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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Gadjo said:
Uh, still definitely not cool with her having Sabrina's soul cus she'd definitely misuse that power like no one's business.
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Even as bait to string her along with. I'm at a loss then. We'll just need to let the votes decide I guess. I'm not sure what else we can do that would get basically surefire, immediate concessions out of her.
 
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Alright. I'm less certain this will work and it doesn't get the same level of concessions but I guess I'll go for Redshirts current plan.

[X] Everyone has a goal of some kind, something that keeps them going.
-[x] You already know mine. Yours I'm not so sure on. I think there's something specific you want to do with my power. Something beyond survival.

-[x] We both want what the other one of us can provide. We don't trust each other enough to cooperate... *yet*. So we'll trade. You help me find out what happens with Dewitching research, and whatever your goal is... so long as your goal itself isn't hurting people, if you keep just your current number of wraiths, I'll help you with it, and I'll prove to you with actions, not words, that you don't need to rely on those shades forever to accomplish it.
 
Rionna isn't the sort to pull punches, or try to downplay her misdeeds. If she ate someone unambiguously good, I think she'd have admitted it. Same goes for the level of awareness of the wraiths - if she knew they were conscious, I suspect she'd have said so. (That said, she might be willfully repressing to stay sane, but even that would imply a working moral compass.)

So who is she targeting, then, such that she "doesn't know" if they're good people or not? To me, that sounds like she's taking souls in retaliation for attacking her (or whatever she's protecting). Which has all kinds of Oriko/Homura parallels - Homura repeatedly executed Oriko in the following timelines because she'd attacked Madoka in one. If Homura had Rionna's wish granted power instead...

We mishandled Akiko because we didn't know what her "brain damage" was. We could probably have gotten her fully on our side if we'd gotten to Clear Seeds and dewitching slightly faster. We have a lot more clues as to Rionna's past and why she'd act like she does, this time - and I'd like Sabrina to try to improve from her past mistakes.

Perhaps I'm giving Rionna too much credit, of course, but if we refuse to hear out her side just because we don't have a handy dandy canon cheat sheet, well... we won't ever be able to fix everything. Just "everything the official PMMM mats cover." And that's not good enough - imagine how we'd have handled the canon cast and Kyubey without metaknowledge, if we jumped to conclusions based on first impressions like this?
 
I disagree with the "insurance" idea even more strongly than from the "it's better than a bad end" view. Remember that magical girls run on optimism, and that Sabrina's purpose is to fix everything. The only acceptable outcome is success. There is no way to mitigate Sabrina failing - it's simply game over, no way to change that.

As for the argument about using it as bait, I don't think that Sabrina lies very well, I don't think that Riona will buy it, and I don't think it's very useful anyway. The things that'd kill us wouldn't give her time to fly to Mitakihara from Edigburgh, after all.

Goal-focused rewrite of Redshirt, hoping to kick up some ideas:

[] Find out what her core goals are.
-[] Just ask her bluntly.
-[] Everyone has something that makes them keep going. Yours is obvious. Some people just refuse to die. But what about Riona?
-[] She obviously isn't flying around ganking grief spreaders out of the goodness of her heart. And it sounds like she can't easily relocate to work with you.
-[] So what's so important that she has to defend, and why is she collecting grief spreaders?

[] You need to know what she wants because you want to propose a trade, because that might help you work together even if you don't trust each other.
-[] Riona helps with Dewitching research and making the world a better place.
--[] You can promise that it is exactly what it sounds like, that you intend to do good, and that you have enough power to refuse to make "hard decisions".
-[] You'll help Riona achieve her goals, just like you want for every magical girl.
--[] Can she promise that her goal makes the world a better place? You have enough power to offer her means to her ends that don't make her drink her pain away, if that's what she's doing.
 
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Vebyast said:
The things that'd kill us wouldn't give her time to fly to Mitakihara from Edigburgh, after all.
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That part at least, was based on the notion she'd be near us frequently/she would extend her stay in Mitakihara because she was that tempted, and therefore not go roving around being the Punisher/a hanging judge/whatever term you want to use, enabling us to work on her.

Edit: Another thing is that the insurance pitch doesn't require us to tell any direct lies. Our concerns are theoretically possible at least.
 
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So, important point: While Rionna having a sister-in-need (or somebody in need, etc.) is a possibility, it is by no means guaranteed and should not be assumed true when constructing votes. It feels a bit like that at the moment.
 
I mostly like @Vebyast 's take on the vote. I think the "drink the pain away" thing comes across as a bit too judgey/preachy and might get us snapped at though. Actually, all of that last segment can be improved.

[] Find out what her core goals are.
-[] Just ask her bluntly.
-[] Everyone has something that makes them keep going. Yours is obvious. Some people just refuse to die. But what about Riona?
-[] She obviously isn't flying around ganking grief spreaders out of the goodness of her heart. And it sounds like she can't relocate to work with you.
-[] So what's so important that she has to defend, and why is she collecting grief spreaders?

[] You need to know what she wants because you want to propose a trade, because that might help you work together even if you don't trust each other.
-[] Riona helps with Dewitching research and making the world a better place.
--[] You can promise that it is exactly what it sounds like, that you intend to do good, and that you have enough power to refuse to make "hard decisions".
-[] You'll help Riona achieve her goals, just like you want for every magical girl.
--[] Can she promise that her goal makes the world a better place? Even if it's just something that doesn't hurt others, but makes her happier. You have enough power to offer her means to her ends that won't be nearly as harsh.
 
I'm for whichever vote is most... Er, or least... Hmm. I'm not sure how to say it without risking offending somebody.

Basically I want to TEMPORARILY ignore her moral transgressions for the sake of fostering increased understanding and possibly trust.

That is to say, we've talked with her for 10 or so minutes and each of us is on edge and expecting or fearing the other could attack (and somehow even win) at the slightest provocation.

We should maybe put the proverbial gun down before we start making demands or bartering concessions.

I'd very much like it if the next words Sabrina spoke were "okay, shelving that topic for now... [Insert question here (perhaps: how do you feel about dewitching?)]

So yeah. Whichever plan does that.
 
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Hm. Perhaps:

[] Find her core goals.
-[] Directly ask.
--[] We want something out of this meeting that isn't a fight neither of us wants to start or finish now, so tell me what you want and I'll tell you what I want.
-[] You're actively keeping a city clear of magicals and specifically hunting down people like me. That's not because your heart really bleeds for people like me.
--[] So why are you looking for magicals like me?

[] Propose working together on "Dewitching".
-[] Promise sincerity on the deal in exchange for assistance with whatever she's defending and resolving future conflicts using "nice" methods.
 
[X] Find her core goals.
-[X] Ask bluntly.
--[X] Everyone has something that drives them. Yours is breaking the magical girl system. Some people just refuse to die. But what's hers?
-[X] She obviously isn't flying around ganking grief controllers out of the goodness of her heart. And it sounds like she can't relocate to work with you.

[X] You need to know what she wants because you want to propose a trade, because that might help you work together even if you don't trust each other.
-[X] Rionna helps with Dewitching research and making the world a better place.
--[X] You can promise that it is exactly what it sounds like, that you intend to do good, and that you have enough power to cut through "hard decisions".
-[X] You'll help Riona achieve her goals, just like you want for every magical girl.
--[X] Does her goal makes the world a better place? Even if it's just something that doesn't hurt others, but makes her happier. If it is, then you have enough power to offer her means to her ends that won't be nearly as harsh.
 
[X] Find her core goals.
-[X] Ask bluntly.
--[X] Everyone has something that drives them. Yours is breaking the magical girl system. Some people just refuse to die. But what's hers?
-[X] She obviously isn't flying around ganking grief controllers out of the goodness of her heart. And it sounds like she can't relocate to work with you.

[X] You need to know what she wants because you want to propose a trade, because that might help you work together even if you don't trust each other.
-[X] Rionna helps with Dewitching research and making the world a better place.
--[X] You can promise that it is exactly what it sounds like, that you intend to do good, and that you have enough power to cut through "hard decisions".
-[X] You'll help Riona achieve her goals, just like you want for every magical girl.
--[X] Does her goal makes the world a better place? Even if it's just something that doesn't hurt others, but makes her happier. If it is, then you have enough power to offer her means to her ends that won't be nearly as harsh.
---[X] What could we offer, that would be worth her refraining from creating any more wraiths while we cooperate?
 
No one is that socially inept. By that point it's clear that Rionna is either trying to provoke us (to either test if mutual cooperation between us is even possible - the benevolent interpretation, or to get to kill us for our power and claim self-defence - the less benevolent one), or to put us "in our place".

In the latter case, then from her POV, she is probably being considerate. She is a veteran magical girl with established reputation, while we are just (from her POV) a naive newbie that won the magical power lottery. From that perspective, her "you don't have to trust me, I don't have to trust you; I don't judge you and you don't get to judge me" is showing us the respect of treating us as - sorta - peers. Which means that it doesn't matter if we are morally right, from her POV, we greatly overstepped the bounds. So she is "helping" us to get back inside them and to get this negotiations back to the track where neither side is trying to command the other to totally re-work their entire way of life.

Idealistic speeches won't work. Rionna might believe our power, but she clearly doesn't respect us enough to believe that we will be able to correctly apply it to overturn the system for the better. There's no way she is going to be willing to give up her power and start relying on us for protection (basically become our vassal), just because of moral reasons. Especially if she thinks our cause is likely to end up FUBAR at one point.

So this needs either negotiations from the position of absolute strength, like with Oriko, or pragmatic offers.

At current rate, it is quite likely going to end up with violence. To avoid it, we need to either:

1) Give her not only a Clear Seed, but something else, to serve as a weapon/tool to protect herself and her territory, as powerful as her shades and, in case she needs her shades for some other reason (likely related to her sister), to fulfil that purpose, too.

I have no idea what that would be.

2) Find out if there is something that she truly wants, that only we can do, that she values more than her power (likely related to her sister). So that she would be willing to give up her shades and rely on us for protection, if that's our price. And also, make it sound a better offer than just trying to risk taking our shade by force.

More invasive dialogue is required for the info we would need for making such an offer. That could lead to mortal combat, but so likely does our current direction anyway, if something is not done.
 
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Firnagzen said:
I will be keeping a closer eye on the thread, and threadbans... I haven't used them properly before, but if you need the time to cool off, I'm going to use it.
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I stepped out of the thread pretty much the moment after reading the last post to clear the blast radius. While everyone at this point is at fault and entirely too caught up in the character I've got to ask?

When you thought up this plot twist did you really not see this coming? I mostly lurk and I can honestly say I saw this setting the thread in flames before I finished reading your last post. It was an 'oh shit here it comes' moment, I mean without more details then you gave us there was no chance of anything happening besides the thread blowing up.

Not blaming you but next time please give yourself a few more days to enlarge your post with more details when you go for a plot twist as explosive as this.
 
I think iy will be a bad idea for Riona to release the shades immedietely, If those souls don't have a body anymore, they will suffer true death.

If I were her victim, I would prefer to be released with a healthy body available, instead of goint to the afterlife inmediately.
 
That Riona's sister might have witched out had occurred to me, but I'd been assuming that Riona had destroyed her and was just keeping the Seed. But of course, not everyone thinks clearly or understands how the Seeds work, and lots of meguca have refused to fight the witch of a former loved one.

So I think bringing up Dewitching is vital.

That said, I'd rather jump to it a little more quickly rather than beating around the bush, to avoid getting preempted again.
 
[X] Redshirt Army

Not sure she'll believe us, but if she goes on with her "Edgy Ono" impersonation, I don't know what to do.
 
[x] Redshirt Army

As a side note (and this might just be my paranoia talking): is it possible that, since Riona can see Sabrina's soul and all, she can also see the forum updating?
 
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