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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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kinigget said:
And, again, this is why I didn't want to pass judgement on her in the first place
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Not speaking against you, just quoting this line.

Judgemenet should not be passes before one has all the data one can get. Not until the end, until it becomes necessary.

Any judgement that is cast before having all the relevant details will be, by necessity, faulty. Much worse, it will colour every subsequent judgement that's done afterwards. Even if one tries not to, once one has judge something or someone to be one way, they will try to make future data fit into that preconception, clouding their judgement.

Riona was very much judged by her powers, for the danger she potentially represents, and the threats she put forward willingly.

We don't actually know her, nor how true anything she said is. She presents herself as someone to be feared, and many here simply buy into that, and let fear dictate their thoughts.

I will not judge Riona until it becomes necessary.

If it became necessary, if Riona refused to cooperate, if she stayed on the defensive, if she kept threatening us... I would rather vote to close the Privacy Sphere so she couldn't exit, and sit down staring at her until after her plane left tomorrow if necessary, rather than any sort of violence.

Riona might not like it, but she's a troubled teenager with a chip on her shoulder.

I'd rather be the adult. It can take hours, days, weeks, months, to get through to a kid or teenager.

This is going to happen again, and again, and again, and again, unless all our plans about helping those who need help was a bunch of crap.

I will have Sabrina keep talking. If Riona tries to leave, I will have Sabrina insist.

If Riona stops barking and acting in an offensive way, then she will have forced our hand. Then we'll need to pull all the stops so we can de-Gem her and contain her.
 
Vebyast said:
Fuck this entire discussion.

[X] Gemsplode her.

We're going to have this discussion about the Iowa Group, and about Walpurgisnacht, and about Kyubey, and fuck all that. They do bad things, and apparently every time we run into someone doing bad things we get a shit-ton of lurkers crawling out of their holes to apologise for the murders and keep us from doing anything to prevent more. Fuck that. If Sabrina's social was functional and our choice was between "redeem" and "freezer", I'd pick redeem. But the way things are going our social is so crippled that the choice is between "let her walk away" and "kill her", and I know which of those I'm taking. I don't want to have this discussion every time we run into someone that might just be "misunderstood". Like Jack Slash and Hannibal Lecter and Emperor Palpatine were misunderstood. No.

Remember, Madokami genocided the race of witches, and she did it by gemsploding every magical girl in history the instant before she witched out. Madokami would fucking do something about this. Regretfully, and in kindness... but inevitably.
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Did the awful, awful lurkers also choose to coerce Oriko into cooperating by threatening her beloved's soul, because the alternative was killing her? Did they choose to stubbornly negotiate with Akiko even as it became obvious a fight was inevitable? Did they let Hijiri go? Forced the poor, bloodthirsty regulars to actually get Anri some help instead of just throwing her in a freezer?

Listen, it's obvious that you're upset about the direction this discussion's taking, but complaining about having more participation in a quest because of that is really not a good road to take.

Redshirt Army said:
Also, fair warning @Godwinson , @AuraTwilight , if I see many more calls to straight up kill Rionna like Vebyast and Aranfan have done, I'm probably going to switch to Roomba's vote. So, uh, one of you might want to copy me or write something up.
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Just to point something out, my vote isn't actually intended as a prelude to "Let her go and forget about it". It's more like "Don't start a fight here and now, and without the input of our friends". The option to gem her before she flies back, or afterwards, is very much on the table as far as I'm concerned.
 
zxzx24 said:
Hell of an assumption to make, especially since we are seeing the consequences of said assumption running wild.


This is what I would like to do as well.

Edit: My bad, I expected there to have been another post by now. So. Sorry.
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I'm not the one who's been arguing that soul-armies is all Riona has to defend herself that's why she needs to keep them.

Redshirt Army said:
@AuraTwilight

I would like to point out that by my reading, "I'll finish the fight neither of us want" is something you say specifically to convey that you won't start a fight.

So by my reading, she's saying "if you attack me, I'll make you regret it", not "if you criticize me IMMA FUCKIN KEEL U"
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I mean, she literally said "Tell me what to do, and..."

Spectral Waltz said:
Now see, Aran, Aura? This is an actual argument. Not just shaky and repetitive accusations.

I still disagree on points, largely in that I don't feel Kai has really properly considered the little inconsistencies that suggest Riona may have motives she has not brought up yet or that she might be deliberately baiting us for one reason or another. However, it is a good argument, and has done more to sway me to actually consider a more hostile response than any of you two's pointless screaming has done for pages now.

Take note.
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Hey, fuck off with this. I made better arguments earlier and people kept nitpicking me and attacking my fucking character. Thanks.
 
[x] Redshirt Army

I uh, don't really see where the ambiguity is here. Why would she lie about this? What she wants is in her grasp, and she's basically singing a villain song. I don't see why we wouldn't judge this, cus this is, uh, evil. She says she needs her shades to protect her town, but you don't need to squabble over territory when you have infinite cleansing. I'd say she doesn't trust Sabrina because she can't trust anyone who hears that and goes "...excuse me, but what the fuck?" because they all eventually try to take her down out of simply being unable to ignore that kind of evil.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by TJSomething on Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM, finished with 396 posts and 27 votes.
  • [X] Reaction: Disappointment. Tone: Very serious.
    -[X] Calm down.
    -[X] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.
    [X] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
    -[X] Show her Aurora.
    --[X] Ask if she sees anything unusual in the Seed.
    --[X] Briefly explain your dewitchification experiments.
    -[X] When you heard about her from Nadia, you were really happy, because an expert on souls could make a huge difference in making this dream a reality.
    -[X] ...but you can't work with her. Not while she continues to enslave souls. You'll try not to judge, but you're not going to condone it.
    [X] She came here with the intent of killing another false Grief controller. What does she intend to do now?
    -[X] She went out of her way to present herself as a villain who enjoys enslaving others. You don't intend to buy into that provocation, if that's what she was hoping for.
    -[X] She is free to stay in Mitakihara as long as she doesn't cause any trouble.
    -[X] Your offer remains open, if she changes her mind.
    [X] Be on guard for any aggressive moves, and be ready to signal Mami and Homura if it looks like Rionna is going to attack.
    [x] Keep Rionna talking.
    -[x] Flat out tell her that you want her help with dewitching, and that you're offering her the cleansing she wants. Why is she so willing to leave?
    [x] ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET RIONNA NOTICE THIS, KEEP YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THIS MUTED:
    -[x] Calmly message Mami with grief, requesting that she not react and contact Homura for timestop, please.
    --[x] You need to discuss what Rionna has said with Mami, Homura, and Sayaka to decide what to do. You won't commit to any action without that discussion first.
    ---[x] Keep calm, do not commit to hostile action against Rionna in your mind.
    [x] You flew half way around the world to find a real Grief cleanser, and you're just going to leave? No. You came here looking for something. Well, so am I. Let's deal.
    [x] I'm trying to figure out how to turn a witch back into a person. The Clear Seed is the first step. They have thousands of times the capacity of regular Grief Seeds. One of these can keep a magical girl clean for centuries. And eventually we hope to enchant something that will do the job without needing souls at all. No more witchouts. No more used Seeds going into Kyubey's back for him to do god-knows-what to. No more need for girls to put themselves through this hell of hunting and fighting to survive. We can all just live like real people.
    [x] When we no longer need Seeds to survive, we can start helping them, too. We've already gotten some small results from injecting positive emotions into the Clear Seed. Your soul powers might be the key to making this back into a Soul Gem.
    [x] You came here looking for a charlatan, a dragon to slay, but I'm not your enemy. I want to help people. Ask Nadia Bennouna, she'll confirm that I'm for real.
    [x] You fought the false Grief Cleansers because they were witching girls out. We don't want anyone to witchout either. We can make a world where no one does, ever again.
    [x] Please. Help us.
    [X] Sigh, relax your visible tension, maybe slump a little bit.
    -[X] "You're not very easy to work with."
    [X] Explain and demonstrate your power
    -[X] Pull grief from your soul gem, float it around, make a few shapes. Perhaps a flute that starts softly playing music?
    -[X] Pull a little bit of grief from a grief seed, just to prove its possible
    --[X] Explain that floating grief is easy to manage, especially given use of a 4th dimension of space. If the cloud ever gets to be a bit too much you can just shove it down Kyubey's backhole. We can demonstrate this afterwards if she'd like.
    [X] After power explanation, move on to explaining your goals.
    -[X] Emphasize your desire for magical girls around the world to be able to live normal lives
    --[X] Ultimately, you want to break Kyubey's wretched system of grief and suffering, and replace it with something better
    ---[X] Some enchanted artefact that can absorb grief, or the proliferation of clear seeds or something that'll ensure magical girls can live long and peaceful lives, witches can be slowly but surely removed as a threat, and maybe Kyubey can even still accumulate grief for his anti-entropy efforts.
    [X] Now Riona knows what you can do and what your goals are. What's her place going to be in things?
    -[X] She can choose to help Sabrina with her powers, with her experience and very different perspective
    -[X] She can choose to go home in peace and deal with her own shit for however long it takes for Sabrina to fix things and bring infinite cleansings all the way to Ireland
    -[X] She can, for whatever reason, oppose this. Preferably with logical argument rather than sudden hostilities. Maaaybe don't mention this? Let it go unsaid unless she comments.
    --[X] Whatever her immediate choices, know that enslaved and possibly suffering shades of the dead won't be tolerated forever. That kind of shit belongs in Kyubey's system, not ours.
    [X] Discretely call Mami for an emergency timestop meeting with her, Homura and Sayaka
    -[X] Get them up to date with the meering with Riona.
    -[X] Discuss the next course of action
    [X] You don't care, do you?
    [X] Gem her if the answer is no.
    [x] Why?
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Gadjo said:
[x] Redshirt Army

I uh, don't really see where the ambiguity is here. Why would she lie about this? What she wants is in her grasp, and she's basically singing a villain song. I don't see why we wouldn't judge this, cus this is, uh, evil. She says she needs her shades to protect her town, but you don't need to squabble over territory when you have infinite cleansing. I'd say she doesn't trust Sabrina because she can't trust anyone who hears that and goes "...excuse me, but what the fuck?" because they all eventually try to take her down out of simply being unable to ignore that kind of evil.
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Except for the part where I don't think she actually realizes the extent of Sabrina's power or capabilities. She's underestimating us and doesn't think we're actually capable of putting our money where our mouth is.

At that point it's more experience and pragmatism than 'lolimsoevil'.
 
One reason about the next-day travel back home could be that there's a limit to how long she can leave her shades unattended without having to renew her control.

If she has to physically go to them and renew her power every four or five days, there might not be much margin on international trips.
 
Gadjo said:
I uh, don't really see where the ambiguity is here. Why would she lie about this? What she wants is in her grasp, and she's basically singing a villain song. I don't see why we wouldn't judge this, cus this is, uh, evil. She says she needs her shades to protect her town, but you don't need to squabble over territory when you have infinite cleansing. I'd say she doesn't trust Sabrina because she can't trust anyone who hears that and goes "...excuse me, but what the fuck?" because they all eventually try to take her down out of simply being unable to ignore that kind of evil.
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Doing so puts her under Sabrina's power, and Sabrina is a person she knows zero about and trusts not at all. She has almost certainly been burned before, and even if she trusts Sabrina's intentions (big stretch there), there are lots of ways for an idealistic newbie to betray someone's trust without meaning too. It also probably doesn't help that she's been personally acquainted with several prior Grief Manipulators, who were all bastards.
 
PhDEevee said:
Doing so puts her under Sabrina's power, and Sabrina is a person she knows zero about and trusts not at all. She has almost certainly been burned before, and even if she trusts Sabrina's intentions (big stretch there), there are lots of ways for an idealistic newbie to betray someone's trust without meaning too. It also probably doesn't help that she's been personally acquainted with several prior Grief Manipulators, who were all bastards.
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And that she didn't even try to compromise with "I can't do that, but I won't touch any souls in your country" is... alarming.
 
Spectral Waltz said:
Except for the part where I don't think she actually realizes the extent of Sabrina's power or capabilities. She's underestimating us and doesn't think we're actually capable of putting our money where our mouth is.

At that point it's more experience and pragmatism than 'lolimsoevil'.
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No...? We've clearly demonstrated true cleansing. Even if that was all Sabrina could do a massive powerbase would easily build up around her. And uh, I know it looks like she's feeling judged but uh, good? Generally you ought to feel judged for stealing people's souls? People you meet not liking you when you go full evil in a game is generally expected, because of that time you stole a bunch of people's souls, and the fact that you're currently bragging about it?
 
A lot of people are giving her a lot of shit for not trusting us. Despite us showing how unwilling we were to trust her.

We have never had a problem giving out grief seeds before, even to people who are less than amazing. I dont know why we didnt even let her look at one.

We refused to awnser her question about our origins. Which is just... Shady? Incredibly so? Shes waiting for the rub ready to fight, and if she can see our soul she probably has a decent idea of what were thinking.

We probably also aren't the first person to have gone REEEEE ABOMINATION WITCH KILL!!! on her.

Lastly. I think her not trying to Glamorize slavery is kind of a mark to her credit, not her detriment.
 
And she said nothing about "proving ourselves" to her first. She basically went "nah you think I'm evil for soul stealing people? Fuck off we can't work together"

Like uh, frankly that is completely evil.
 
NB4 Oriko has a secret plan to make a self-sacrifice play by having Riona claim her soul so that her precognitive power can be used freely again by her shade, allowing the world to be saved.
 
Briefvoice said:
I think there's excellent odds that Riona's "Rawwwr, I am mean and tough and have no conscience and I'll steal anybody's soul that gets in my way," act is... just an act. One that she's found is oriented to long term survival, because being tough and aggressive to anyone you think might challenge you really can scare people away.

It's been point out already that in literal seconds she went from, "Judge me if you want," to "Don't you dare judge me!"
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She bought round trip plane tickets one day apart. There's no act there.

Roomba said:
Listen, it's obvious that you're upset about the direction this discussion's taking, but complaining about having more participation in a quest because of that is really not a good road to take.
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When the participation comes in and makes the discussion about whether the fucking mass murderer did anything wrong or should be allowed to continue murdering, yeah, I do get fucking angry. Hijiri was about how best to help her. Oriko was how best to not have to kill her. This? We have people saying that we need more evidence before we can disapprove of the part where she killed a fuckton of people. We have people saying that she made the world a better place and we should let her go back to what she was doing. We have people excusing her claims of outright unjustified murder because she "just" wants an excuse to kill us, take our soul, and keep murdering the fuck out of whoever she liked, as if that's any better. We don't have to deal with any of this shit 99% of the time. Yes, I absolutely do disapprove of the positions that are being brought in. I don't think they are what this quest is about or what we want on this forum.
Roomba said:
Did the awful, awful lurkers also cho
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This does not help your case. Quit it.
 
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zxzx24 said:
A lot of people are giving her a lot of shit for not trusting us. Despite us showing how unwilling we were to trust her.

We have never had a problem giving out grief seeds before, even to people who are less than amazing. I dont know why we didnt even let her look at one.

We refused to awnser her question about our origins. Which is just... Shady? Incredibly so? Shes waiting for the rub ready to fight, and if she can see our soul she probably has a decent idea of what were thinking.

We probably also aren't the first person to have gone REEEEE ABOMINATION WITCH KILL!!! on her.

Lastly. I think her not trying to Glamorize slavery is kind of a mark to her credit, not her detriment.
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From top to bottom:

We were pretty trusting until "I rip out souls lol"

We always, ALWAYS had the rule of "don't be a cartoon supervillain" with Clear Seeds, and it's really not ethical to give a Clear seed to someone, even to look at, after they explain they make ghost-slaves.

We can't answer her questions about our origins because they're completely fucking baseless hypothesises and giving details betrays Homura's trust and the safety of our friends.
 
zxzx24 said:
A lot of people are giving her a lot of shit for not trusting us. Despite us showing how unwilling we were to trust her.

We have never had a problem giving out grief seeds before, even to people who are less than amazing. I dont know why we didnt even let her look at one.

We refused to awnser her question about our origins. Which is just... Shady? Incredibly so? Shes waiting for the rub ready to fight, and if she can see our soul she probably has a decent idea of what were thinking.

We probably also aren't the first person to have gone REEEEE ABOMINATION WITCH KILL!!! on her.

Lastly. I think her not trying to Glamorize slavery is kind of a mark to her credit, not her detriment.
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Look, saying "Yeah, I steal people's souls the hard way. Maybe even some good people." is not a mark in your favor if you keep doing it. You do not get points for self-awareness at that point. Also, of course we're not willing to trust her, she steals people's souls! That's generally agreed as not very trustworthy! Also also, we did tell her about our origins, except for the big part, and not only is that speculation but we don't owe her our life story.
 
I mean I dont judge Homura for killing a fuck ton of people.

Or those stupid stupid stupid magical girls who started a fight in the middle of a city for no reason.

Actually looking back we have been shockingly patient and lenient.

Everyone thinks they have good reasons for killing people. Even us, thats the point.

Edit: Everyone we have met has been worthy of help except Riona? Really???
 
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zxzx24 said:
I mean I dont judge Homura for killing a fuck ton of people.

Or those stupid stupid stupid magical girls who started a fight in the middle of a city for no reason.

Actually looking back we have been shockingly patient and lenient.

Everyone thinks they have good reasons for killing people. Even us, thats the point.
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There is a very big difference between killing people for the good of other people or in self-defense or because you've been in a time loop for twelve years and you're coming unraveled at the ends, and stealing people's souls for your personal slaves. Christ.
 
PhDEevee said:
I don't understand how this is a response to my comment, but she's already made clear she's not sticking around. Why would she even bring it up as a thing?
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She's still gonna be here for a day or two, dude.

zxzx24 said:
I mean I dont judge Homura for killing a fuck ton of people.

Or those stupid stupid stupid magical girls who started a fight in the middle of a city for no reason.

Actually looking back we have been shockingly patient and lenient.

Everyone thinks they have good reasons for killing people. Even us, thats the point.
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Homura doesn't fucking enjoy it and stopped as soon as she was given another option.

Those girls are, as you said, stupid and immediately capitulated after we kicked their fight was mostly kicked off by hysteria we accidentally exacerbated.

kinigget said:
Sabrina is not an executioner and I will not make her one
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Then invest in a refrigerator.
 
Gadjo said:
There is a very big difference between killing people for the good of other people or in self-defense or because you've been in a time loop for twelve years and you're coming unraveled at the ends, and stealing people's souls for your personal slaves. Christ.
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What about killing people because your girlfriends dead and you hate everyone and you just want to make them hurt?

Or killing everyone because you have a batshit insane view of how the world works.
 
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