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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Lord Chungus said:
Except... Homura isn't here, and most votes only call her after Rionna's gone.
Unless I did a forget, in which case disregard the above point.
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That's's why some votes call for the timestop via Mami*. I expect Mami and Homura being in a sort of communication** so asking for timestop may take a few seconds but it can be done on request.

* Mami has a piece of Grief we can manipulate even from inside the privacy field
** even telepathy works for asking a timestop, Kyubey already knows
 
Kaizuki said:
[X] Ask Rionna if you may cleanse her.
[X] If that's so, then when and why did she go from securing justice for her sister to taking away the sisters of others? When did she give up, and start spending her time inflicting pain instead of trying to get her sister back?
[X] Don't allow her to leave. Don't allow her to harm you. Don't allow her to harm herself. Use all means necessary.
[X] Talk to her:
-[X] There are/were options. Just as an example, she could have cut a deal with a potential, that she would fulfill their wish and some in exchange for them using their wish to bring back her sister. Somebody somewhere would go for it. Healing is a common enough wish, and not difficult to provide.
-[X] Argue that the only thing she's accomplished with her current track has been to inflict pain on others and deny herself any hope of getting what she actually wants.
-[X] Argue that the incubator tries to provoke isolation and infighting for a reason: less cooperation means less chance of people getting what they want, and thus better rates of witching.
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My trouble is, how do you expect her to reply under duress? If Sabrina is able to successfully restrain her completely, then Sabrina has kidnapped her and is lecturing her from a position of complete control. Riona's only options at that point are to spit in Sabrina's face in defiance or to pretend to agree to whatever Sabrina wants in order to be released (if she can bring herself to do so). The possibility that she's going to be genuinely convinced of anything in a few short lines while being held helpless seems to me to be nonexistent.

"Oh, I see you were right. I've been wasting my life!" <--- Is that really what you're hoping for?

Now I'm not saying that "kidnap and restrain Riona indefinitely while therapy is worked on her" is impossible. After all, Sabrina recently embarked on that course of action with another girl. But in that case working on Riona is going to be a long, slow, process or weeks or months or years. Tossing off a few more minutes of conversation is going to be worth precisely nothing. If the intent is to imprison Riona while giving her forced therapy, then do that. But don't act like not allowing her to leave or harm Sabrina by any means necessary isn't committing to indefinite imprisonment. And if we do, I don't even see that it's worthwhile to immediately continue the conversation. Let her cool down and think things over, convince herself that she's not going to be able to escape, and the long slow process of getting through to her can start from there.
 
Thought: If we end up having to gank Riona, Sabrina+Homura+Kirika combo Homura+Sabrina+Kirika combo:

Get close-ish to Riona from timestop. Keep everyone attached by common, non magical rope.

Keep Homura well away from Kirika and Riona.

Get Kirika to make Anti Magic Enchantments that can be used to cuff Riona.

Make a Magic Booster. Give it to Kirika.

Have Kirika Anti Magic Blast Riona and the whole surrounding area so as to tag the shades, too. The Magic Booster is to power up Kirika for this.

Riona will likely be pulled into Time Stop by this. Cuff her with Anti Magic cuffs quickly.
 
mCooperative said:
I appreciate you mentioning this alternate interpretation, because however relevant it does or does not turn out to be, that's exactly the sort of particular phrasing that I like keeping track of. Much thank!
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That was actually the first interpretation that came to mind for me.

It would not justify her swearing eternal vengeance against her sister's killer, but the raw feeling of betrayal would sure explain why she did so, and why she has no interest in cooperation.
 
The only reason I haven't voted to get Kirika over here is the usual issue of "what if it drops all her shades" which... consequences are ???.
 
Kaizuki isn't wrong

but

I highly doubt we're going to get anything out of her at this point other than more defiance, anger, and recalcitrance

[x] Fine. Release the isolation field.
[x] Tell Riona you regret that she wasn't able to find what she was searching for here.
[x] Given the circumstance, while it's regrettable, I agree it's best that you leave Mitakihara at your earliest convenience. Further I must insist that you don't create anymore shades in our city for any reason or I'm afraid conflict will be unavoidable. That said, wish her a good night.
[x] Leave with Mami. You're done here.
[x] When you're out a considerable range from Riona, contact Homura by phone for a timestop meeting. Update Homura and Mami of the situation. You weren't able to come to any agreement with Riona. Bring up Riona's intentions to leave in the morning and threat assessment. Avoid social bombs.

I'm not giving up, but we need to let her have a break from this if we ever want to get anything useful out of her
 
Briefvoice said:
My trouble is, how do you expect her to reply under duress? If Sabrina is able to successfully restrain her completely, then Sabrina has kidnapped her and is lecturing her from a position of complete control. Riona's only options at that point are to spit in Sabrina's face in defiance or to pretend to agree to whatever Sabrina wants in order to be released (if she can bring herself to do so). The possibility that she's going to be genuinely convinced of anything in a few short lines while being held helpless seems to me to be nonexistent.

"Oh, I see you were right. I've been wasting my life!" <--- Is that really what you're hoping for?

Now I'm not saying that "kidnap and restrain Riona indefinitely while therapy is worked on her" is impossible. After all, Sabrina recently embarked on that course of action with another girl. But in that case working on Riona is going to be a long, slow, process or weeks or months or years. Tossing off a few more minutes of conversation is going to be worth precisely nothing. If the intent is to imprison Riona while giving her forced therapy, then do that. But don't act like not allowing her to leave or harm Sabrina by any means necessary isn't committing to indefinite imprisonment. And if we do, I don't even see that it's worthwhile to immediately continue the conversation. Let her cool down and think things over, convince herself that she's not going to be able to escape, and the long slow process of getting through to her can start from there.
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Briefvoice, if we start having issues with it not being clear whether or not somebody is lying to us, we will make a lie detector, and the Redshirts will rejoice in its existence.
 
Onmur said:
Let heads cool down. Continue at a later point in time. We got time.
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Okay, I see you saying this, but is there anything really keeping Rionna in Mitakihara? Because after a meeting like this I would certainly not wait around for my flight tomorrow when the other girl could at any time change her mind on letting me go. I would take the first chance to leave and book a new flight in some other city.
 
Kaizuki said:
... Just to be sure you understand, I was using the Madoka line as an example, not a suggestion for what a good line here would be. That would be an awful line here.
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Also, sorry for the misinterpretation, but I'm not certain how else we could refute what you quoted there.

"You want to know? I raised my sister's killer," she snarls. "I hate her. I hate her. I want justice, I want my sister back, but I cannae. I can't bring her back. You can't."
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Of course we can refute her want for revenge... though that's a hard sell, considering how her Wish ties her to those feelings.

But Riona's saying she wants her sister back. How do we refute this sentiment?

What do you mean that I'm not getting?

Kaizuki said:
The only reason I haven't voted to get Kirika over here is the usual issue of "what if it drops all her shades" which... consequences are ???.
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At this point, knowing Riona's first shade was not her sister, but her sister's killer, brought back for revenge... I think Anti-Magicking Riona and forcing her to drop all the shades might be therapeutic in the long run. :/

My problem with Anti-Magicking her was that she might be holding a shade for a good reason, not for a bad reason.

So... I would say at this point, forcing her to drop the shades might actually be a good thing from just about any point of view.

Sure, we won't find out whether they can be revived, but they won't be held by someone who shades people out of torture-related wishes.

SilverRune said:
Okay, I see you saying this, but is there anything really keeping Rionna in Mitakihara? Because after a meeting like this I would certainly not wait around for my flight tomorrow when the other girl could at any time change her mind on letting me go. I would take the first chance to leave and book a new flight in some other city.
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Well, I want to ask Homura to keep watch over Riona, and timestop-get us if she tries anything.

I know we'd be imposing on Homura, but I doubt she'd argue against keeping watch on the dangerous meguca.
 
Onmur said:
Let heads cool down. Continue at a later point in time. We got time.
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We don't have non-timestopped time, actually. There's no guarantee she's going to behave when leaving the privacy field, as she already resorted to unprovoked attack once.
Adhoc vote count started by Filraen on Sep 10, 2018 at 3:33 PM, finished with 248 posts and 25 votes.
  • [x] Fine. Release the isolation field.
    [x] Tell Riona you regret that she wasn't able to find what she was searching for here.
    [x] Given the circumstance, while it's regrettable, I agree it's best that you leave Mitakihara at your earliest convenience. Further I must insist that you don't create anymore shades in our city for any reason or I'm afraid conflict will be unavoidable. That said, wish her a good night.
    [x] Leave with Mami. You're done here.
    [x] When you're out a considerable range from Riona, contact Homura by phone for a timestop meeting. Update Homura and Mami of the situation. You weren't able to come to any agreement with Riona. Bring up Riona's intentions to leave in the morning and threat assessment. Avoid social bombs.
    [X] Ask Rionna if you may cleanse her.
    [X] If that's so, then when and why did she go from securing justice for her sister to taking away the sisters of others? When did she give up, and start spending her time inflicting pain instead of trying to get her sister back?
    [X] Don't allow her to leave. Don't allow her to harm you. Don't allow her to harm herself. Use all means necessary.
    [X] Talk to her:
    -[X] There are/were options. Just as an example, she could have cut a deal with a potential, that she would fulfill their wish and some in exchange for them using their wish to bring back her sister. Somebody somewhere would go for it. Healing is a common enough wish, and not difficult to provide.
    -[X] Argue that the only thing she's accomplished with her current track has been to inflict pain on others and deny herself any hope of getting what she actually wants.
    -[X] Argue that the incubator tries to provoke isolation and infighting for a reason: less cooperation means less chance of people getting what they want, and thus better rates of witching.
    [X] Agree to end the conversation, but not before calling Riona out on everything: she's crossed a lot of lines—showing up in your territory without warning, permission, or excuse, trying to mind control you without provocation, making demands in exchange for nothing...
    -[X] Meanwhile, call Mami via grief for an emergency timestop meeting.
    [X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting
    [X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.
    [X] Call Mami for an emergency timestop meeting.
    [X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting
    [X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.
    [X] Agree to end the meeting soon.
    -[X] Tell Riona you regret that she wasn't able to find what she was searching for here.
    [X] Release the Field.
    [X] Before letting her be, call her out and get concessions in exchange for her actions, without pissing her off too badly:
    -[X] Priority: Arrange a new meeting before she leaves.
    -[X] Priority: She does not attack nor use magic against anyone in Mitakihara.
    -[X] She'll answer all our questions next meeting.
    [X] Go. Once you're away:
    -[X] Timestop meeting.
    -[X] Explain everything. Avoid social bombs. Don't take sides, be impartial.
    [X] Kill her
    [X] Promise agree to end the meeting. Because you're sick of it, not because she's asking.
    [X] But first:
    -[X] Call her out. On everything. Trying to use magic on you, threatening you, baiting you, everything.
    --[X] Use this.
    -[X] Get her to agree to concessions, as many as you can get without pissing her off too badly:
    --[X] Priority: Arrange another meeting before she leaves (morning?).
    --[X] She'll stay confined within a location of her choosing for the duration of her stay.
    --[X] She'll answer questions, now or at that later meeting, about:
    ---[X] Our Soul.
    ---[X] Clear Seeds.
    ---[X] Wish Rejection.
    ---[X] The Feather.
    ---[X] How the fuck is her name spelled.
    [X] Once Riona agrees to everything you can get her to, warn her to not try that again and dismiss the Privacy Field.
    -[X] Let Mami know before you dismiss the Field.
    -[X] Watch out in case she tries to pull something.
    [X] Get out. Timestop meeting. Mami hugs.
    -[X] Get Sayaka, Oriko and Kirika. This is important.
    -[X] Ask Kirika to make Anti Magic Enchantments for our group's use while you talk.
    -[X] Explain everything that can be explained about what just happened.
    -[X] Don't take a side. Be as impartial as possible, and do not support any course of action over another.
    [X] gem her
    [X] Try that shit again on anyone in your territory, or hurt anyone in Mitakihara, and her life is forfeit.
    [X] You'll let her go, but she's crossed a lot of lines—showing up in your territory without warning, permission, or excuse, trying to mind control you without provocation, making demands in exchange for nothing—so you'll be taking something in exchange. Your teammate is going to copy her power before she leaves this privacy sphere. It won't harm her or her power in any way, nor can it be used to track or monitor her. But you'll be getting SOMETHING out of all the trouble she's caused you.
    [x] Ensure she doesn't leave this bubble under her own power, either by calling a meeting and then alpha-striking her or by alpha-striking her right now.
    [X] Shrug casually
    -[X] Alright. Wasn't planning on keeping you trapped anyways, anti-spy zone is for spies like QB, not you.
    --[X] Release the field, hug Mami, telepathically request time-stop.
    ---[X] Discuss.
    [X] Cleansing offer.
    [X] If that's so, then when and why did she go from seeking justice to judging people without knowing their crimes, unjustly taking other people's sisters? When did she give up, and start spending her time inflicting pain instead of trying to get her sister back?
    [X] Don't allow her to leave. Don't allow her to harm you. Don't allow her to harm herself. Use all means necessary.
    [X] Talk to her:
    -[X] There are/were options. Just as an example, she could have cut a deal with a potential, that she would fulfill their wish and some in exchange for them using their wish to bring back her sister. Somebody somewhere would go for it. Healing is a common enough wish, and not difficult to provide.
    -[X] Argue that the only thing she's accomplished with her current track has been to inflict pain on others and deny herself any hope of getting what she actually wants.
    -[X] Argue that the incubator tries to provoke isolation and infighting for a reason: less cooperation means less chance of people getting what they want, and thus better rates of witching. She could always punish the architect if she's not satisfied yet. A shot at that, you can provide.
    [X] null
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Onmur said:
Well, I want to ask Homura to keep watch over Riona, and timestop-get us if she tries anything.

I know we'd be imposing on Homura, but I doubt she'd argue against keeping watch on the dangerous meguca.
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Is Homura immune against Rionna's powers (or at least resistant enough against her that she isn't taken out instantly) or do we know her range?
Because I can see Rionna simply taking out Homura in one shot with no warning or chance for her to report anything to us.
 
Onmur said:
Also, sorry for the misinterpretation, but I'm not certain how else we could refute what you quoted there.


Of course we can refute her want for revenge... though that's a hard sell, considering how her Wish ties her to those feelings.

But Riona's saying she wants her sister back. How do we refute this sentiment?

What do you mean that I'm not getting?


At this point, knowing Riona's first shade was not her sister, but her sister's killer, brought back for revenge... I think Anti-Magicking Riona and forcing her to drop all the shades might be therapeutic in the long run. :/

My problem with Anti-Magicking her was that she might be holding a shade for a good reason, not for a bad reason.

So... I would say at this point, forcing her to drop the shades might actually be a good thing from just about any point of view.

Sure, we won't find out whether they can be revived, but they won't be held by someone who shades people out of torture-related wishes.


Well, I want to ask Homura to keep watch over Riona, and timestop-get us if she tries anything.

I know we'd be imposing on Homura, but I doubt she'd argue against keeping watch on the dangerous meguca.
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1: That's what the line about getting someone else to wish for it is about. If you have a better idea, HMU. I don't think I ever directly said you weren't getting anything; I was trying to make sure that there wasn't a misunderstanding kind of for the sake of being sure.

2: If you're up for AMing her... the more I think about that, the more I like the idea. I don't think I'm changing anything until after I go to the gym, but I'm really starting to lean that way.

Briefvoice said:
I don't feel that addressed any of my points.
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Yeah, sorry. Listen, I'm not hoping for anything specific here. We're not really in a position for that like we have been with Oriko and others in the past, where we know the desirable end result. My intention is to play the game as best I can, because that will get better results than not doing so, and what that means is that we need to play Magical Girl Classic. My logic is working forward, not backwards from a desired result.

In essence, my response to "Oh, I see you were right. I've been wasting my life!" is that I don't really expect that, but it would certainly be nice.
 
So, thought:

Riooooooonnnnnna didn't say she turned her sister's killer into a shade. And the specific magic a girl gets is thematically related to the wish, usually not literally the wish itself.

So, it seems to me that it's pretty likely that Rionna didn't wish to turn her sister's killer into a shade. She did something like "I wish my sister's killer was back alive now so I could make her suffer!", and shade summoning was the bonus add-on, like canon-Sayaka's healing.

Which means the sister-killer may STILL be alive, and also explains why Rianno wants to have griefbenders; with grief-manipulation powers, she can keep a captive magical girl from witching out indefinitely, even against that magical girl's wishes, by force-cleansing her.

Also explains a lot of her bitterness, once she stopped to think about it and realized that instead of wishing for the person she hated to be alive again, she could have wished for the person she loved to be alive, but now that ship has sailed.
 
Phigment said:
So, thought:

Riooooooonnnnnna didn't say she turned her sister's killer into a shade. And the specific magic a girl gets is thematically related to the wish, usually not literally the wish itself.

So, it seems to me that it's pretty likely that Rionna didn't wish to turn her sister's killer into a shade. She did something like "I wish my sister's killer was back alive now so I could make her suffer!", and shade summoning was the bonus add-on, like canon-Sayaka's healing.

Which means the sister-killer may STILL be alive, and also explains why Rianno wants to have griefbenders; with grief-manipulation powers, she can keep a captive magical girl from witching out indefinitely, even against that magical girl's wishes, by force-cleansing her.

Also explains a lot of her bitterness, once she stopped to think about it and realized that instead of wishing for the person she hated to be alive again, she could have wished for the person she loved to be alive, but now that ship has sailed.
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I will note that I originally considered voting to ask a bunch of questions about her backstory. There's still an outstanding possibility that she wished to bring her sister back and the wish flubbed. But... Idk.
 
Phigment said:
So, thought:

Riooooooonnnnnna didn't say she turned her sister's killer into a shade. And the specific magic a girl gets is thematically related to the wish, usually not literally the wish itself.

So, it seems to me that it's pretty likely that Rionna didn't wish to turn her sister's killer into a shade. She did something like "I wish my sister's killer was back alive now so I could make her suffer!", and shade summoning was the bonus add-on, like canon-Sayaka's healing.

Which means the sister-killer may STILL be alive, and also explains why Rianno wants to have griefbenders; with grief-manipulation powers, she can keep a captive magical girl from witching out indefinitely, even against that magical girl's wishes, by force-cleansing her.

Also explains a lot of her bitterness, once she stopped to think about it and realized that instead of wishing for the person she hated to be alive again, she could have wished for the person she loved to be alive, but now that ship has sailed.
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I did propose exactly that a page ago, yes. Although apparently too obliquely.

But yes, this and other related possibilities are reasons the situation may be complicated beyond what surface information we know.
 
Kaizuki said:
The important bit is actually the "I recognize your arguments" part. She hasn't said anything of that sort yet. I'm looking for the kind of line that indicates a villain deciding that although the hero's arguments have validity, they can't work with them. All Rionna has done has been to brush off whatever we've said, rather than admitting any sort of validity.
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What even is the argument she should recognize, at this point?

Kaizuki said:
[X] Talk to her:
-[X] There are/were options. Just as an example, she could have cut a deal with a potential, that she would fulfill their wish and some in exchange for them using their wish to bring back her sister. Somebody somewhere would go for it. Healing is a common enough wish, and not difficult to provide.
-[X] Argue that the only thing she's accomplished with her current track has been to inflict pain on others and deny herself any hope of getting what she actually wants.
-[X] Argue that the incubator tries to provoke isolation and infighting for a reason: less cooperation means less chance of people getting what they want, and thus better rates of witching.
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Is this it?
"You fucked up with your wish. You could have save your sister. It's your fault she is still dead and that the most you can do is hate her killer. What you are doing now accomplishes nothing of value. You should cooperate with people like I do, that way everyone will be happy."
(Hyperbole for effect. If I strawmanned-out anything important, I apologize.)​

Not wrong per se, but I definitely don't see her acknowledging it.
 
@Kaizuki The main issue I have with your vote is that Sabrina can't, in good faith, promise to resurrect Riona's sister* because we players don't know, as far as PMMM goes, that True Resurrection is possible without a Madokami-level wish (and even then we aren't sure if the resurrection was actually successful). If you truly intend to act as a Magical Girl Classic towards Riona you don't lie to her.


* an assumption: what Riona wants is reviving her sister, and it's probably what she wished for

Edit: I want to vote for your option because I like your reasoning behind it but I can't vote for that in good conscience until that is addressed in the vote
 
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.


[Q] ASK HOW HER NAME IS SPELLED ALREADY

:V

Kaizuki said:
@Onmur @Redshirt Army if I start pushing to antimagic the crap out of her, are we all good with that?
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I'm likely on track with Anti Magicking Riona, but still going for talking and getting the most we can out of her before then.

My plan, basically:

- Stop now, we're not getting anywhere.
-- Assert some control, arrange another meeting before Riona leaves. (Riona's attempt to use magic on us is social ammunition against her).
-- And of course, let her know killing or using magic on anybody is forbidden.

- Leave.
-- Confer with Mami and Homura.
---If they seem to lean towards ganking Riona now, argue we still need information out of her. If they insist, call Sayaka, O&K. Then get Kirika to start preparing AM enchants while we re-explain to everyone else.

- Homu and/or Sayaka keep watch over Riona overnight. Maybe with an antimagic enchantment tuned to them for possible protection.
-- Hell, if there was a night to try to see if we can do without sleep, it would be tonight.

- Meet with Riona again. Try to get information about:
-- Our Soul.
-- Wish rejection (Oriko. Kyouko maybe).
-- Clear Seeds.
-- The Feather.
-- Edinburg (possible consequences of taking down Riona).
-- How the fuck her name is spelled.

- Since when where you under the impression I was actually gonna let you leave and go home and keep murdering people?
-- Take Riona down as safely as possible. Including Time-Stop, Anti-Magic and Anti-Magic Cuffs. Riona keeping her shades seems a 100% negative thing for everyone involved, including her.
-- Yuki we got a new playmate for Anri.
 
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Filraen said:
because we players know, as far as PMMM goes, that True Resurrection isn't possible without a Madokami-level wish
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I don't know that. Has it been confirmed by the author?

And even if it were so, *Sabrina* is a Madokami-level wish, and everything we accomplish flows from that wish. It's not a lie, neither on the players' nor Sabrina's point of view, to hope that we can resurrect her sister, or anyone else.
 
[x] Kaizuki

Re: True Resurrection wishes, putting aside Amy literally happened in the first timeline, Mami's parents were already dead when she contracted and one of her main impetuses for witching out is Kyubey dropping that she could have revived them and saved all three of them trivially.

So, True Resurrection via wishes isn't fucking difficult or impressive, apparently.
 
Aris Katsaris said:
I don't know that. Has it been confirmed by the author?
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As far as themes go the fic is supposed to follow PMMM setting rules; in PMMM resurrection attempts were Kazumi (crazy when having her original's memories), Sayaka (Madokami-level wish, sane but imprefect memories: it isn't sure she's the real Sayaka), some other meguca who lest her memory in the process.

No real successes.



(Food for thought: if we reallly are Madokami's extension of her "fix everything" wish... do we really need to revive Riona's sister to fix the scenario?)
 
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