Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- London, 1935. August.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Kaizuki
Wow, not a lot of votes in the scheme of things. I wonder why. Are other people uncomfortable with how tense of a situation this has the potential to be? Are people cooling off from the earlier salt? Or am I just misremembering how many voters PMAS usually gets?
Wow, not a lot of votes in the scheme of things. I wonder why. Are other people uncomfortable with how tense of a situation this has the potential to be? Are people cooling off from the earlier salt? Or am I just misremembering how many voters PMAS usually gets?
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
If anything, this is slightly on the high side.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Tally incoming
Point Insertion pt. 25
Your patience is just about at its end. Just about, but not quite.
What does she expect? Sure, you absolutely despise what she's done. What does she expect? You can't really imagine that she's so bad with people as to not realise that declaring she Soul-lobotomies people and enslaves said Souls isn't something that engenders trust or goodwill in any way, shape, or form. And...
What did she expect? You can't help but come back to that. She flew here from Edinburgh, and she must have wanted something out of this. You have... trouble reading her, but she was rude and abrasive from the very first moment she laid eyes on you. But she can read your Soul, and perhaps she was disappointed from that very first moment.
She wanted... she doesn't want cleansing from you. She does want the ability to cleanse Soul Gems, or perhaps something adjacent to that. It's why she comes back to her taking your Soul, and maybe, just maybe, that's why she doesn't want it to come to a fight.
That feels right. It feels right.
But-
Why?
She doesn't want your help, even freely offered without strings. She wants your powers for herself, or to develop her own. Is it just a trust issue? Some weird lone wolf mentality? Or something she wants to do with that ability?
No, you know what? Your patience is just about reaching its end. You have a drop more to spare, and perhaps a bit more. You exhale, letting yourself wrap Grief around Mami's shoulders for another gentle hug that's not quite as good as the real thing but will suffice for now, and she-
She's alert, you can tell that much. She leans into the hug, warm golden eyes fluttering, but you can feel the set of her shoulders as she pretends to focus on the enchantment in her hands. And you can see how her gaze flickers subtly over the room, taking it all in with a sharp eye. And then there's a faint hum of her magic, her ribbons winding so slowly through the room you wouldn't notice that there were there if you didn't know exactly what to look for.
Alright.
"Yeah, I hate what you've done," you admit, and almost smile. It feels oddly good to get that out, even though you have to speak quickly to get your words in before Rionna says anything. "But I figure that you won't have to do it any more if you'd let me help you."
Or even if she doesn't, one way or another.
Rionna opens her mouth, and it's your turn to cut her off.
"What are you doing, anyway, that you're so sure I can't help?" you ask.
"It doesn't concern you," Rionna says dismissively.
"I thought you might say that, really," you say thoughtfully, meeting her eyes. "So... well, I know you're trying to work out renewable cleansing with all the Grief controller's shades. You said as much, and... hm. I think you're working on de-Witching in some capacity, or at the very least you've dabbled in it."
"It doesn't concern you," Rionna snaps.
"I mean, if those are your goals, then frankly, you're shooting yourself in the foot trying to work alone," you say, folding your arms. "I mean, you said it yourself - everyone's tried it. More specifically, I am trying it, both of them. They're both high on my priority list."
"And that'd be bleeding fantastic, once that were what I was doing," Rionna snorts, and looks away. "I've tried those things, so I have, and I want those things."
She cocks her head, staring at you. Almost staring through you. "Are ye not... no. You don't want to fight me, but you does be wanting me to stop."
"I... yeah," you say, shrugging. "I don't like what you're doing."
She reaches for her flask again, half-uncapping it before apparently remembering that it's empty and setting it down.
"And you're gonna keep me here, keep me talking, until I spill my guts?" she muses. "Probably smart of you."
She looks thoughtfully at you.
"No," she says. "I'm not giving up what I have."
[] How do you respond?
[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)
As I mentioned in an earlier post - this is the only update I'll be putting up this week. It's been a hectic week and a packed weekend, so... Should be back to the normal rate next week, though!
What does she expect? Sure, you absolutely despise what she's done. What does she expect? You can't really imagine that she's so bad with people as to not realise that declaring she Soul-lobotomies people and enslaves said Souls isn't something that engenders trust or goodwill in any way, shape, or form. And...
What did she expect? You can't help but come back to that. She flew here from Edinburgh, and she must have wanted something out of this. You have... trouble reading her, but she was rude and abrasive from the very first moment she laid eyes on you. But she can read your Soul, and perhaps she was disappointed from that very first moment.
She wanted... she doesn't want cleansing from you. She does want the ability to cleanse Soul Gems, or perhaps something adjacent to that. It's why she comes back to her taking your Soul, and maybe, just maybe, that's why she doesn't want it to come to a fight.
That feels right. It feels right.
But-
Why?
She doesn't want your help, even freely offered without strings. She wants your powers for herself, or to develop her own. Is it just a trust issue? Some weird lone wolf mentality? Or something she wants to do with that ability?
No, you know what? Your patience is just about reaching its end. You have a drop more to spare, and perhaps a bit more. You exhale, letting yourself wrap Grief around Mami's shoulders for another gentle hug that's not quite as good as the real thing but will suffice for now, and she-
She's alert, you can tell that much. She leans into the hug, warm golden eyes fluttering, but you can feel the set of her shoulders as she pretends to focus on the enchantment in her hands. And you can see how her gaze flickers subtly over the room, taking it all in with a sharp eye. And then there's a faint hum of her magic, her ribbons winding so slowly through the room you wouldn't notice that there were there if you didn't know exactly what to look for.
Alright.
"Yeah, I hate what you've done," you admit, and almost smile. It feels oddly good to get that out, even though you have to speak quickly to get your words in before Rionna says anything. "But I figure that you won't have to do it any more if you'd let me help you."
Or even if she doesn't, one way or another.
Rionna opens her mouth, and it's your turn to cut her off.
"What are you doing, anyway, that you're so sure I can't help?" you ask.
"It doesn't concern you," Rionna says dismissively.
"I thought you might say that, really," you say thoughtfully, meeting her eyes. "So... well, I know you're trying to work out renewable cleansing with all the Grief controller's shades. You said as much, and... hm. I think you're working on de-Witching in some capacity, or at the very least you've dabbled in it."
"It doesn't concern you," Rionna snaps.
"I mean, if those are your goals, then frankly, you're shooting yourself in the foot trying to work alone," you say, folding your arms. "I mean, you said it yourself - everyone's tried it. More specifically, I am trying it, both of them. They're both high on my priority list."
"And that'd be bleeding fantastic, once that were what I was doing," Rionna snorts, and looks away. "I've tried those things, so I have, and I want those things."
She cocks her head, staring at you. Almost staring through you. "Are ye not... no. You don't want to fight me, but you does be wanting me to stop."
"I... yeah," you say, shrugging. "I don't like what you're doing."
She reaches for her flask again, half-uncapping it before apparently remembering that it's empty and setting it down.
"And you're gonna keep me here, keep me talking, until I spill my guts?" she muses. "Probably smart of you."
She looks thoughtfully at you.
"No," she says. "I'm not giving up what I have."
[] How do you respond?
[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)
=====
As I mentioned in an earlier post - this is the only update I'll be putting up this week. It's been a hectic week and a packed weekend, so... Should be back to the normal rate next week, though!
Kinruush
Who?
- Location
- USA
Strictly speaking, we're not keeping her here.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Charon
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Kkutlord
Prince of Breath
- Location
- Indianapolis, Indiana
Sabrina should make it clear, from a logical standpoint, that she's perfectly aware Riona would never agree to releasing the Shades given her current reliance on them. So Sabrina could go on and on about them, yet getting Riona to simply stop claiming more is realistically the best that can be negotiated currently.
Maybe Sabrina can offer to assist Riona in refining her inherent abilities? She can provide constant cleansing so Riona can go all out with magic input. Basically, the stronger Riona is the less she'll need Shades. Really, "strengthen inherent abilities" and "resolve/gain what is truly desired" is the best peaceful way to sway Riona.
We know Magical Girls can make souls with effort, aka the Saints making the Kazumi Sisters, so... Why not help Riona figure out how to produce artificial souls made with the explicit purpose of being Shades? That way she still has mooks, and if the Saints could make pseudo-Magical Girls then Riona should be capable of similar.
Maybe Sabrina can offer to assist Riona in refining her inherent abilities? She can provide constant cleansing so Riona can go all out with magic input. Basically, the stronger Riona is the less she'll need Shades. Really, "strengthen inherent abilities" and "resolve/gain what is truly desired" is the best peaceful way to sway Riona.
We know Magical Girls can make souls with effort, aka the Saints making the Kazumi Sisters, so... Why not help Riona figure out how to produce artificial souls made with the explicit purpose of being Shades? That way she still has mooks, and if the Saints could make pseudo-Magical Girls then Riona should be capable of similar.
SolipsistSerpent
Endlessly Devouring
She's assuming the visible bubble thing she's in is solid and that she can't walk through it, I presume.
Although she hasn't tried 'asking to be let out' so it's not like we're exactly keeping her here even if it were.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
[x] Show her the Clear Seed. Explain what she's seeing: the sheer capacity, the quiescent nature of the witch, the way it absorbs hope magic.
-[x] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
[x] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
-[x] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
--[x] And if there's something else she wants, we can make that possible, too.
[x] Once she has that... what would she even need shades for? Territory? Meaningless when you don't have to hunt. Protection? Power? Freely given to those who would go forth and sin no more.
-[x] Does she really want the company of the dead more than she wants a chance to live free of the fear that haunts every magical girl?
-[x] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
[x] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
-[x] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
--[x] And if there's something else she wants, we can make that possible, too.
[x] Once she has that... what would she even need shades for? Territory? Meaningless when you don't have to hunt. Protection? Power? Freely given to those who would go forth and sin no more.
-[x] Does she really want the company of the dead more than she wants a chance to live free of the fear that haunts every magical girl?
[x] Okay. Then I guess thats it.
-[x]One thing, do you know anyone else I can contact with soul related abilities? Since you won't help me and I need input on it with my research team.
Let her go~
-[x]One thing, do you know anyone else I can contact with soul related abilities? Since you won't help me and I need input on it with my research team.
Let her go~
Charon
Let's pretend I have no idea what that means.
- Location
- Olympia, Washington
[X] Show her the Clear Seed. Explain what she's seeing: the sheer capacity, the quiescent nature of the witch, the way it absorbs hope magic.
-[X] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
[X] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
-[X] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
--[X] And if there's something else she wants, we can make that possible, too.
---[X]No guarantees, obviously, we're powerful not omnipotent, but we can't negotiate when any attempt at finding out what she actually wants is stonewalled with variations of "None of your business/not giving up my power/your soul", the latter of which she has to know isn't going to happen.
I tweaked The Narrator's vote, adding a caveat to our sky-high promises of making anything she wants possible, and removing the latter part about what she would need her shades for (since pushing on that point has had absolutely no effect, only resulting in stonewalling and hostility so far). Especially that 'Freely given to those who would go forth and sin no more' part, which comes across as really preachy to me.
Feel free to tweak/steal/adapt as needed, this is quite an early vote and I haven't actually voted in a long time. Next part was typed up first, so forgive the confrontational tone.
Honestly, why haven't we shown her the Clear Seed filled with Hope magic yet? So far, from her perspective, it's all been empty platitudes & reassurances, disgust & judgement over what she's done to survive, and endless attempts to talk her into giving up her only source of power and every ability she's gained without offering her anything she hasn't heard a million times before.
Show her the seed. Show her that we're not all talk and empty promises, that we've made visible progress, even if we're not quite sure what that progress means just yet. Stop dancing around the issue and focusing on the shades and 'but slavery' and in the words of Shia LaBeouf Just Do It!
-[X] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
[X] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
-[X] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
--[X] And if there's something else she wants, we can make that possible, too.
---[X]No guarantees, obviously, we're powerful not omnipotent, but we can't negotiate when any attempt at finding out what she actually wants is stonewalled with variations of "None of your business/not giving up my power/your soul", the latter of which she has to know isn't going to happen.
I tweaked The Narrator's vote, adding a caveat to our sky-high promises of making anything she wants possible, and removing the latter part about what she would need her shades for (since pushing on that point has had absolutely no effect, only resulting in stonewalling and hostility so far). Especially that 'Freely given to those who would go forth and sin no more' part, which comes across as really preachy to me.
Feel free to tweak/steal/adapt as needed, this is quite an early vote and I haven't actually voted in a long time. Next part was typed up first, so forgive the confrontational tone.
Honestly, why haven't we shown her the Clear Seed filled with Hope magic yet? So far, from her perspective, it's all been empty platitudes & reassurances, disgust & judgement over what she's done to survive, and endless attempts to talk her into giving up her only source of power and every ability she's gained without offering her anything she hasn't heard a million times before.
Show her the seed. Show her that we're not all talk and empty promises, that we've made visible progress, even if we're not quite sure what that progress means just yet. Stop dancing around the issue and focusing on the shades and 'but slavery' and in the words of Shia LaBeouf Just Do It!
This has been a very frustrating series of updates. It's like (I will date myself here) one of those point-and-click puzzle solving games where you have to find the exact right pixel to click on or the game just stops dead.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Fair enough. That was kind of an experimental idea anyway. I was thinking we might be able to appeal to her Catholic upbringing.
Adjustment:
[x] Show her the Clear Seed. Explain what she's seeing: the sheer capacity, the quiescent nature of the witch, the way it absorbs hope magic.
-[x] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
[x] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
-[x] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
--[x] And if there's something else she wants, we can probably make that possible, too.
Although I find myself tempted to respond to...
...with:
[ ] What do you have that's so important? An army of the dead for company? The constant specter of witchdom and the Incubators hanging over you?
Gadjo
Doka
Honestly she's refusing all offers of cooperation, refusing to even consider releasing her slaves, and generally refusing to do anything but... leave? Supposedly? Not with an army of ghost slaves she's not. I'm sure she has reasons for what she does, but so does everyone. That doesn't make your actions excusable, or right.
Frankly, I'm pretty sure any diplomacy that ends in her releasing her slaves simply isn't going to happen. I mean, keep poking if you want but it seems pretty inevitable that this is going to end with a smackdown.
Frankly, I'm pretty sure any diplomacy that ends in her releasing her slaves simply isn't going to happen. I mean, keep poking if you want but it seems pretty inevitable that this is going to end with a smackdown.
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redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Staff Notice
How many innocents does your average unchecked witch (+familiars) kill in, say, a month?
How much collateral damage and how many casualties when groups of magi fight over territory?
How much death and suffering would there be in an unclaimed city, as witches run rampant, new girls are contracted and thrown into the grind unprepared, and foreigners move in to farm seeds and take advantage?
... and how many 'probably not conscious' souls does Riona keep in her service? Like, 20? 50?
Ok. Save those poor spirits, doom hundreds or worst case thousands of innocents. Who even cares about that place over on the other side of the world anyways? It's not like it affects Sabrina's delicate sensibilities.
How much collateral damage and how many casualties when groups of magi fight over territory?
How much death and suffering would there be in an unclaimed city, as witches run rampant, new girls are contracted and thrown into the grind unprepared, and foreigners move in to farm seeds and take advantage?
... and how many 'probably not conscious' souls does Riona keep in her service? Like, 20? 50?
Ok. Save those poor spirits, doom hundreds or worst case thousands of innocents. Who even cares about that place over on the other side of the world anyways? It's not like it affects Sabrina's delicate sensibilities.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
Calling you all to analyze again, from the top, using the clues fresh out of the text...
I want to understand this fully first, before revising our negotiating stance.
BTW, no matter what our ultimate stance on her is, I think we walk peacefully out of her room in this scene. Both for meta reasons, and because I smell a combat deadfall.
One possibility... She wants to become mortal? Or she wants that for her sister? The more distant goals would be restoration from a shade, and recovery of a Grief Seed from Kyuubey. At the long end, she is trying to ascend to immortal power? She needs a sane witch barrier perhaps? Magic holodeck for some sort of upload environment?
Orrrr... monster potential maximized?
She wants to cast Permanence on her Shades? Or just her sister's Shade?
Ah ha! Use her opening in a disturbing way?
{{Very hard line}}
How many years has Rionna been at it now? She should give up then. What she has right now is failure, a long flight home, and a long lifetime to think about how she spit on her own chances. We think she is the only living girl with Soul magic. She knows for certain we are the first girl with real Grief powers. The only move here is to make a deal. Offer us something, or fully give up on her dream.
{{doubling on our own themes}}
What does Rionna object to in our list of:
Cleansing for all
No more suffering
De-Witching
Peace
Civility
Survival
Normal existance as a free choice
{{Contrary taunt}}
Who would want what you have?
{{Dark and Philosophical}}
Time takes it all, some sooner than later
I want to understand this fully first, before revising our negotiating stance.
BTW, no matter what our ultimate stance on her is, I think we walk peacefully out of her room in this scene. Both for meta reasons, and because I smell a combat deadfall.
"Rionna's secret" outranks her "desire to dominate" on the Sabrina meter. She responded to the most important one.
Decode this!
One possibility... She wants to become mortal? Or she wants that for her sister? The more distant goals would be restoration from a shade, and recovery of a Grief Seed from Kyuubey. At the long end, she is trying to ascend to immortal power? She needs a sane witch barrier perhaps? Magic holodeck for some sort of upload environment?
Orrrr... monster potential maximized?
She wants to cast Permanence on her Shades? Or just her sister's Shade?
Ah ha! Use her opening in a disturbing way?
{{Very hard line}}
How many years has Rionna been at it now? She should give up then. What she has right now is failure, a long flight home, and a long lifetime to think about how she spit on her own chances. We think she is the only living girl with Soul magic. She knows for certain we are the first girl with real Grief powers. The only move here is to make a deal. Offer us something, or fully give up on her dream.
{{doubling on our own themes}}
What does Rionna object to in our list of:
Cleansing for all
No more suffering
De-Witching
Peace
Civility
Survival
Normal existance as a free choice
{{Contrary taunt}}
Who would want what you have?
{{Dark and Philosophical}}
Time takes it all, some sooner than later
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
I'm arguing that letting her go is the lesser evil here, if you guys get tired of trying to diplomance her.
This infatuation with sudden and extreme violence against a non-hostile is unproductive.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not suggesting that her actions are excusable, justified or right. I am suggesting that attacking an established power has long term consequences that we aren't in a position to deal with.
We need to really look at the consequences of something like this before declaring that 'smacking her down' is inevitable
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
You mean "person who has done such horrifying things that the QM stepped in to deliver word from on high about how horrible she was".
We went out to stop the fighting in Sendai. We went out to run off Hijiri and get Anri under control. We are going to stop Rionna. And, just like anyone else that needs to be stopped, if they refuse to participate in polite discussion, we resort to force. Ever read Clausewitz? "The continuation of politics by other means."
I do, however, agree that it's not yet the time for violence. I don't think we're anywhere near exhausting our resources.
As for "sudden and extreme" - the means must accomplish the ends. Rionna is an amazingly hard target, which consumes a ton of our optimization budget, and keeping it nonlethal removes a ton of the remaining feasible region. So if we do, after careful deliberation, decide that she's going down, we'll need to reach deep into the corners of solution space to find something. And that means "sudden" and "extreme" violence. Probably something comparable to what Ramiel Girl or Miss I Own This Town deployed against us.
edit:
Firnagzen never felt the need to inform us about the moral or ethical character of girls whose on-screen kill count included multiple muggle fatalities. I am damned sure that Riona has done something that needs to stop and is worth putting in the effort to stop.
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If you want to argue it, then argue it without the passive-aggressiveness.
And again? Don't try to excuse her actions.
Generally speaking, that means you're approaching it wrongly.