also, seriously quit acting like there's a meguca INTERPOL because if there were we'd be acting through or in place of that organization. Meguca in the same region can easily not know each other, we aren't terribly worried about how meguca world wide will see this because until we get in contact with them, they won't.
Aris Katsaris said:
D: When other good and honest people may in all honesty *fight us* because they think we're doing WRONG, and they can honestly feel it's a moral imperative to stop us, then we should indeed reconsider about whether what we're doing is actually right. Because the 'misinterpretation' of our actions is an *anticipatable consequence* of such actions, and if we can't wash our hands off the consequence of our *inaction* (in the sense of letting Riona go), we certainly can't wash our hands off the consequences of our actions either.
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What we're doing is actually right, and we know it for a fact. We'll deal with convincing other people of such later. Seriously, consider how messed up most meguca territories are- keeping a prisoner just to rehabilitate her is weird in this community. Both dangerous and too expensive for most people. There is no justice system to prove this to, other than ourselves. Stop trying to paint stopping a bad person to be on the same level as ignoring a bad person.

Also, you can begin rehabilitating anyone once they can't immediately attack you and break out and you actually have the staff to deal with them. No one is advocating for gemming her forever.
 
LendvaV said:
The whole "Well this was a nice chat but I don't like you so into this box you go" plan feels very wrong to me.
There is no escalation. No battle. We just plan to crush her instantly.

Is it the correct course of action against someone like Rionna? Maybe.
But just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right.
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Yeah I get what you're saying. I also want to do things the right way, I mean sure a fight is almost certainly going to occur but I'd have preferred it happen in something more akin to classic magical girl fashion.

Of course we're dealing with someone who has access to soul manipulation powers so probably has the ability to mutilate, control and read minds and the ability to just straight up rip people's souls out to make them into shades. On top of that she has access to an unknown number of shades floating about presumably ready to do her bidding. So if we want to play things straight we'd need to take a crap load of time-stopped time to get our safety precautions up and ready.

However since we all know we're gonna be beating her into the ground eventually taking her out now in a slightly less correct way is something I'm also OK with. Not as good, but still pretty decent. In some ways it's better since we're not lying to ourselves, procrastinating or using justifications, we're simply taking her out because we know it's going to have to be this way.
Sentient Tree said:
[X] Null

I am very much opposed to ganking Riona. To be clear, if we do gank her I want it to be effective, swift, and without ANY opportunity for her to fight back. Which is why I'll say again that you should add touching her with anti-magic enchantments as the first thing that puts her into timestop, rather than grabbing her gem (since that gives her a split second to react before her gem hits the box).
5 or more pieces of anti-magic tape hitting her simultaneously in separate areas (forehead, back of the neck, hands, ankles, etc) would prevent her from ripping them off quickly enough to matter.


Reasons I personally don't want to gank her though:
1. I don't want to have to split our attention between Mitakihara and Edinburgh. I thought that Oriko said we weren't even supposed to leave Mitakihara for long periods of time, but since we were fine going to Asunaro maybe that's less of a bad idea than I thought? Either way, more time spent filling in the Edinburgh power vacuum is less time spent dealing with all the things we have going on in Mitakihara. I personally don't like that. And it's going to be a lot of time that we spend in Edinburgh. Looking at Afghanistan and Iraq, power vacuums are not easy to fill.
2. She came here to talk, and hasn't made any moves to attack us other than what she thought was necessary to get out. Personally, I don't like attacking her first. She did try to mind control us, but it both failed miserably and was probably more out of desperation than an attempt to manipulate us for the evulz.
3. Unless we can redeem her, the only way we're getting anything out of her is to have Sayaka copy her power. That puts unreasonable pressure on Sayaka to learn the witch bomb.


Add touching her soul gem directly with anti-magic tape to the list of places on her that we should anti-magic. Because mobile hates me and won't let me edit at the top of my post.
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I kind of agree with the general theme of not wanting to gank her immediately but I don't think your first and second arguments are very strong. I mean presumably with the city no longer controlled by a Magical Girl another girl or two will simply take over the place and hunt any Witches around. Hell Kyubey will just contract some girls if he needs someone to take up the duty of keeping the Witch population down.

Also Riona kind of explicitly came here because she's a serial killer and she believed we fit her target profile. We thought she came here to talk but we were actually completely wrong. Sure she seems to target manipulative assholes but I wouldn't be at all surprised if she decided that our soul was worth taking assuming she can overcome what's left of her morals and her caution.

Basically the odds of us getting proper cooperation is very low (I think it's still something we should shoot for despite the terrible odds of success) and Sabrina isn't going to let her go back home and continue acting as she has been. A fight is very nearly guaranteed since Riona almost certainly won't change for Sabrina and Sabrina won't accept anything other than Riona changing her ways.

Personally I'd rather get a crazy amount of defenses set up that guarantee us victory even without initiative and then to use that safety to attempt to break Riona with conversion but I can see the appeal in just going straight to the beat down.
 
I'm gonna use this quote as a jumpstart point.
Aris Katsaris said:
D: When other good and honest people may in all honesty *fight us* because they think we're doing WRONG, and they can honestly feel it's a moral imperative to stop us, then we should indeed reconsider about whether what we're doing is actually right. Because the 'misinterpretation' of our actions is an *anticipatable consequence* of such actions, and if we can't wash our hands off the consequence of our *inaction* (in the sense of letting Riona go), we certainly can't wash our hands off the consequences of our actions either.
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I don't think this line of thoght stands. Sure, our actions could have bad consequences, but we shouldn't stop that from doing good things, like making sure mass murderers don't go free.

Why I don't think this stands, is because part of our job as everything fixed should be to get good PR. We need to reach out and let everyone know we're doing Good, helping out.

So far we've been trying to keep in on the low down, but Riona might be forcing us to reach out wider.

KB's gonna try to spin this against us either way:

"She attacks and disappears people she doesn't like!"

"She consorts with mass murderers and don't stop them even though she can!"

It really shouldn't concern us. KB will find a way.

Rather than stopping ourselves from doing things in case something bad happens, we should do the opposite and do more good things in ways that would mitigate that.

Once we take care of Riona, we need to be the ones putting out the word, before KB does. We'll need to contact Nadia and coordinate to let everyone know there was a mass murderer/enslaver/torturer/monster out there and that we contained her and are keeping her humanely imprisoned, and that the world is a safer, nicer place for it.

We basically need to kickstart our PR campaign. Also send out the word that we're a Grief cleanser and use Riona as an example: If you're the sort who wants to murder and torture and all that shit, if you're Riona, we're hunting you down; if you want a chance at a better life, we can give it to you. It needs to be clear that it's the megucas' intentions now that there's a chance for a better life that matters. If we could have redeemed Riona, we would've have.

Honestly, if Homura and Sayaka don't object too badly, I'd put Oriko in contact with Nadia, tell them to give us good PR, and leave it to them. Inb4 incoming hilarious hijinks at our expense.
 
Just giving my two cents but i don't really like both Sabrina and Rionna here.

At first when Rionna show her true colour i don't think she will potrayed sympatheticly but at least i expect her to be cooperative (for that unlimited grief supply) but she doesn't and just come to (apparently) enslave us with a very hostile intent.

While Sabrina i find her to have this moral high ground that i find obnoxious(which is weird because i think it has happen in the past and it was fine before, i think) except i can't say it's not justified because Rionna really fucked it up.

I think i just expecting token evil teammate (since she wants to talk to us and all) but instead i got stupid evil that my only attachment is the desire to be rid of her from update and discussion as soon as possible
 
Onmur said:
I'm gonna use this quote as a jumpstart point.

I don't think this line of thoght stands. Sure, our actions could have bad consequences, but we shouldn't stop that from doing good things, like making sure mass murderers don't go free.

Why I don't think this stands, is because part of our job as everything fixed should be to get good PR. We need to reach out and let everyone know we're doing Good, helping out.

So far we've been trying to keep in on the low down, but Riona might be forcing us to reach out wider.

KB's gonna try to spin this against us either way:

"She attacks and disappears people she doesn't like!"

"She consorts with mass murderers and don't stop them even though she can!"

It really shouldn't concern us. KB will find a way.

Rather than stopping ourselves from doing things in case something bad happens, we should do the opposite and do more good things in ways that would mitigate that.

Once we take care of Riona, we need to be the ones putting out the word, before KB does. We'll need to contact Nadia and coordinate to let everyone know there was a mass murderer/enslaver/torturer/monster out there and that we contained her and are keeping her humanely imprisoned, and that the world is a safer, nicer place for it.

We basically need to kickstart our PR campaign. Also send out the word that we're a Grief cleanser and use Riona as an example: If you're the sort who wants to murder and torture and all that shit, if you're Riona, we're hunting you down; if you want a chance at a better life, we can give it to you. It needs to be clear that it's the megucas' intentions now that there's a chance for a better life that matters. If we could have redeemed Riona, we would've have.

Honestly, if Homura and Sayaka don't object too badly, I'd put Oriko in contact with Nadia, tell them to give us good PR, and leave it to them. Inb4 incoming hilarious hijinks at our expense.
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Or people will fail to give a fuck about what Rionna did, because they already knew she was doing it. And she's considered either small potatoes or an outright community service, depending on who you ask and what experiences they've had with grief controllers. This is not me excusing her actions, it's the people in the ground excusing her actions, because let's be real Rionna is shit at hiding what she does and doesn't really care to, so there's no way Nadia doesn't know what Rionna does. Like everybody sane in the magical girl world who knows what Rionna does, Nadia has probably called her once or twice to dispose of some Dangerous magical girl before she starts researching artificial Witch Kaijus or whatever crazy grief manipulators have in their tech tree.
 
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We cannot allow ourselves to be held back from doing the right thing by fears of political reprisal.

Also the phrase 'just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right' is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard and whoever came up with the idea of using it unironically is a fool.
 
theauthor said:
I think i just expecting token evil teammate (since she wants to talk to us and all) but instead i got stupid evil that my only attachment is the desire to be rid of her from update and discussion as soon as possible
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I mean, if you want a token "evil" (or more accurately, self-serving) teammate, then there's Yuuki. Girl's team is directly responsible for a number of deaths, and she essentially fought for the highest bidder. But she's smart enough to see which way the wind's blowing, so she's hitched her wagon to ours.

Spectral Waltz said:
We cannot allow ourselves to be held back from doing the right thing by fears of political reprisal.

Also the phrase 'just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right' is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard and whoever came up with the idea of using it unironically is a fool.
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"Just because you're (logically) correct doesn't mean you're (morally) right" is kind of the whole point of PMMM. The whole story is a rejection of the Incubator's cold logical maximization of life and hope in the universe, in favor of doing what's right at the moment.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
I mean, if you want a token "evil" (or more accurately, self-serving) teammate, then there's Yuuki. Girl's team is directly responsible for a number of deaths, and she essentially fought for the highest bidder. But she's smart enough to see which way the wind's blowing, so she's hitched her wagon to ours.
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Why i don't remember her? I think i should reread it then.
 
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