Well, I could tell Diplomacy isn't going to work, ever since the chapter where "reasonable, highly spoken of, compared to Mami, Rionna" was replaced with "confrontational, does horrific stuff in the name of 'justice', and maybe not always 'justice', Rionna", but was willing to let players at least try.

But with you sounding off on the moral excusability of Rionna's actions, there doesn't appear to be any real options for the quest.

So how did the quest end up in this pickle? I blame bad decisions in storytelling based on a bias for preferential treatment given to certain long term posters and use of the narrative to flip the context of debates, so that the edgelords with murderboners will be less incensed and the posters they were arguing with will be provoked into getting more heated in their debates.

And frankly, the quality of the Quest has plummeted during this dumpsterfire!

Just for the record, I am not one who normally tells someone what they should and should not write. Writers should write for themselves, not what others think would make for a good story - even if it's a participitatory medium such as a thread.

And you are not the only writer, that I have noticed, to have occasionally dipped into this kind of behavior, unconsciously or deliberate.

However, you have repeatedly engaged in this behavior throughout the thread, and you are being rather blatent about it in the current arguement.

To the point that I, who am philosophically opposed to Rewrites or Reboots of any kind, would recommend you Reboot the Quest, fresh from any arguments, and refrain from adapting the narrative in order to rephrase debates.

Edit: I forgot to explain why I recommend a Reboot.

Your last chapter wasn't any good. It was vaguely the same as the previous two or three chapters and I could hear the train whistle for the QM Railroad. And yet posters are so invested in your Quest, that several have probably automatically liked it even though they did not actually enjoy it.

She rubbed Sabrina's face in how horrifically awful her actions were. Beforehand, there was every indication that she was aware of how incredibly evil she was being and acting, and quite frankly just didn't care. Then she says she doesn't want a fight.:V

It would make a bit more sense if Sabrina had really fucked up the social and made her lash out hard, but I never got the indication that it was like that.

So, yeah, I don't really blame some people too much for going straight for murder/gemming or just getting really frustrated with her.

And I kind of also feel like this came out of nowhere. There was basically no hint at all to this other than a incredibly vague warning from Oriko, despite Nadia and Oriko probably knowing about her beforehand.

Actually the "no hint" part is wrong. Still feels like there was an elephant in the room that some people neglected to mention.
 
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And I kind of also feel like this came out of nowhere. There was basically no hint at all to this other than a incredibly vague warning from Oriko, despite Nadia and Oriko probably knowing about her beforehand.
Her Social is a bit rusty, I'll wager this is the longest hostile conversation she has had in ages. We didn't fight her, everybody else did.

I'm also keying on the discrepancy in her press versus her actions. The logic provides several avenues for this to happen... One of those is that Rionna is vulnerable to manipulation. In that case, who did it? Further, does Rionna care? Her front to us is all about super independent and isolated "her own rights" thinking. If someone were pulling her string for a while now, that should be a sore point for her.

We're probably going to ask Nadia about that in the future.
I have every intention. Once we have prepared and researched, because she is not new to her game.
 
Your last chapter wasn't any good. It was vaguely the same as the previous two or three chapters and I could hear the train whistle for the QM Railroad. And yet posters are so invested in your Quest, that several have probably automatically liked it even though they did not actually enjoy it.

How dare you presume to speak for what I enjoy in life???

You came here and spoke these words, that Firnagzen had ought to do a reboot, throw away this entire quest, because I do not like what he has written? I looked at this story post, and I thought, "this is good," and then I slept. And while I slept, you came here, and you spoke these words, claiming they were on my behalf???

How dare you?

How dare you?

I burned in my own personal hell for two years in order that I could enjoy the world again, and you, some stranger I know nothing of, would dare to speak, to presume, to lie about my feelings as to what I enjoy?

I will enjoy what I please. Not a particle less. I enjoy this quest, I breathed a sigh of relief and happiness at this last story post, and let no one speak falsehood to the contrary, much less such falsehood as part of an argument advocating nothing less than the destruction of that which I enjoy!

If you don't like this quest, then I would suggest you leave.
 
"And that'd be bleeding fantastic, once that were what I was doing," Rionna snorts, and looks away. "I've tried those things, so I have, and I want those things."
Guys ... what kind of wish gives soul manipulation? I think she's not working on grief manipulation, she's working on outright resurrection of the dead. And views herself as a kind of phylactery for them until then.

Alternatively, perhaps her goal is to be able to pull her own soul out of the soul gem
 
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speak for what I enjoy in life

because I do not like what he has written

to speak, to presume, to lie about my feelings as to what I enjoy

Ctrl+F "Kaizuki" gives no results on the page with that post.
The most they say is "several have probably automatically liked it even though they did not actually enjoy it". Not only are you not necessarily included among the several, they only say "probably".

You're free to advocate against a reboot (I am also strongly against it), or refute some of the points they bring up.
But please don't melodramatically act like that was a personal attack against you, because it clearly wasn't.
 
Guys, if this falls out, and we can't help her at all, can we still ask for help with dewitching the night she's here?
I mean, this is something every Meguca should want, considering that it's their otherwise inevitable end state.
I'm asking because it seems like some people think she'll leave right after this conversation or something.
 
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[x]You said it yourself that you want those things eventually.
[x]Let her get a closer look at the clear seed if she's interested. Explain your current research angle.
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 18, 2018 at 2:36 PM, finished with 108 posts and 10 votes.

  • [x] She won't give it up now, fine. But would she keep those souls trapped, if it truly became no longer necessary?
    [x] You're not going to invade her privacy and you don't want to, but you can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
    [x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
    [x] But. But. If any of her shades are someone she wanted to save... you won't ask questions, and you'll provide all the assistance she could want with that.
    [x] Does that deal sound like what she needs?
    [X] If you don't explain what you're after, I won't be able to help you. And if I can't solve the problem that forces you to lobotomize and enslave people's souls, then we're going to come to blows one day.
    [X] And that's not a fight you have any hope of winning. Your methods make too many enemies too easily, and we can generate the most valuable resource in the world, along with enormous goodwill. You can't stand against the world alone, or even close.
    [X] You don't have to decide to give up what you have now. Let us try to get you want you truly want first, and then you can decide.
    [x] Okay. Then I guess thats it.
    -[x]One thing, do you know anyone else I can contact with soul related abilities? Since you won't help me and I need input on it with my research team.
    [X] Show her the Clear Seed. Explain what she's seeing: the sheer capacity, the quiescent nature of the witch, the way it absorbs hope magic.
    -[x] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
    [x] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
    -[x] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
    --[x] And if there's something else she wants, we can make that possible, too.
    ---[X]No guarantees, obviously, we're powerful not omnipotent, but we can't negotiate when any attempt at finding out what she actually wants is stonewalled with variations of "None of your business/not giving up my power/your soul", the latter of which she has to know isn't going to happen.
    [x] Show her the Clear Seed. Explain what she's seeing: the sheer capacity, the quiescent nature of the witch, the way it absorbs hope magic.
    -[x] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
    [x] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
    -[x] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
    --[x] And if there's something else she wants, we can probably make that possible, too.
    [X] gem her
    [x]You said it yourself that you want those things eventually.
    [x]Let her get a closer look at the clear seed if she's interested. Explain your current research angle.
 
Ctrl+F "Kaizuki" gives no results on the page with that post.
The most they say is "several have probably automatically liked it even though they did not actually enjoy it". Not only are you not necessarily included among the several, they only say "probably".

You're free to advocate against a reboot (I am also strongly against it), or refute some of the points they bring up.
But please don't melodramatically act like that was a personal attack against you, because it clearly wasn't.

That's an awfully interesting stance. Would you care to tell me more about how that post wasn't arguing that nobody is enjoying what's going on, or how it didn't outright accuse Firn of manipulating the thread as if he were the Illuminati, or how it wasn't really quite thoroughly offensive, presumptive, and disgraceful?

Obviously it wasn't written as a personal attack against me. It completely succeeded in being an attack against everyone who enjoys the quest. As a member of that group who has gone through far too much to tolerate that, I took personal offense to it. You accuse me of being melodramatic, but you know nothing of what I've been through, nor have you ever spoken with me in any depth. Firnagzen has. Vebyast has. Tayta Malikai has, to a lesser extent.

If anything, the things I said were colossal understatements, because dredging things up to their full extent is just purposelessly hurting myself. I've cried tears of relief over being able to smile and laugh at this quest once again. What have you known, to judge me so?
 
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I know some of these points have been brought up by now, but I'm gonna post my thoughts:

First, as an aside, Firn has repeated that Riona doesn't feel remorse for her actions. Then, while you could read this as 'no redemption, prepare plans to take her out and save Edinburgh', you can also read it as 'make her feel remorse'.

Of course, we could also just be OK working with Riona as is, as long as she abides by our demands to stop killing people, and over time, to release her shades.

But getting her to regret her actions would be the path to the golden ending, in this case.



On the update itself, Riona's accent is slipping, she's agitated, nervous, maybe because we're simply pressing her - and yet we're not picking a fight, she herself calls it smart to keep insisting until she talks.

It's possible the remarks about de-Witching, infinite cleansing, and her working alone might be part of the reason why she's agitated, but I'm leaning on the fact we're just insisting, and insisting, and not causing a fight. This is not what Riona's good at handling.




Another point, we know Riona's taking people's actual Souls. We've been incentivized to use all knowledge we have, including OOC knowledge.



With these thoughts in mind, and others I forget right now, I'm going back to an older plan. First I need to ask, though:

@Firnagzen, once you become less busy, would it be possible to have a 'longer' (IC) update? Not necessarily longer in words, OOC, but rather, have more time pass IC.

Instead of voting on actions and elaborating point by point, instead giving Sabrina directions to work with? I think we could benefit from some Brinapilot.






[] Settle in, be (more) patient (than Riona). Prepare for a long, long talk. Also for long silences.

[] Approach the conversation looking to outlast Riona's stubbornness.
-[] Order and implementation of voting lines in accordance to new developments.

[] Offer refreshements (drinks, snacks; don't leave the bubble yourselves).

[] Press points when opportune:
-[] Your need to help people. To give people like her and her victims a chance to do better.
-[] She won't achieve her goal by refusing help.
--[] If it matters so much, she'll need to learn to make compromises.
-[] Her shades are actual Souls. What she's doing in inhumane.
--[] If there are shades who gave their Souls voluntarily, that's their decision.
--[] If Riona wants to revive them, that aligns with your goals.
--[] If she wants them for protection, offer alternatives.

[] Talk about other things when needed.
-[] Anything she knows about Walpurgisnacht?
-[] How's the Lichbomb seen outside of Japan?

[] Take advantage of the opportunity to consult a Soul 'expert'.
-[] What does your Soul look like? (And a normal soul, for comparison?)
-[] Wish rejection: describe Oriko's symptoms.
-[] Talk about de-Witching. Let Riona examine Aurora.



Did you expect anything else? ;)
I'd advocate voting for the first section just because it's a good break in the conversation, and I'm tired of trying to bat conversation bullets non-stop. It's a chance to take a break and have something lighter before we continue.

I'd put a line in asking if she can see our thoughts and feelings within our soul. We're pretty sure, and referring to it can get it into the open. Also asking her what she needs for her flask, what's in it, could make for a new avenue.

-
Re: Quester Feelings. Yes I am frustrated by Rionna. A month of beating our head against a conversation, in contrast to the events preceding it, is disheartening. I want to leave, ignore the quest for a while, but can't because leaving voids responsibility. Im afraid to leave because I feel like we're on the edge of losing hard. If I don't stay and try to nudge for a positive outcome its my fault if we fail.
 
OK, so... I get that Riona doesn't get us. And I believe she's brutally honest, if nothing else, so when she says it's smart to keep talking? Keep talking.

So, focusing a little on the here and now, I think we could take a moment to step back and put things into perspective.

Riona's out of cider, get her and ourselves something to drink; rather ask Mami to get such, since we shouldn't leave the bubble. I wonder what drinks Homu's got in her shield.

Take the time to explain why we're being so insistent, and why we're gonna keep insisting if we have to talk Riona's ears off. Explain our goals, our need to help, the fact that Riona is amongst that select group (consisting of everyone) of people we want to help.

If we were just a morally offended meguca, we probably would have attacked her already. But no, Riona's one of the people we've set out to save.

For that, we need to make her actually consider her actions. She refuses to do so, probably out of self preservation. Even if we can't prove it, we can confirm she's taking actual Souls. It's inhumane, and we can let her know that. We can try and make her face the reality of her actions.

Maybe we can make her feel regret.

Right now, we just need to be more patient than Riona. Insist until she gives in. Alternate topics if it looks like we're pushing too much, too quick, but keep pushing.

Riona's not good at this. If we had tried to take her head off, she would've felt at home. Social is what she can't handle, so it's where we can keep pushing her.



[] Remain calm, be patient. You can outlast Riona's stubbornness.
-[] Alternate pressing main points with other topics.

[] Offer and get refreshments (without leaving the bubble).

[] Explain and reaffirm your goals:
-[] To help Magical Girls, to break the system.
-[] Your intentions when Wishing.
-[] People can do horrible things, when forced...
--[] Your goal isn't to take away Riona's power, but to give her a chance to do better.

[] Points to press:
-[] Riona won't achieve her goal by refusing help.
--[] If this really matters to her, she'll need to make compromises.
-[] Her shades are actual Souls. What she's doing is inhumane.
--[] You won't begrudge her keeping voluntarily given Souls.
--[] You'd gladly help if she wanted to revive them.
--[] If she wants them for protection, there's alternatives.
-[] We.
--[] Can.
--[] Help.

[] Other topics:
-[] What does your Soul look like?
-[] How do her powers work?
-[] Wish rejection: describe Oriko's symptoms.
-[] De-Witching.
--[] Let Riona examine Aurora.
--[] Explain your experiments so far.


I'd advocate voting for the first section just because it's a good break in the conversation, and I'm tired of trying to bat conversation bullets non-stop. It's a chance to take a break and have something lighter before we continue.

I'd put a line in asking if she can see our thoughts and feelings within our soul. We're pretty sure, and referring to it can get it into the open. Also asking her what she needs for her flask, what's in it, could make for a new avenue.

A bit of a break in the conversation is what I'm looking at. Get Riona (and ourselves) a drink, and while we're waiting, maybe explain ourselves?

She cocks her head, staring at you. Almost staring through you. "Are ye not... no. You don't want to fight me, but you does be wanting me to stop."
Riona's trying to figure us out to some extent. We can help with that.

[Q] YOU KNUCLEHEAD I WAS LITERALLY MADE TO HELP PEOPLE LIKE YOU. ALLOW ME.
 
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[] Settle in, be (more) patient (than Riona). Prepare for a long, long talk. Also for long silences.

[] Approach the conversation looking to outlast Riona's stubbornness.
-[] Order and implementation of voting lines in accordance to new developments.

[] Offer refreshements (drinks, snacks; don't leave the bubble yourselves).

[] Press points when opportune:
-[] Your need to help people. To give people like her and her victims a chance to do better.
-[] She won't achieve her goal by refusing help.
--[] If it matters so much, she'll need to learn to make compromises.
-[] Her shades are actual Souls. What she's doing in inhumane.
--[] If there are shades who gave their Souls voluntarily, that's their decision.
--[] If Riona wants to revive them, that aligns with your goals.
--[] If she wants them for protection, offer alternatives.

[] Talk about other things when needed.
-[] Anything she knows about Walpurgisnacht?
-[] How's the Lichbomb seen outside of Japan?

[] Take advantage of the opportunity to consult a Soul 'expert'.
-[] What does your Soul look like? (And a normal soul, for comparison?)
-[] Wish rejection: describe Oriko's symptoms.
-[] Talk about de-Witching. Let Riona examine Aurora.

I really like this approach, although I agree with CornyBones above that we should ask more details about her powers somewhere in there. I think that trying to run a moment-by moment conversation against her is going to just get more frustrating as we go. It makes a lot more sense to pick a general approach and some topics and stick with that.

Also, somewhere in there we should create a chibi for Mami and let her know this is going to be a long conversation. This approach would even give us a good chance to try mitagate the worries about a grief trance by just giving Riona a heads up about what we're doing ahead of time. We can wait until we get to a point where we have a better feel as to whether Riona would take advantage of that kind of opening.


Another thought. We're bringing up some of what we know about souls here, but - and this kind of sounds like a bad idea but I still want to throw it out there - what if we tell her that we have good reason to believe that there is a meguca heaven? Culturally, that's likely to be a hot button issue to her, and it's especially relevant in regards to her own powers. If we're supposed to be making her feel bad about this, explaining our understanding that her powers are keeping the souls from heaven is at least a novel direction to go with that. Of course, then we have to figure out what to tell her about our knowledge, and how much she can afford to know (probably basically nothing beyond "this is something we're aware of"), and how the Incubators are likely to respond if they hear more about this, etc. It's a lot of extra stuff to worry about, but it seems like something that might help? Maybe?

[X] Onmur
 
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I know some of these points have been brought up by now, but I'm gonna post my thoughts:

First, as an aside, Firn has repeated that Riona doesn't feel remorse for her actions. Then, while you could read this as 'no redemption, prepare plans to take her out and save Edinburgh', you can also read it as 'make her feel remorse'.

Of course, we could also just be OK working with Riona as is, as long as she abides by our demands to stop killing people, and over time, to release her shades.

But getting her to regret her actions would be the path to the golden ending, in this case.



On the update itself, Riona's accent is slipping, she's agitated, nervous, maybe because we're simply pressing her - and yet we're not picking a fight, she herself calls it smart to keep insisting until she talks.

It's possible the remarks about de-Witching, infinite cleansing, and her working alone might be part of the reason why she's agitated, but I'm leaning on the fact we're just insisting, and insisting, and not causing a fight. This is not what Riona's good at handling.




Another point, we know Riona's taking people's actual Souls. We've been incentivized to use all knowledge we have, including OOC knowledge.



With these thoughts in mind, and others I forget right now, I'm going back to an older plan. First I need to ask, though:

@Firnagzen, once you become less busy, would it be possible to have a 'longer' (IC) update? Not necessarily longer in words, OOC, but rather, have more time pass IC.

Instead of voting on actions and elaborating point by point, instead giving Sabrina directions to work with? I think we could benefit from some Brinapilot.






[] Settle in, be (more) patient (than Riona). Prepare for a long, long talk. Also for long silences.

[] Approach the conversation looking to outlast Riona's stubbornness.
-[] Order and implementation of voting lines in accordance to new developments.

[] Offer refreshements (drinks, snacks; don't leave the bubble yourselves).

[] Press points when opportune:
-[] Your need to help people. To give people like her and her victims a chance to do better.
-[] She won't achieve her goal by refusing help.
--[] If it matters so much, she'll need to learn to make compromises.
-[] Her shades are actual Souls. What she's doing in inhumane.
--[] If there are shades who gave their Souls voluntarily, that's their decision.
--[] If Riona wants to revive them, that aligns with your goals.
--[] If she wants them for protection, offer alternatives.

[] Talk about other things when needed.
-[] Anything she knows about Walpurgisnacht?
-[] How's the Lichbomb seen outside of Japan?

[] Take advantage of the opportunity to consult a Soul 'expert'.
-[] What does your Soul look like? (And a normal soul, for comparison?)
-[] Wish rejection: describe Oriko's symptoms.
-[] Talk about de-Witching. Let Riona examine Aurora.



Did you expect anything else? ;)

OK, so... I get that Riona doesn't get us. And I believe she's brutally honest, if nothing else, so when she says it's smart to keep talking? Keep talking.

So, focusing a little on the here and now, I think we could take a moment to step back and put things into perspective.

Riona's out of cider, get her and ourselves something to drink; rather ask Mami to get such, since we shouldn't leave the bubble. I wonder what drinks Homu's got in her shield.

Take the time to explain why we're being so insistent, and why we're gonna keep insisting if we have to talk Riona's ears off. Explain our goals, our need to help, the fact that Riona is amongst that select group (consisting of everyone) of people we want to help.

If we were just a morally offended meguca, we probably would have attacked her already. But no, Riona's one of the people we've set out to save.

For that, we need to make her actually consider her actions. She refuses to do so, probably out of self preservation. Even if we can't prove it, we can confirm she's taking actual Souls. It's inhumane, and we can let her know that. We can try and make her face the reality of her actions.

Maybe we can make her feel regret.

Right now, we just need to be more patient than Riona. Insist until she gives in. Alternate topics if it looks like we're pushing too much, too quick, but keep pushing.

Riona's not good at this. If we had tried to take her head off, she would've felt at home. Social is what she can't handle, so it's where we can keep pushing her.



[X] Remain calm, be patient. You can outlast Riona's stubbornness.
-[X] Alternate pressing main points with other topics.

[X] Offer and get refreshments (without leaving the bubble).

[X] Explain and reaffirm your goals:
-[X] To help Magical Girls, to break the system.
-[X] Your intentions when Wishing.
-[X] People can do horrible things, when forced...
--[X] Your goal isn't to take away Riona's power, but to give her a chance to do better.


[X] Points to press:
-[X] Riona won't achieve her goal by refusing help.
--[X] If this really matters to her, she'll need to make compromises.
-[X] Her shades are actual Souls. What she's doing is inhumane.
--[X] You won't begrudge her keeping voluntarily given Souls.
--[X] You'd gladly help if she wanted to revive them.
--[X] If she wants them for protection, there's alternatives.
-[X] We.
--[X] Can.
--[X] Help.

[X] Other topics:
-[X] What does your Soul look like?
-[X] How do her powers work?
-[X] Wish rejection: describe Oriko's symptoms.
-[X] De-Witching.
--[X] Let Riona examine Aurora.
--[X] Explain your experiments so far.




A bit of a break in the conversation is what I'm looking at. Get Riona (and ourselves) a drink, and while we're waiting, maybe explain ourselves?


Riona's trying to figure us out to some extent. We can help with that.

[Q] YOU KNUCLEHEAD I WAS LITERALLY MADE TO HELP PEOPLE LIKE YOU. ALLOW ME.


Like your assessment.

[x] Onmur

Seems in line with my general examining things thoughts things. Will be busy for a good bit; leaving my vote with you for the moment, whatever it ends up.

Also:

"And you're gonna keep me here, keep me talking, until I spill my guts?" she muses. "Probably smart of you."

She looks thoughtfully at you.

"No," she says. "I'm not giving up what I have."

What does she have?

Speaking in context with shades, yes, but this is something hers. This reads as something she's defending? Not the same tone that I got out of her dialogue when talking about the shades earlier; that bit about her "collection" didn't sound like this.

"I hold on to the shades, or they fade away," Rionna says, folding her arms. "I've spent years building my collection. It's what I have to use to secure my city."

What's the emphasis on "have"? English is weird. Is this "have" as in "this is what I possess, this is its purpose"? Or is this "have" as in "this is what I possess, and it's all I can use, I need it for this purpose and cannot do otherwise"?

Different implications.

Collection is what she has, but Her City is what she has.

"And you're gonna keep me here, keep me talking, until I spill my guts?" she muses. "Probably smart of you."

She looks thoughtfully at you.

"No," she says. "I'm not giving up what I have."

What does she have that it sounds like we are demanding- because it sounds like we are demanding something unintentionally that is not just the shades? Even beyond the idea that some of her shades might be also her people, her people, family friends and team.

This sounds like we are trying to get her to give up a lifetime- something she's eked out and achieved?

Something she built.

This is not the tone of voice that talks about her shades like:

"Judge all y' want," Rionna says, shrugging. She caps her flask and sets it aside. "What's done is done is done. I can take Souls. Magical girl, normal people. Leaves 'em brain-dead, and..." She straightens and holds a hand out to the side, as if to take someone's hand.

"I control their Souls as shades, allowing me to use their powers," she says, and smiles, razor sharp and satisfied. "Don't worry, I only do it to those who would deserve it. As for makin' examples... there's a shade or two here and there who're obliged to give warnings, now and always."

"I'unno," Rionna says with a shrug. "They can think and problemsolve, suchlike. But not really aware. 's more like they're asleep and sleep-walking under my control."

"Ach," she says, waving a careless hand at you. "Don't worry about it. It's not good people I do it to. Most of them are already murderers by the time I get to 'em, so they are. Last one had her and her posse livin' high on the backs of a good couple score Witches and all."

She talks about her shades like weapons; like punishments; like itemization; like assets; like justice; like automatons and stolen corpses, if anything.

Not good. It's what we objected to in the first place, isn't it? People aren't items. There's some contention about the truth of whether Riona's shades are conscious, whether she's lying to us, or to us and herself, or if she's telling the truth, and there's contention about how much that matters, to different threadgoers. And- Firn has confirmed Riona has their souls, their real souls. Firn has confirmed that Riona has done awful things, and we are not to excuse them, even if they can be justified. Firn has confirmed that the authorial intention is that Riona has not displayed remorse for what she has said she has done- the things that she is confirmed to have done. Interestingly, Firn has not confirmed whether or not she is telling the truth about the consciousness of the shades, or what she thinks about the matter.

So they are assets at most to her, objects at least. From her dialogue and how she talks about them, that's what it looks like.

But:

"And you're gonna keep me here, keep me talking, until I spill my guts?" she muses. "Probably smart of you."

She looks thoughtfully at you.

"No," she says. "I'm not giving up what I have."

She talks about this like sentiment.

What does she have?

There is something different here, and I don't think we know what it is.

I second the motion to take a timestop road trip to Edinburgh while she's on the plane back if we leave this conversation without a successful negotiation. I don't care if she's defending a coffee shop AU she's been playing out Walpurgisnacht-stage-play-style with her shades in her basement, there's something we don't have and there's an emotional dissonance that makes me think it's not the shades as "possessions she has a right to own" that she's being so unyielding about.

It feels like if we don't stumble upon a successful negotiation on our own, that there's something to find there.

Also, if we plan to swipe her gem I want a better tactical situation than "in a crowded hotel in our hometown". Might as well take the opportunity to reconnoiter if we can; if timestop like we've been considering relying on is in any way viable for planning at all, then we might as well also take the opportunity to go looking for missing information; Sabrina actually going with would solve the issues we'd had with the idea of travel time or having to throw Sayaka on a roadtrip with Homura mid-conversation.

Also, at this point, we've sat in this whole situation long enough that I'm genuinely interested in figuring out What The Actual Fuck Riona, and would be rather disappointed if we never got around to actually finding out.
 
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I really do think Sabrina should pull back on the Shades topic. Very least, Sabrina should be helping to come up with a replacement for them. So explaining that she knows Magical Girls without a soul specialty can make them, means Riona should be capable of artificial souls. In fact...

Have artificial souls built from the ground up to replace Seeds. Sure there's a lot to figure out, like making sure they can't evolve into true intelligence or become Witches or Wraiths... Yet it also seems the clearest way to replace Clear Seeds. Essentially, treat them as the false AI programs we already have- There's only the illusion of personality.

This could also be a potential way of bypassing Oriko's and Kyouko's Wish Rejection: Make Soul AI copying their abilities, like Michiru and the Kazumi Sisters. Granted there's a lot of trial and error here, but figuring it out means they won't have to resolve their painful personal issues.
 
Now that I think about it, Nadia not mentioning her soul stealing is weird. She can't not know about it, and it seems like very useful information. Hopefully there's more to it than "Firn forgot".
That apparent contradiction gets more interesting when you realize:

- Nadia has told us about those she won't talk about: the Iowa group, the Chinese, etc.
- Nadia seems to have completely believed us with the cleansing (and seed clearing) trip.
- Nadia seemed interested at knowing we'd meet Riona. Not, say, worried.
- We provided Nadia a Clear Seed.
- Nadia has been willing to vouch for us, with both that adult meguca and that US group we met via IRC

It's... weird, at least, but I'm willing to believe there's an explanation for that.

Guys, if this falls out, and we can't help her at all, can we still ask for help with dewitching the night she's here?
I mean, this is something every Meguca should want, considering that it's their otherwise inevitable end state.
I'm asking because it seems like some people think she'll leave right after this conversation or something.
I conversations fail I don't believe Riona would help us dewitching or whatever: Riona would be gemmed or dead. I don't believe many of us are willing to let Riona go free: Riona has made terrible things (even QM confirmed that) and Sabrina would consider a failing for every terrible thing Riona would do afterwards, because Sabrina would have enabled it by letting Riona leave.

Doesn't she deserve a second chance too? For all the things she's done, she's trapped in this system, too. She's done monstrous things. But anything you enable is on your hands, if only by letting her walk away.

Also, somewhere in there we should create a chibi for Mami and let her know this is going to be a long conversation. This approach would even give us a good chance to try mitagate the worries about a grief trance by just giving Riona a heads up about what we're doing ahead of time. We can wait until we get to a point where we have a better feel as to whether Riona would take advantage of that kind of opening.
Doesn't a chibi out us in a trance? I know full-sized clones do but I'm not sure about chibis. Anyway, there are more options than that: talk by vibrating the grief to make sound or form words outside Riona's view.
 
several have probably automatically liked it even though they did not actually enjoy it.
you spoke these words, claiming they were on my behalf???
You were not only not mentioned, but if you actually enjoyed the chapter, you are not included among the 'probably'

And yet you presume to speak for them.
Would you care to tell me more about how that post wasn't arguing that nobody is enjoying what's going on, or how it didn't outright accuse Firn of manipulating the thread as if he were the Illuminati, or how it wasn't really quite thoroughly offensive, presumptive, and disgraceful?
This question was not directed towards me, but you are shifting the goalposts on the poster that called you out. As well as asking them to defend a position they never took in the first place.

LendaV never took the position that what I said wasn't accusatory, offensive, presumptive, and disgraceful. They merely pointed out that I probably wasn't presuming to speak for you.

several have probably automatically liked it even though they did not actually enjoy it.

Unless you "did not actually enjoy it.", then you were defininitely not "presumed" to be "spoken for" by me, or anyone else.
 
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I want to leave, ignore the quest for a while, but can't because leaving voids responsibility. Im afraid to leave because I feel like we're on the edge of losing hard. If I don't stay and try to nudge for a positive outcome its my fault if we fail.
That's pretty close to my own feelings on the matter. Being in this thread isn't much fun to me and hasn't been for a while. More like an unpleasant responsibility that I don't get paid for. When I see it pop up in my Unread Threads queue, I feel not excitement but dread at what new arguments might be breaking out. The days the thread was locked were like a vacation. But I like this story and I'm afraid of what might happen if I turn my back on it.

In that way, it's rather more like actual democracy than I'd care for. :p

This arc with Rionna didn't cause this, as frustrating as it's been. This feeling has been growing for a long time. But this situation does seem almost custom-made to bring out the worst in us, and this feeling has been constantly at the forefront since she arrived.
 
I don't believe many of us are willing to let Riona go free: Riona has made terrible things (even QM confirmed that) and Sabrina would consider a failing for every terrible thing Riona would do afterwards, because Sabrina would have enabled it by letting Riona leave.
My passive-aggressive post earlier was dismissed for its tone, but nobody actually addressed the contents which are pretty relevant here.

Removing her from action or otherwise rendering her unable to defend her city will cause mass deaths of innocents, new contracts and likely territory wars.

How is all that considered to be more acceptable than letting her return home?
 
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