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@Redshirt Army @Kaizuki

I feel like not bringing up dewitching is a huge mistake. It's one thing to say we'll go to Scotland to help her if she needs, it's another to indicate that we actually can help her by showing that we're pursuing the same goal. (If that's actually what it's about, but even if it isn't, telling her about dewitching shows why we want to work with her and what our motives are.)

Most meguca, even if they're witchbombed, when they see the Clear Seed, don't think of dewitching. Homura didn't. They just see unlimited cleansing.

We have to actually say it outloud.

Beating around the bush has not served us well in this conversation. Just come right out and say it already.
 
Got to agree with The Narrator on this one. I mean, it's possible that reversing Witching is why she was looking for Grief Controllers in the first place. That's our best bait, if so.
 
Don't read up much, but, eh...

[X-

No. Not voting this time around.

I will throw in my two cents, though, I agree with Narrator and co. We need her on the back foot, beating around the bush or being too accommodating won't work.

Full bluntness ahead.
 
Adjusted Kaizuki's vote to spell out dewitching research.

[X] NOT TO BE VOCALIZED, PROVIDED AS INFORMATION FOR BRINA: You won't get anything done here unless you can break her existing belief that you can't help her. So, be as direct as possible about this:
-[X] You can help her, especially if she helps you with dewitching research involving clear seeds. You don't know the nature of whatever problem there is surrounding whatever it is back home that she values so much, but you're capable of an awful lot beyond just moving grief around.
--[X] Virtually anything you're not currently capable of, you either have allies who are capable of or you expect to develop the capability for in the near-to-mid term.
[X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 5, 2018 at 5:23 PM, finished with 143029 posts and 44 votes.
  • [X] She's being obstructive since she thinks the trip was a waste, and that you can't help her. Convince her otherwise. Be as direct as possible.
    -[X] Begin by countering her earlier assertion that we "can't help her at all." We can help her: True Grief Manipulation is extremely flexible, and what you can't do, you've got people for, or can find people for. Unlimited cleansing is a hell of a bargaining tool.
    [X] Whether she heard you out or not, dig for further information on her situation and potential problems in Edinburgh. Be careful not to come across as threatening.
    [X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
    [X] Reaction: Disappointment. Tone: Very serious.
    -[X] Calm down.
    -[X] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.
    [X] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
    -[X] Show her Aurora.
    --[X] Ask if she sees anything unusual in the Seed.
    --[X] Briefly explain your dewitchification experiments.
    -[X] When you heard about her from Nadia, you were really happy, because an expert on souls could make a huge difference in making this dream a reality.
    -[X] ...but you can't work with her. Not while she continues to enslave souls. You'll try not to judge, but you're not going to condone it.
    [X] She came here with the intent of killing another false Grief controller. What does she intend to do now?
    -[X] She went out of her way to present herself as a villain who enjoys enslaving others. You don't intend to buy into that provocation, if that's what she was hoping for.
    -[X] She is free to stay in Mitakihara as long as she doesn't cause any trouble.
    -[X] Your offer remains open, if she changes her mind.
    [X] Be on guard for any aggressive moves, and be ready to signal Mami and Homura if it looks like Rionna is going to attack.
    [x] Keep Rionna talking.
    -[x] Flat out tell her that you want her help with dewitching, and that you're offering her the cleansing she wants. Why is she so willing to leave?
    [x] ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET RIONNA NOTICE THIS, KEEP YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THIS MUTED:
    -[x] Calmly message Mami with grief, requesting that she not react and contact Homura for timestop, please.
    --[x] You need to discuss what Rionna has said with Mami, Homura, and Sayaka to decide what to do. You won't commit to any action without that discussion first.
    ---[x] Keep calm, do not commit to hostile action against Rionna in your mind.
    [X] NOT TO BE VOCALIZED, PROVIDED AS INFORMATION FOR BRINA: You won't get anything done here unless you can break her existing belief that you can't help her. So, be as direct as possible about this:
    -[X] You can help her: you don't know the nature of whatever problem there is surrounding whatever it is back home that she values so much, but you're capable of an awful lot beyond just moving grief around.
    --[X] Virtually anything you're not currently capable of, you either have allies who are capable of or you expect to develop the capability for in the near-to-mid term.
    [X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
    [X] Sigh, relax your visible tension, maybe slump a little bit.
    -[X] "You're not very easy to work with."
    [X] Explain and demonstrate your power
    -[X] Pull grief from your soul gem, float it around, make a few shapes. Perhaps a flute that starts softly playing music?
    -[X] Pull a little bit of grief from a grief seed, just to prove its possible
    --[X] Explain that floating grief is easy to manage, especially given use of a 4th dimension of space. If the cloud ever gets to be a bit too much you can just shove it down Kyubey's backhole. We can demonstrate this afterwards if she'd like.
    [X] After power explanation, move on to explaining your goals.
    -[X] Emphasize your desire for magical girls around the world to be able to live normal lives
    --[X] Ultimately, you want to break Kyubey's wretched system of grief and suffering, and replace it with something better
    ---[X] Some enchanted artefact that can absorb grief, or the proliferation of clear seeds or something that'll ensure magical girls can live long and peaceful lives, witches can be slowly but surely removed as a threat, and maybe Kyubey can even still accumulate grief for his anti-entropy efforts.
    [X] Now Riona knows what you can do and what your goals are. What's her place going to be in things?
    -[X] She can choose to help Sabrina with her powers, with her experience and very different perspective
    -[X] She can choose to go home in peace and deal with her own shit for however long it takes for Sabrina to fix things and bring infinite cleansings all the way to Ireland
    -[X] She can, for whatever reason, oppose this. Preferably with logical argument rather than sudden hostilities. Maaaybe don't mention this? Let it go unsaid unless she comments.
    --[X] Whatever her immediate choices, know that enslaved and possibly suffering shades of the dead won't be tolerated forever. That kind of shit belongs in Kyubey's system, not ours.
    [x] You flew half way around the world to find a real Grief cleanser, and you're just going to leave? No. You came here looking for something. Well, so am I. Let's deal.
    [x] I'm trying to figure out how to turn a witch back into a person. The Clear Seed is the first step. They have thousands of times the capacity of regular Grief Seeds. One of these can keep a magical girl clean for centuries. And eventually we hope to enchant something that will do the job without needing souls at all. No more witchouts. No more used Seeds going into Kyubey's back for him to do god-knows-what to. No more need for girls to put themselves through this hell of hunting and fighting to survive. We can all just live like real people.
    [x] When we no longer need Seeds to survive, we can start helping them, too. We've already gotten some small results from injecting positive emotions into the Clear Seed. Your soul powers might be the key to making this back into a Soul Gem.
    [x] You came here looking for a charlatan, a dragon to slay, but I'm not your enemy. I want to help people. Ask Nadia Bennouna, she'll confirm that I'm for real.
    [x] You fought the false Grief Cleansers because they were witching girls out. We don't want anyone to witchout either. We can make a world where no one does, ever again.
    [x] Please. Help us.
    [X] NOT TO BE VOCALIZED, PROVIDED AS INFORMATION FOR BRINA: You won't get anything done here unless you can break her existing belief that you can't help her. So, be as direct as possible about this:
    -[X] You can help her, especially if she helps you with dewitching research involving clear seeds. You don't know the nature of whatever problem there is surrounding whatever it is back home that she values so much, but you're capable of an awful lot beyond just moving grief around.
    --[X] Virtually anything you're not currently capable of, you either have allies who are capable of or you expect to develop the capability for in the near-to-mid term.
    [X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
    [x] Why?
    [X] If at any point she displays surprise, cut to voting. If she tries to leave, cut to voting.
    [X] Be pensive. Body language should be asking a capital-Q Question.
    [X] What does she live for?
    -[X] It would be easy to make her out as the classic utterly powerful, knowledgeable, and selfish magical girl.
    -[X] Except that that requires she have something to be selfish about.
    -[X] And whatever that is, it's pretty clearly back home, with the majority of her shades guarding it. Not her city.
    [x] Everyone has a goal of some kind, something that keeps them going.
    -[x] You already know mine. Yours though I'm not so sure on. I think there's something specific you want to do with my power. Something beyond survival.
    -[x] We both want what the other one of us can provide. We don't trust each other enough to cooperate... *yet*. So we'll trade. You help me find out what happens with Dewitching research, and whatever your goal is... so long as it isn't super-villainy, I'll help you with it, and I'll prove to you with actions, not words, that you don't need to rely on those shades forever to accomplish it. You want my power that badly, I'll designate you my insurance policy if you release a few right now. If the research kills me, and you can claim my soul, it's yours.
    [X] Find her core goals.
    -[X] Ask bluntly.
    --[X] Everyone has something that drives them. We exist to break the magical girl system. Some people only cling to life by reflex.
    --[X] Why does she choose to live? (Phrasing, very specifically: not "why is she alive". The meaning must clearly refer to what she lives for, and not lean towards implying that we are asking why we shouldn't kill her.)
    -[X] She has a motive in targeting Grief movers. And it sounds like she can't relocate to work with you.
    -[X] is her drink enchanted with Memories?
    [x] You came here looking for a charlatan, a dragon to slay, but we're not your enemy. We help people. Ask Nadia Bennouna, she'll confirm.
    -[X] We don't want anyone to witchout either. We can make a world where no one does, ever again.
    [X] Her interests are relevant to us because we want to propose a trade. We might work together even if we don't trust each other.
    -[X] Rionna helps with Dewitching research and making the world a better place.
    --[X] You can promise that it is exactly what it sounds like
    [X] You'll help Riona achieve her goals, just like you want for every magical girl. We have reach and power
    -[X] First, we want to apprentice on her enforcement tasks. We will show her our morality as action. She can overwatch.
    -[X] Help grant her heart's desire? Even if it's just something that doesn't help others, but makes her happier.
    ---[X] What could we offer, in exchange for no further soul taking while we cooperate?
    [x] Please. Help us.
    [X] If you could prove to her that you could help her, would she stop? Or at least pause and not take any more souls. She said 'will not and cannot', not that she wanted to.
    -[X] Extend some trust. Show her the Clear Seed. Let her examine it, with the clear expectation that you'll get it back.
    -[X] Tell her it's your first step towards Dewitching.
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Oh, some additional info on the Irkalla thing which may support the sister hypothesis (I think some people probably know this but it hasn't been mentioned in the thread). In one of the more famous stories involving Irkalla, Inanna (or Ishtar), sister of Ereshkigal, attempts to descend into Irkalla and take it over. She gets struck dead, and her second-in-command pleas for her life. It succeeds, but Inanna's husband is dragged into the underworld instead.

Not sure why Rionna's Witch would be Irkalla instead of any of the goddesses, though.
 
I do think that if we can organically bring up dewitching, that we should. And the obvious place to do that is when discussing an exchange of favors - if she wants dewitching, then we'd be asking her help with something she already plans on doing.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I do think that if we can organically bring up dewitching, that we should. And the obvious place to do that is when discussing an exchange of favors - if she wants dewitching, then we'd be asking her help with something she already plans on doing.
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Which seems like a deal she'd be likely to agree to, so I don't see the downside. We'd lose some leverage? Right now we have none. If we're working on something with her cooperatively, then we have some way to influence her going forward. If her motivations are what we think they are, she won't want to risk alienating us and losing her one chance to save her sister.

Bait doesn't work if you never take it out of the tackle box for the fish to see.
 
The Narrator said:
@Redshirt Army @Kaizuki

I feel like not bringing up dewitching is a huge mistake. It's one thing to say we'll go to Scotland to help her if she needs, it's another to indicate that we actually can help her by showing that we're pursuing the same goal. (If that's actually what it's about, but even if it isn't, telling her about dewitching shows why we want to work with her and what our motives are.)

Most meguca, even if they're witchbombed, when they see the Clear Seed, don't think of dewitching. Homura didn't. They just see unlimited cleansing.

We have to actually say it outloud.

Beating around the bush has not served us well in this conversation. Just come right out and say it already.
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Where did you get the idea Rionna would care about dewitching in the slightest? Given her powerset and her relative disinterest in the clear seed as compared to maintaining her army of shades, it's *incredibly* unlikely that her sister is a witch or a grief seed. This is a baseless, dangerous assumption, and I guess I didn't say this earlier, but...

I'm frankly upset about the lack of developed posting going on in here. We've seen an awful lot of frankly stupid arguments evolve because some guy -- like me, back with Homura a few months ago -- didn't fully flesh out their argument. It's incredibly difficult for somebody else to work off of a post that asserts something and backs it up by saying "and the text said this," because being that there is no quote, nobody has any idea where the heck you're saying that the text said that.

And quite often, it turns out that the text did not say that. Or, as in this case, it will turn out that somebody started a post by assuming something without providing any evidence for it, and nobody else ever provided any evidence for it either.

I've committed myself, since that incident during our speaking with Homura, to more fully fleshing out my arguments if I actually choose to make them. You don't need to achieve the same level of detail & effort I've been putting into this, but if you're going to make a serious argument, please put in an effort to use quotes to back up assertions -- I promise you that it will result in a better community and a more effective Sabrina.




We will not be bringing up dewitching as part of this vote. There is no evidence that Rionna would be interested in it, and we will not be verbally shooting ourselves in the foot again like we've already done so many times in this conversation. For an example, observe:


Firnagzen said:
"I've got a few questions for you," you say, and hold her gaze again. "If you don't mind."

"Tch," Rionna says. She breaks the eye contact, taking a pull from her flask. "Ask."

"One. What do you think of Kyuubey?" you ask, leaning back on the chair and watching her.

"Desperate, dodgy dosser," Rionna says, letting the flask drop to the bed. "Have you already forgotten?" She taps her Soul Gem with the index finger of her other hand.

"... desperate?" you ask, blinking. That's not an adjective you'd have associated with the little white rat.

"Means 'bad' for the rest of you," Rionna says, sniffing. "Very bad. Next question."

"Ah," you say, tucking that persistently flyaway lock of hair of yours behind your ear. Honestly, you don't know whether you should trust Rionna with your secrets, speculative or otherwise. "What... no, well. Why did you come here? What do you want from me?"

And honestly, what would you tell her? As you'd told her: you have ideas. Do you want to share the notion that you might have been a Witch, de-Witched into human form? That you might have been Walpurgisnacht, the city-ending Witch, or Gretchen, the universe ending Witch? Or that you might have been straight-up created by a Wish? That you might have been sent back in time to undo the future?

"I want what everyone wants," Rionna says, and fixes an unblinking gaze on you. "I see people's Souls. I know what happens. I want what you have."

"Sure," you say. You can believe that. "You left your city behind and flew halfway across the world on a... rumour of my existence?"

"Not the first time," Rionna says. "Besides, my city is safe."

"Actually," you say. "A... side question, if you don't mind."

Rionna sighs, taking another long pull from her flask. "Yerra, y' can't help me at all, can you? Y' can't exactly give me your magic, I doubt you're willing to give me your Soul, and I wager I'd have a fight on m' hands if I tried to take it."

... yeah, because that's reassuring.

"Leaving that entirely unsettling statement aside for now until I process it," you say. "How did you hear about me?"

Rionna shrugs, squinting at the inside of her flask. "Been in Tokyo before, know a couple o' girls there."

"Huh," you say. You lean forward a little and prop your chin on a fist, your elbow resting on your knee. "After another Grief-cleanser?"

"Fake," Rionna says with a shrug. "Made an example out of her."

"Were you going to make an example out of me, if I were a fake?" you ask, narrowing your eyes.

"Pr'bably," Rionna says, shrugging again. She gives her flask a faintly mournful look before taking another swig from it. "Y'know what I mean by fake?"

"That they can only transfer Grief, not actually cleanse it," you say.

"So you know what that does," Rionna says. "'s deserved."
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Notice how our response to "Yerra, y' can't help me at all, can you?" was "Leaving that statement aside..."?

Until we have evidence that she would care about it, or until we have something to offer her that she wants and we've cleared our other priorities out (releasing the shades, not murdering more people...), there is no reason for us to bring up dewitching.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
[X] She's being obstructive since she thinks the trip was a waste, and that you can't help her. Convince her otherwise. Be as direct as possible.
-[X] Begin by countering her earlier assertion that we "can't help her at all." We can help her: True Grief Manipulation is extremely flexible, and what you can't do, you've got people for, or can find people for. Unlimited cleansing is a hell of a bargaining tool.

[X] Whether she heard you out or not, dig for further information on her situation and potential problems in Edinburgh. Be careful not to come across as threatening.

[X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
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Kaizuki said:
[X] NOT TO BE VOCALIZED, PROVIDED AS INFORMATION FOR BRINA: You won't get anything done here unless you can break her existing belief that you can't help her. So, be as direct as possible about this:
-[X] You can help her: you don't know the nature of whatever problem there is surrounding whatever it is back home that she values so much, but you're capable of an awful lot beyond just moving grief around.
--[X] Virtually anything you're not currently capable of, you either have allies who are capable of or you expect to develop the capability for in the near-to-mid term.
[X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
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@Redshirt Army I do need to note that a big difference here is that your vote doesn't actually address the existence of something of value up in Edinburgh, unless it's brought up by autopilot in the conversation. I do understand a certain hesitance to admit openly that we've already worked out that there's something valuable up there, but I honestly believe it to be necessary if we want to get anywhere.

It's one thing to say that we should be able to help. It's another to say we should be able to help and then demonstrate some understanding of the problem we'd be helping with.
 
we know she wants our power - that much she's said. We need to either ask why, or guess why (and our best guess right now is what the people arguing for bringing up dewitching are getting at), and maybe also find out why she assumed we're not able and/or willing to help her short of "giving her" our power.

What is the argument against bringing up dewitching, and what should we do instead, towards this end?
 
Even if it turns out that Riona isn't interested in dewitching, we are. And we want her to help us with it, so I don't see any value in keeping it a secret.

It also establishes pretty clearly that we're not the typical Grief Controller. The Clear Seed could just be a commodity; it doesn't imply anything about our character.
 
The Narrator said:
so I don't see any value in keeping it a secret.
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Okay?

Kaizuki said:
We will not be bringing up dewitching as part of this vote. There is no evidence that Rionna would be interested in it, and we will not be verbally shooting ourselves in the foot again like we've already done so many times in this conversation. For an example, observe:


Firnagzen said:
"I've got a few questions for you," you say, and hold her gaze again. "If you don't mind."

"Tch," Rionna says. She breaks the eye contact, taking a pull from her flask. "Ask."

"One. What do you think of Kyuubey?" you ask, leaning back on the chair and watching her.

"Desperate, dodgy dosser," Rionna says, letting the flask drop to the bed. "Have you already forgotten?" She taps her Soul Gem with the index finger of her other hand.

"... desperate?" you ask, blinking. That's not an adjective you'd have associated with the little white rat.

"Means 'bad' for the rest of you," Rionna says, sniffing. "Very bad. Next question."

"Ah," you say, tucking that persistently flyaway lock of hair of yours behind your ear. Honestly, you don't know whether you should trust Rionna with your secrets, speculative or otherwise. "What... no, well. Why did you come here? What do you want from me?"

And honestly, what would you tell her? As you'd told her: you have ideas. Do you want to share the notion that you might have been a Witch, de-Witched into human form? That you might have been Walpurgisnacht, the city-ending Witch, or Gretchen, the universe ending Witch? Or that you might have been straight-up created by a Wish? That you might have been sent back in time to undo the future?

"I want what everyone wants," Rionna says, and fixes an unblinking gaze on you. "I see people's Souls. I know what happens. I want what you have."

"Sure," you say. You can believe that. "You left your city behind and flew halfway across the world on a... rumour of my existence?"

"Not the first time," Rionna says. "Besides, my city is safe."

"Actually," you say. "A... side question, if you don't mind."

Rionna sighs, taking another long pull from her flask. "Yerra, y' can't help me at all, can you? Y' can't exactly give me your magic, I doubt you're willing to give me your Soul, and I wager I'd have a fight on m' hands if I tried to take it."

... yeah, because that's reassuring.

"Leaving that entirely unsettling statement aside for now until I process it," you say. "How did you hear about me?"

Rionna shrugs, squinting at the inside of her flask. "Been in Tokyo before, know a couple o' girls there."

"Huh," you say. You lean forward a little and prop your chin on a fist, your elbow resting on your knee. "After another Grief-cleanser?"

"Fake," Rionna says with a shrug. "Made an example out of her."

"Were you going to make an example out of me, if I were a fake?" you ask, narrowing your eyes.

"Pr'bably," Rionna says, shrugging again. She gives her flask a faintly mournful look before taking another swig from it. "Y'know what I mean by fake?"

"That they can only transfer Grief, not actually cleanse it," you say.

"So you know what that does," Rionna says. "'s deserved."
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Notice how our response to "Yerra, y' can't help me at all, can you?" was "Leaving that statement aside..."?

Until we have evidence that she would care about it, or until we have something to offer her that she wants and we've cleared our other priorities out (releasing the shades, not murdering more people...), there is no reason for us to bring up dewitching.
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Would you mind addressing my argument for why there is value in not including dewitching in this vote instead of ignoring it and asserting that "keeping dewitching secret has no value", which additionally refers to something I'm not arguing for in the first place -- specifically, keeping dewitching secret from Rionna?
 
Kaizuki said:
Would you mind addressing my argument for why there is value in not including dewitching in this vote instead of ignoring it and asserting that "keeping dewitching secret has no value", which additionally refers to something I'm not arguing for in the first place -- specifically, keeping dewitching secret from Rionna?
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What precisely is your argument? Quoting an entire update communicates nothing to us. You say that bringing it up would be "shooting ourselves in the foot" but you don't give any reason why learning about dewitching would make her think any less of us.

(The "leaving that statement aside" remark was in response to the business about giving and taking souls, not in response to, "You can't help me.")

You say that we shouldn't bring it up until we have something that she wants, but there's no way for us to know if she wants it or not unless we bring it up. She's never going to suggest it herself, because as far as anyone knows, it's an impossible pipe dream. You say that we should clear our other priorities first (releasing the shades, etc.) but how do you intend to convince her to do that without any idea what to offer her?

Maybe Redshirt's theory about her sister being a witch is wrong. If so, what have we lost? We're still offering to help her with whatever it is that she came here hoping to find, and we've established our bonafides as an idealist who isn't like the other Griefbenders she's met.

There are four possibilities:
  1. We mention dewitching, and she's interested: We've basically given her the best reason possible to work with us.
  2. We mention dewitching, and she'd not interested: We've established that we're an idealist who wants more than just to survive and gather power. Maybe this raises her estimation of us, maybe she thinks we're hopelessly naive, but it doesn't really set us back any. We were going to have to tell her anyway if we wanted her to help us with it, and we still have the offer to help her with whatever she wants (possibly in Edinburgh).
  3. We don't mention dewitching, and she was interested: We've missed our best chance to get her interested in helping us. Maybe the offer to help her in Edinburgh gets a reaction, maybe it doesn't.
  4. We don't mention dewitching, and she wasn't interested: Status quo, which is deadlock. Maybe the offer to help her in Edinburgh gets a reaction, maybe it doesn't.
 
Alright, someone has to break this round of circular logic down, before Sabrina earned herself an aneurysm.

Kaizuki, what do you think about showing the Hoped up Clear Seed without asking to help with Dewitching, simply as an example of a project we're working on right now that we feel fairly certain we can succeed at?
Even if she's not interested in Dewitching, wouldn't this example serve to outline our capabilities? I will accept if you provide an argument on why we shouldn't do it in such a way, 'cause I have my own reservations, but I think we could somewhat benefit from this demonstration, no?
 
I like the idea of, not so much mentioning bewitching, but actually showing her Aurora and maybe even the happy grief experiment, for the following reasons:

  • It's a concrete accomplishment of ours rather than some abstract plan for the future. Whatever Rionna's problem is, it has to be something exotic and really difficult, or she'd have solved it already on her own. We need to show her that we have both the will and the means to tackle those kinds of problems.
  • Action, rather than idle talk. She has little patience for our speeches, and the Clear Seed is one of the few things she expressed interest in. Let's catch her attention.
  • We can gauge how useful her abilities would actually be to us. Or alternatively, if we've actually done something interesting, or just gone down a well-beaten dead end path of dewitching experiments.
  • We give her a reason why we want to work with her. Right now, she probably thinks we're morally outraged at her actions and trying to convince her to stop. A more practical motivation on Sabrina's end should make the conversation less adversarial.
 
Raiseth said:
Alright, someone has to break this round of circular logic down, before Sabrina earned herself an aneurysm.

Kaizuki, what do you think about showing the Hoped up Clear Seed without asking to help with Dewitching, simply as an example of a project we're working on right now that we feel fairly certain we can succeed at?
Even if she's not interested in Dewitching, wouldn't this example serve to outline our capabilities? I will accept if you provide an argument on why we shouldn't do it in such a way, 'cause I have my own reservations, but I think we could somewhat benefit from this demonstration, no?
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Literally next vote.

I am solely arguing against it being in this vote. Especially anything to do with the clear seed.

Why?

Well, for the clear seed, go re-read the last three posts and imagine what "here take a look at this *tosses clear seed*" would be like right now. I don't care which clear seed, it's the same deal. We just pulled one away from her saying we couldn't trust her. Could we change our mind? Yeah, but why not do it next vote instead when we'll have established that we've gotten new information about her, so we won't come off as, as... pick an option, stupid, manipulable, whatever.

...

Oh, I think I get it now. *sigh*

Okay. My chief mistake was that I ended up making out "convince her that we can help her" to be the important part of this. It's literally not.

The important thing here is to get her to put down, on the table, whatever the hell her problem up in Edinburgh is. Because that will tell us what leverage we have on her. And it will give us an idea of whether we can help her, and an idea of how we might help her. It allows us to make progress with the issue.

People have gotten caught up in this notion of "what can we do to show her that we're super competent?" And that's just not helpful, because we can demonstrate that however we want or however she asks, but she'll only ask and/or we'll only know how we want to demonstrate it once whatever her problem is is on the table.

There are only two reasons "convince her we can help her" is important in the slightest. One, convince her we can help her: it's about setting us up to ask about Edinburgh in a minimally threatening manner. Two, it's setup for possibly convincing her that yes we are capable of helping her in the next vote/s.

Apart from those two things, it is a distraction to be avoided in the name of directness.

When I wrote this:

-[X] You can help her: you don't know the nature of whatever problem there is surrounding whatever it is back home that she values so much, but you're capable of an awful lot beyond just moving grief around.
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I purposely made it as vague and simple regarding our "capabilities" as I could. Why? Because the way it's written, it gets that claim out of the way in a sentence's worth of words. It keeps it from being a distraction from the stuff that's actually important.

Bottom line is, it's only even there as conversational "fluff." Tangents about how we're so competent are, at this time, unhelpful distractions from our current goal.

This is why I ended up moving from a vote that went

[] We're super competent
-[] We can help with your problem back home

to the current vote,

[X] NOT TO BE VOCALIZED, PROVIDED AS INFORMATION FOR BRINA: You won't get anything done here unless you can break her existing belief that you can't help her. So, be as direct as possible about this:
-[X] You can help her: you don't know the nature of whatever problem there is surrounding whatever it is back home that she values so much, but you're capable of an awful lot beyond just moving grief around.
--[X] Virtually anything you're not currently capable of, you either have allies who are capable of or you expect to develop the capability for in the near-to-mid term.
[X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.

which goes

[] We can help you with your problem back home.
-[] We're competent, don't think we can't help with it.

Anything more specific belongs in a vote programmed like this:

[] We can help you with your problem back home.
-[] We're competent, don't think we can't help with it.
--[] Here's how we're so competent.

And the problem is, when we get to examples, we might as well first see what more information we can get out of her, instead of risking shooting ourselves in the foot feat. her saying something of substance and then us saying some unrelated crap.

Does that make any more sense?

Because, the problem is, trying to demonstrate how competent we are in any way that delays the delivery of "your problem back in Edinburgh" delays conveying to Rionna the point of that demonstration.

And that leaves us feeling really stupid.
 
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Uh, sorry, Kaizuki.
I've just realized why I chose to support the side of argument I did.
It was about getting a rise out of her. Again.

By what I've figured out of my logic, using a Clear Seed as a prop in our demonstration, we would be able to further antagonize her from position of strength and capability, or something.

Frankly, I don't think I'm sane enough to participate. Gotta sleep a little before continuing to contribute.
Sorry for the hassle, and, uh, night?

( Or I could check out Even Further Beyond. The idea is... interesting as fuck. )
 
Raiseth said:
Sorry for the hassle, and, uh, night?
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No, on the contrary, your post was extremely helpful:

Kaizuki said:
Does that make any more sense?

Because, the problem is, trying to demonstrate how competent we are in any way that delays the delivery of "your problem back in Edinburgh" delays conveying to Rionna the point of that demonstration.

And that leaves us feeling really stupid.
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This is totally the actual reason I'm not in total agreement with the current @Redshirt Army vote. I just hadn't managed to vocalize it before.

You were reasonable, polite, and purposeful in your post, and it really helped me better explain myself in the end. Thank you.
 
Kaizuki said:
[X] NOT TO BE VOCALIZED, PROVIDED AS INFORMATION FOR BRINA: You won't get anything done here unless you can break her existing belief that you can't help her. So, be as direct as possible about this:
-[X] You can help her: you don't know the nature of whatever problem there is surrounding whatever it is back home that she values so much, but you're capable of an awful lot beyond just moving grief around.
--[X] Virtually anything you're not currently capable of, you either have allies who are capable of or you expect to develop the capability for in the near-to-mid term.
[X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
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[x] Goal: Figure out why she thinks you can't help her. You won't get anything done until you can convince her otherwise.
[x] Strategy: Pry. Be blunt and direct. Leave her no technicalities to use to dodge questions; force her to provide details by making sweeping assumptions that she has to refute.
[x] Assert: You can help her. You don't yet have the details about whatever it is she's dealing with back home, but even discounting your friends, allies, and resources, moving grief around is the least of your abilities.
[x] Ask her what she wants. Not what she thinks she needs to do to get what she wants, or what she's done in the past, but the state of the universe that she desires.
[x] Try to cut to voting fairly quickly; don't let the conversation run off on a tangent.
 
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Sorry @The Narrator but I'm switching to:

[x]Kaizuki
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 5, 2018 at 7:54 PM, finished with 143051 posts and 46 votes.
  • [X] She's being obstructive since she thinks the trip was a waste, and that you can't help her. Convince her otherwise. Be as direct as possible.
    -[X] Begin by countering her earlier assertion that we "can't help her at all." We can help her: True Grief Manipulation is extremely flexible, and what you can't do, you've got people for, or can find people for. Unlimited cleansing is a hell of a bargaining tool.
    [X] Whether she heard you out or not, dig for further information on her situation and potential problems in Edinburgh. Be careful not to come across as threatening.
    [X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
    [X] Reaction: Disappointment. Tone: Very serious.
    -[X] Calm down.
    -[X] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.
    [X] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
    -[X] Show her Aurora.
    --[X] Ask if she sees anything unusual in the Seed.
    --[X] Briefly explain your dewitchification experiments.
    -[X] When you heard about her from Nadia, you were really happy, because an expert on souls could make a huge difference in making this dream a reality.
    -[X] ...but you can't work with her. Not while she continues to enslave souls. You'll try not to judge, but you're not going to condone it.
    [X] She came here with the intent of killing another false Grief controller. What does she intend to do now?
    -[X] She went out of her way to present herself as a villain who enjoys enslaving others. You don't intend to buy into that provocation, if that's what she was hoping for.
    -[X] She is free to stay in Mitakihara as long as she doesn't cause any trouble.
    -[X] Your offer remains open, if she changes her mind.
    [X] Be on guard for any aggressive moves, and be ready to signal Mami and Homura if it looks like Rionna is going to attack.
    [X] NOT TO BE VOCALIZED, PROVIDED AS INFORMATION FOR BRINA: You won't get anything done here unless you can break her existing belief that you can't help her. So, be as direct as possible about this:
    -[X] You can help her: you don't know the nature of whatever problem there is surrounding whatever it is back home that she values so much, but you're capable of an awful lot beyond just moving grief around.
    --[X] Virtually anything you're not currently capable of, you either have allies who are capable of or you expect to develop the capability for in the near-to-mid term.
    [X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
    [x] Keep Rionna talking.
    -[x] Flat out tell her that you want her help with dewitching, and that you're offering her the cleansing she wants. Why is she so willing to leave?
    [x] ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET RIONNA NOTICE THIS, KEEP YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THIS MUTED:
    -[x] Calmly message Mami with grief, requesting that she not react and contact Homura for timestop, please.
    --[x] You need to discuss what Rionna has said with Mami, Homura, and Sayaka to decide what to do. You won't commit to any action without that discussion first.
    ---[x] Keep calm, do not commit to hostile action against Rionna in your mind.
    [X] Sigh, relax your visible tension, maybe slump a little bit.
    -[X] "You're not very easy to work with."
    [X] Explain and demonstrate your power
    -[X] Pull grief from your soul gem, float it around, make a few shapes. Perhaps a flute that starts softly playing music?
    -[X] Pull a little bit of grief from a grief seed, just to prove its possible
    --[X] Explain that floating grief is easy to manage, especially given use of a 4th dimension of space. If the cloud ever gets to be a bit too much you can just shove it down Kyubey's backhole. We can demonstrate this afterwards if she'd like.
    [X] After power explanation, move on to explaining your goals.
    -[X] Emphasize your desire for magical girls around the world to be able to live normal lives
    --[X] Ultimately, you want to break Kyubey's wretched system of grief and suffering, and replace it with something better
    ---[X] Some enchanted artefact that can absorb grief, or the proliferation of clear seeds or something that'll ensure magical girls can live long and peaceful lives, witches can be slowly but surely removed as a threat, and maybe Kyubey can even still accumulate grief for his anti-entropy efforts.
    [X] Now Riona knows what you can do and what your goals are. What's her place going to be in things?
    -[X] She can choose to help Sabrina with her powers, with her experience and very different perspective
    -[X] She can choose to go home in peace and deal with her own shit for however long it takes for Sabrina to fix things and bring infinite cleansings all the way to Ireland
    -[X] She can, for whatever reason, oppose this. Preferably with logical argument rather than sudden hostilities. Maaaybe don't mention this? Let it go unsaid unless she comments.
    --[X] Whatever her immediate choices, know that enslaved and possibly suffering shades of the dead won't be tolerated forever. That kind of shit belongs in Kyubey's system, not ours.
    [x] Why?
    [X] If at any point she displays surprise, cut to voting. If she tries to leave, cut to voting.
    [X] Be pensive. Body language should be asking a capital-Q Question.
    [X] What does she live for?
    -[X] It would be easy to make her out as the classic utterly powerful, knowledgeable, and selfish magical girl.
    -[X] Except that that requires she have something to be selfish about.
    -[X] And whatever that is, it's pretty clearly back home, with the majority of her shades guarding it. Not her city.
    [x] Everyone has a goal of some kind, something that keeps them going.
    -[x] You already know mine. Yours though I'm not so sure on. I think there's something specific you want to do with my power. Something beyond survival.
    -[x] We both want what the other one of us can provide. We don't trust each other enough to cooperate... *yet*. So we'll trade. You help me find out what happens with Dewitching research, and whatever your goal is... so long as it isn't super-villainy, I'll help you with it, and I'll prove to you with actions, not words, that you don't need to rely on those shades forever to accomplish it. You want my power that badly, I'll designate you my insurance policy if you release a few right now. If the research kills me, and you can claim my soul, it's yours.
    [X] Find her core goals.
    -[X] Ask bluntly.
    --[X] Everyone has something that drives them. We exist to break the magical girl system. Some people only cling to life by reflex.
    --[X] Why does she choose to live? (Phrasing, very specifically: not "why is she alive". The meaning must clearly refer to what she lives for, and not lean towards implying that we are asking why we shouldn't kill her.)
    -[X] She has a motive in targeting Grief movers. And it sounds like she can't relocate to work with you.
    -[X] is her drink enchanted with Memories?
    [x] You came here looking for a charlatan, a dragon to slay, but we're not your enemy. We help people. Ask Nadia Bennouna, she'll confirm.
    -[X] We don't want anyone to witchout either. We can make a world where no one does, ever again.
    [X] Her interests are relevant to us because we want to propose a trade. We might work together even if we don't trust each other.
    -[X] Rionna helps with Dewitching research and making the world a better place.
    --[X] You can promise that it is exactly what it sounds like
    [X] You'll help Riona achieve her goals, just like you want for every magical girl. We have reach and power
    -[X] First, we want to apprentice on her enforcement tasks. We will show her our morality as action. She can overwatch.
    -[X] Help grant her heart's desire? Even if it's just something that doesn't help others, but makes her happier.
    ---[X] What could we offer, in exchange for no further soul taking while we cooperate?
    [x] Please. Help us.
    [X] If you could prove to her that you could help her, would she stop? Or at least pause and not take any more souls. She said 'will not and cannot', not that she wanted to.
    -[X] Extend some trust. Show her the Clear Seed. Let her examine it, with the clear expectation that you'll get it back.
    -[X] Tell her it's your first step towards Dewitching.
    [x] Goal: Figure out why she thinks you can't help her. You won't get anything done until you can convince her otherwise.
    [x] Strategy: Pry. Be blunt and direct. Leave her no technicalities to use to dodge questions; force her to provide details by making sweeping assumptions that she has to refute.
    [x] Assert: You can help her. You don't have the details about whatever it is she's dealing with back home, but even discounting your friends, allies, and resources, moving grief around is the least of your abilities.
    [x] Ask her what she wants. Not what she thinks she needs to do to get what she wants, or what she's done in the past, but the state of the universe that she desires.
    [x] Try to cut to voting fairly quickly; don't let the conversation run off on a tangent.
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