Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Hahahahano
If that were the case, she would have gone insane during our conversation with her.
Like, literally, clinically insane.
Imagine trying to make sense of several dozens of different viewpoints at the same time, accelerate it by the factor of 100, because only a few seconds passed during our discussion in PMAS, and multiply it by
Even Sabrina doesn't read our forum, per se. She just uses it to simulate her patterns of thoughts.
Then again, for Riona to be able to see these thoughts is entirely possible, though I do start to wonder how many powers we can hypothetically attribute to Soulguca without me breaking suspension of disbelief over my knee.
[X] Redshirt Army
Also my own thoughts;
I had thought of this as well, but here's a second, more positive thought; what if she's keeping magical girls away not only for her witchster's protection, but also to protect them from her? I'm not saying the anti-social and scary persona is just a front, but that she is deliberately provocative to keep other magical girls from even approaching her city out of concern for both her sister and other magical girls. That would suggest she has a strong moral compass, albeit one that is skewed differently than ours.
@Redshirt Army I'm not saying to change the vote, but I wonder if what she wants the grief spreaders for is some belief that if she drains enough grief away from her witched-out sister, it will be enough to "restore" her somehow. As a follow-up (for the next vote), maybe we should consider showing her that we have fed hope to the clear seeds, and that it has definitely had an impact, to show her that we are working on de-witching.
Also my own thoughts;
@linkhyrule5 's comment here sounds a lot like a train of thought Sabrina might have. Like, it literally would be a good train of thought for Sabrina.
I had thought of this as well, but here's a second, more positive thought; what if she's keeping magical girls away not only for her witchster's protection, but also to protect them from her? I'm not saying the anti-social and scary persona is just a front, but that she is deliberately provocative to keep other magical girls from even approaching her city out of concern for both her sister and other magical girls. That would suggest she has a strong moral compass, albeit one that is skewed differently than ours.
@Redshirt Army I'm not saying to change the vote, but I wonder if what she wants the grief spreaders for is some belief that if she drains enough grief away from her witched-out sister, it will be enough to "restore" her somehow. As a follow-up (for the next vote), maybe we should consider showing her that we have fed hope to the clear seeds, and that it has definitely had an impact, to show her that we are working on de-witching.
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- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
It might be that she is drinking pain, to bolster her stereotyped behavior and resolve. Memories of long ago, and Guilt are in that flask. It has spoiled with age. Imagining it is interesting that way?
Attempting to get ahead of the missing evidence, and understand the character better using supposition.
We have a few excellent data points, so I feel it is not futile. We will get more.
I know this goes beyond the facts, the point is attempting the full model sooner, rather than later. Invalidation is part of science. So is forming a hypothesis, so here it goes.
Rionna probably lives an inflexible life she doesn't want. She is trapped.
Rionna is a regret driven avenger. Vengeance nor restoration will not be possible in her view. Friends and cooperation are just fiction to her. She burned out a long time ago, yet she keeps a reminder of every wrong thing she has done. Her Shades serve as trophies of her crimes. Pain is her daily companion. No one else can judge her - Because she has already been judged, by someone who mattered to her.
Her magic beverage is awful and sour, because her enchantment if flavored by Guilt.
Her assault plan is full of holes by general inspection. She IS taking HUGE risks right now, to test if she could lay down her burden properly before dying. Even though she has survived this before, she knows what risks she takes fighting solo, but the risks don't matter anymore. I think defeat in combat could be acceptable in her view, if the opponent was morally superior and vastly capable, and would solve her one big issue(insert issue here.) Not that I want us to do that.
Rionna is being manipulated to remove us, since she is an extremist with one (public) interest (grief movers) and poor social skills. There may be a person in Tokyo who would rather not investigate what we are and what we mean. Rionna simplifies the world for that faction, if she freely kills us. They gave her a slanted report. Rionna has no care of this ATM.
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Actionable ideas?
Wait, we can offer a freebie to get the ball rolling.... Ask if Rionna can read the writing of witches. Tell her we can simply teach her in this room tonight. This would be simple, and not prone to blowback on us. It also makes us look really authoritative. "What, you don't stop and read the signs inside the barriers? I can." It is an ideal test to see if she has a fallen loved one?
Hunt a witch together, as a way to demonstrate our morality and power. Our theory of De-witching can be shown, rather than discussed. Our power allows a level of safety in a barrier that just doesn't happen too often.
Instead of leading with "give my morality a place over yours," we could make a legendary challenge out of this, and save someone to boot.
Let us propose to "do her job," as an apprentice. We were going to have to do something like this soon anyway to the Iowa girls.
Next time she gets a mission, she call us out too. We resolve it and protect the peace with our power, not hers. Be her flaming sword of justice.
Let her play at being Batman out on the periphery, in case we don't win. It doesn't bring us to her keep, and it is definitely contributing to her cause. We will be achieving our cause as well. Every time we go out with her, we may have to imprison some girl. Rionna only targets the murderers. But the criminal won't become a shade, even if she fights to the death.
"Chekov's" sparring DVD - is that why it exists? Is it a resume?
- Location
- .wa.us
[x] Redshirt Army
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
Rionna came to us with a tag on her. "Do Not Judge!!" it says. That doesn't mean we abandon our morals. We should be careful, and take it to mean "treat her as an equal," unless that isn't safe / possible anymore. What is her morality really? She explains herself poorly. I like the votes that ask more.
[X] Find her core goals.
-[X] Ask bluntly.
--[X] Everyone has something that drives them. We exist to break the magical girl system. Some people only cling to life by reflex.
--[X] Why does she choose to live? (Phrasing, very specifically: not "why is she alive". The meaning must clearly refer to what she lives for, and not lean towards implying that we are asking why we shouldn't kill her.)
-[X] She has a motive in targeting Grief movers. And it sounds like she can't relocate to work with you.
-[X] is her drink enchanted with Memories?
[x] You came here looking for a charlatan, a dragon to slay, but we're not your enemy. We help people. Ask Nadia Bennouna, she'll confirm.
-[X] We don't want anyone to witchout either. We can make a world where no one does, ever again.
[X] Her interests are relevant to us because we want to propose a trade. We might work together even if we don't trust each other.
-[X] Rionna helps with Dewitching research and making the world a better place.
--[X] You can promise that it is exactly what it sounds like
[X] You'll help Riona achieve her goals, just like you want for every magical girl. We have reach and power
-[X] First, we want to apprentice on her enforcement tasks. We will show her our morality as action. She can overwatch.
-[X] Help grant her heart's desire? Even if it's just something that doesn't help others, but makes her happier.
---[X] What could we offer, in exchange for no further soul taking while we cooperate?
[x] Please. Help us.
Conditionals:
Offer to hunt a witch as a learning exercise re: de-witching
Offer to teach decoding witch Runes.
Having us is out of the picture. But Borrowing us suits just fine.
I am trying to get into Rionna's story, and using the parts of other votes that might fit well to get there. Adding in the bait of "Sabrina joins your cause." Preparing conditions for the possibility that Rionna has a witch in her care. If she does not, we can still use the same elements to other ends.
[X] Find her core goals.
-[X] Ask bluntly.
--[X] Everyone has something that drives them. We exist to break the magical girl system. Some people only cling to life by reflex.
--[X] Why does she choose to live? (Phrasing, very specifically: not "why is she alive". The meaning must clearly refer to what she lives for, and not lean towards implying that we are asking why we shouldn't kill her.)
-[X] She has a motive in targeting Grief movers. And it sounds like she can't relocate to work with you.
-[X] is her drink enchanted with Memories?
[x] You came here looking for a charlatan, a dragon to slay, but we're not your enemy. We help people. Ask Nadia Bennouna, she'll confirm.
-[X] We don't want anyone to witchout either. We can make a world where no one does, ever again.
[X] Her interests are relevant to us because we want to propose a trade. We might work together even if we don't trust each other.
-[X] Rionna helps with Dewitching research and making the world a better place.
--[X] You can promise that it is exactly what it sounds like
[X] You'll help Riona achieve her goals, just like you want for every magical girl. We have reach and power
-[X] First, we want to apprentice on her enforcement tasks. We will show her our morality as action. She can overwatch.
-[X] Help grant her heart's desire? Even if it's just something that doesn't help others, but makes her happier.
---[X] What could we offer, in exchange for no further soul taking while we cooperate?
[x] Please. Help us.
Conditionals:
Offer to hunt a witch as a learning exercise re: de-witching
Offer to teach decoding witch Runes.
Having us is out of the picture. But Borrowing us suits just fine.
I am trying to get into Rionna's story, and using the parts of other votes that might fit well to get there. Adding in the bait of "Sabrina joins your cause." Preparing conditions for the possibility that Rionna has a witch in her care. If she does not, we can still use the same elements to other ends.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I realized another reason why I wanted a plan as dumb as soul insurance in the first place. I don't think Oriko could have forseen us doing something that stupid, so it's in the same territory of ridiculousness as the timestop hunt(Not that the timestop hunt was stupid).
It's so stupid it's outside of whatever projections of doom and gloom she may have had.
It's so stupid it's outside of whatever projections of doom and gloom she may have had.
- Location
- Illinois
Gonna muck with this. It's too indirect, to be quite frank. The whole "you can promise that blah blah blah" and "she obviously isn't doing XYZ because T and it sounds like V"... no. Just, no. No.
That stuff is exactly what's been wrong with our approach so far. We've gone two posts since Rionna said, out loud, "Yerra, y' can't help me at all, can you?"
The first thing that needs to be done is that we need to directly disagree with that. The second thing that needs to be done is that we need to directly communicate to her that we know damn well where her problem is and still believe we can help with it, because she appears to be assuming
that we will not be willing to travel to Scotland with her. When, on the contrary, we are totally capable of & willing to do that, just not by @#*)(!!$ twelve-hour commercial air.
She thinks that she no longer has anything to gain here. And until she stops believing that, nothing we say will be treated in any manner except dismissively. Therefore, we must address that immediately.
[X] Be as direct as possible.
-[X] Begin by countering her earlier assertion that we "can't help her at all." We can help her: we are capable of much beyond moving grief around, and most of what we aren't capable of we have people for, or we expect to become capable of in the near-to-mid term.
--[X] Given what she's told us, and given her presence here, it's pretty clear that there is a problem involving something she values above most else back home.
[X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
And... just leave it there, with the implication that we should be able to help her with her problem. Her reaction to that should be quite informative. We can talk about deals and trades and goals and etcetera after we get to the point.
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- Location
- Illinois
...
Nothing personal, but there's only one response to this.
[Q] Pick up your hammer, and hit Raiseth in the face.
-[Q] CHECKMATE ORIKOS
Riona can't not right now inside the privacy sphere; and we haven't agreed to let her out yet, or if we interpret it as an hostile action.
So no, this time we don't have Nadia to help us back up our claims.
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- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Man
I misread that as Checkmate Oreos.
Now I feel hungry.
This is all
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Refined Kaizuki's a bit.
[X] Be as direct as possible.
-[X] Begin by countering her earlier assertion that we "can't help her at all." True Grief Manipulation is extremely flexible, and most of what we aren't capable of we have people for, or we expect to become capable of in the near-to-mid term.
--[X] Given what she's told us, and given her presence here, it's pretty clear that there is a problem involving something she values above most else back home.
--[X] If it takes a trip by hypersonic grief aircraft with timestop to fulfill your end of a bargain, so be it.
[X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
[X] Be as direct as possible.
-[X] Begin by countering her earlier assertion that we "can't help her at all." True Grief Manipulation is extremely flexible, and most of what we aren't capable of we have people for, or we expect to become capable of in the near-to-mid term.
--[X] Given what she's told us, and given her presence here, it's pretty clear that there is a problem involving something she values above most else back home.
--[X] If it takes a trip by hypersonic grief aircraft with timestop to fulfill your end of a bargain, so be it.
[X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
*Gets hit with a hammer in the face over a debate with Conjured Blade*
*Feels that things have become very personal, for some reason*
Edit: on another note, I like your vote, Kai, but would you consider putting more meat on it? For example, ramming the Hope-filled Grief Seed down her metaphorical throat?
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AsuraKyoko
The Witch who was known as the Goddess of War
- Location
- Brockton Bay
Well, I am now faced with a choice between several good looking options, but in the end,
[X] Conjured Blade
[X] Conjured Blade
TJSomething
That's... that's impossible!
Probably want to keep timestop under wraps and just hint that we can casually fly around the world at the speed of a spacecraft. Something like:
[X] Be as direct as possible.
-[X] Begin by countering her earlier assertion that we "can't help her at all." True Grief Manipulation is extremely flexible, and most of what we aren't capable of we have people for, or we expect to become capable of in the near-to-mid term.
--[X] Given what she's told us, and given her presence here, it's pretty clear that there is a problem involving something she values above most else back home.
--[X] If it takes a trip by hypersonic grief spacecraft to fulfill your end of a bargain, so be it.
[X] Cut to voting fairly quickly.
I was thinking about the possibility of us going to Edinburgh before her flight even gets there. I'd guess that we would trigger the automatic city ghost security system. If her security is fully automated, her ghosts could bodykill invading meguca and she would never know if they were good people or not. And if she has their souls anyway, then she may as well put them to use.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I'd really rather not let her know about timestop.
Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
It would not be a good idea to keep her in the privacy sphere as some sort of trap to spring on her if we cannot tolerate her.
For one, as it's been pointed out, Sabrina's reflexes are shit. Two, as it's also been mentioned, we are in a building filled with civilians. And thirdly, she is surprisingly calm and confident for someone who has been lured into a Kryptonite Vault.
I (and others) really believe she is holding back applications of her power that would make this a trap for us* rather than for her. On top of being a top tier Magical Girl who runs her own city.
To sum it up, no it is not necessary to hold the privacy field over her 'just in case'. We could let her contact Nadia for a confirmation of our good reputation.
In any case, it would not be prudent to attack her now, as this 'opportunity' is an unknown risk that is also unnecessary.
She is not going to enslave any new Shades during her one day stay in Mitakihara, and if she tries it would shift the onus of breaking a truce onto her reputation, not ours!
And if we decide we cannot allow her to continue operating, we can take care of that when we have proper backup**, a plan, and better knowledge of her abilities.
*She's a cross between 'Mad-Eye Moody' and 'Jerk Batman' from BvS; it is extremely arrogant to assume she walked right into a field that neutralizes her power and then kindly let us know she was helpless. She doesn't even have to be untruthful, just let us come to our own conclusions.
Her Shades can interpret complicated conditional commands that they can carry out without extra input. This isn't even speculation, it is the basis for why we consiser her a slaver!
She could have only been cut off from summoning Shades outside of the barrier, but still have smuggled in her most useful and dependable ones.
One of those could be a grief-controller that could transfer the grief in her Gem in some other container, faster than we could lock on to it.
**The one weakness she has shown is that in her overconfidence, she hasn't bothered to study us beyond cursory assumptions either.
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- Location
- Potato land
The theory about Rionna's sister witching out would indeed explain a lot about her behaviour. The problem I see here, is that if we take the comparison to Homura as well as Oriko's warning seriously, then there's no way she's actually going to tell us about it. Doesn't matter how we ask, we'll just be told to mind our own business. The idea of actually needing help from others and asking for it should be as foreign to her as it was to Homura before we defrosted her a bit.
In different circumstances, without half the thread ready to gem Rionna on the spot, maybe we could've just established some rapport here, and then slowly built enough trust for her to divulge her secret. I don't think that's an option given what we collectively feel about her modus operandi.
Finally, given how the conversation has gone thus far, I think we need to put her off balance somehow, or else we'll continue treading water. I'm not super happy with my vote, but I think it's the only one with the potential to accomplish this, so I'm going to stick with it for now.
In different circumstances, without half the thread ready to gem Rionna on the spot, maybe we could've just established some rapport here, and then slowly built enough trust for her to divulge her secret. I don't think that's an option given what we collectively feel about her modus operandi.
Finally, given how the conversation has gone thus far, I think we need to put her off balance somehow, or else we'll continue treading water. I'm not super happy with my vote, but I think it's the only one with the potential to accomplish this, so I'm going to stick with it for now.
TJSomething
That's... that's impossible!
Quick back of envelope calculations indicate that, at speeds that spaceplanes are expected to go (mach 10, or about 12000 km/h) and assuming that we stay below the speed of sound at sea level (~1200 km/h) until the edge of space (100 km above sea level), we can still get into space in less than 5 minutes, then fly to Edinburgh (~9000 km) in less than 45 minutes. And that's an upper limit, since grief is bullshit.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I realized we already demonstrated we're capable of more than just moving grief around with the privacy field and figured out how to shorten Kaizuki's vote.
[x]If the reason you think I can't help you, the reason you want my power, is related to something in Edinburgh, I am entirely willing to use hypersonic grief spacecraft to fly there. Perhaps a trade?
[x]If the reason you think I can't help you, the reason you want my power, is related to something in Edinburgh, I am entirely willing to use hypersonic grief spacecraft to fly there. Perhaps a trade?
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
What are the high-level goals of this vote again? Are you trying to gain her trust, are you trying to figure out what her goals are so we can figure out a counter-offer, are you just trying to figure out why she's ganking grief spreaders?
[] She's being obstructive because she thinks you can't offer her anything and that this trip will be a waste unless she can goad you into a fight and take your soul. Convince her otherwise.
[] You have much more to offer her than just moving grief around. The privacy sphere is a good demonstration of your conceptual capabilities. Or, you think you could have her back home in approximately an hour. And you have teammates to cover the few things you can't do.
[] Ask her what it is she values so much, and what the problem is back home.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I think she's already aware true grief manipulation is hax beyond moving grief around due to being in a privacy sphere right now.