- Location
- ⇙
Riona came all the way to Japan after hearing some rumours, so giving her an offer with clear terms could work. We should probably still have a backup plan, in case the offer doesn't go over too well.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- London, 1935. August.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This is such a double standard. Is what Rion+a's doing horrible and wrong? Absolutely. Would we be arguing to immediately gem or kill her with no further discussion if we knew her requisite sob story? Of course we wouldn't. The only reason Homura, Oriko, Kirika, and Kyouko don't do exactly the same thing with exactly the same attitude is because their powers don't have quite the moral implications that Rion+a's do.
She clearly at least sees the need to justify each use of her power, so she's not unaware of the issues with it. Her insistence that the souls are unconscious definitely sound like the kind of thing someone says to make themselves feel better about stealing people souls, but we're also not the soulguca here and have never even seen these shades she uses. If she's right, what she's doing isn't magnitudes worse than the Fridge, and we were even briefly considering that this morning. And if she is wrong, again, she clearly wants to believe she's not enslaving conscious beings so she's not some random psychopath who thinks this is totally okay. Nadia even vouched for her not being a monster.
Everything here points to her seeing her powers as an unpleasant but not evil necessity. That's wrong, obviously, it is pretty evil, but like most meguca she probably had very little choice but to rationalize her powers if she wanted to live. If we can provide her with something she wants more and/or a less objectionable alternative, there's no reason for her not to stop. I'm not suggesting we won't need to gem or kill her in the near future, but doing so without even trying something less violent when she shows every sign of being open to it is throwing our whole "everything can be fixed" philosophy out the window.
Also, getting into a fight with a soulguca of Mami-level power and experience while she's within arm's length of our and Mami's soul gems is just a terrible idea, especially when we know next to nothing about how her powers actually work.
[X] Onmur
She clearly at least sees the need to justify each use of her power, so she's not unaware of the issues with it. Her insistence that the souls are unconscious definitely sound like the kind of thing someone says to make themselves feel better about stealing people souls, but we're also not the soulguca here and have never even seen these shades she uses. If she's right, what she's doing isn't magnitudes worse than the Fridge, and we were even briefly considering that this morning. And if she is wrong, again, she clearly wants to believe she's not enslaving conscious beings so she's not some random psychopath who thinks this is totally okay. Nadia even vouched for her not being a monster.
Everything here points to her seeing her powers as an unpleasant but not evil necessity. That's wrong, obviously, it is pretty evil, but like most meguca she probably had very little choice but to rationalize her powers if she wanted to live. If we can provide her with something she wants more and/or a less objectionable alternative, there's no reason for her not to stop. I'm not suggesting we won't need to gem or kill her in the near future, but doing so without even trying something less violent when she shows every sign of being open to it is throwing our whole "everything can be fixed" philosophy out the window.
Also, getting into a fight with a soulguca of Mami-level power and experience while she's within arm's length of our and Mami's soul gems is just a terrible idea, especially when we know next to nothing about how her powers actually work.
[X] Onmur
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Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Keeping in mind that this is an old and canny magical girl, I'd put it at 50/50 on whether or not this is a bluff
- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I also want to mention that diplomacying Riona might cause diplomacy issues with other people. Because... most people, most of our friends, are not gonna be okay with the whole 'soul army' thing. I'm not sure even Oriko or Homura would be comfortable with it, and that's saying something...
Good point. She might be bluffing and seeing if we'll take advantage of her 'weakness' and attack, basically checking our trustworthiness. That's an additional point for the diplomacy camp.
Yalls response to someone being up front is to immediately demand they change their behavior?
This is dumb. Your being dumb. Holy crap you go from having a conversation to shrieking about 'justice' within the first three minutes?
I'd react badly to a stranger moralizing at me, and yall want to open with in the first conversation?
[X] simmer down. Let her explain. Be open about concerns, but dont try to be a judge. Dont start making demands.
This is dumb. Your being dumb. Holy crap you go from having a conversation to shrieking about 'justice' within the first three minutes?
I'd react badly to a stranger moralizing at me, and yall want to open with in the first conversation?
[X] simmer down. Let her explain. Be open about concerns, but dont try to be a judge. Dont start making demands.
Muramasa
Best Girl
[] You appreciate her honesty. She could've lied about it.
[] Tell her the reason you believe you're here, the reason you exist is to help fix everything. This broken system. Everything about it.
[] Ask her if she's able to reverse her magic.
[] You want to work with her. You believe together we can do great things. Provide the means for girls to cleanse their gems without having to fight. Gain, independence from grief seeds. (Pull out one of your hope infused clear seeds), Maybe even one day reverse witchification.
[] I want a better world for all of us. That means giving everyone of us the chance to change. A chance to live in a world without fear of witching, without having to fight if you don't want to.
[] Please don't enslave anymore souls. And if you can, in time release the ones you do have.
[] Tell her the reason you believe you're here, the reason you exist is to help fix everything. This broken system. Everything about it.
[] Ask her if she's able to reverse her magic.
[] You want to work with her. You believe together we can do great things. Provide the means for girls to cleanse their gems without having to fight. Gain, independence from grief seeds. (Pull out one of your hope infused clear seeds), Maybe even one day reverse witchification.
[] I want a better world for all of us. That means giving everyone of us the chance to change. A chance to live in a world without fear of witching, without having to fight if you don't want to.
[] Please don't enslave anymore souls. And if you can, in time release the ones you do have.
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- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
When that behavior is stealing and enslaving other people's souls, then hell yes. I, personally, don't expect Rionna to immediately comply, but that's what negotiation is about.
But step 1 of negotiations is "Gather information and context".
Plus your forgetting the other issue with regards to negotiations: it's all about give and take and tradeoffs. Yes, she steals souls ... but that's also kind of why we wanted to talk to her in the first place. Because that means she can probably help with de-witching.
Plus, with the right modifications could easily become a form a life-extension
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- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Gathering info is a given, I'll give you that. However, you seem to have a couple misconceptions.
Firstly, our interest is in Rionna's (probable) ability to manipulate the Soul, as in performing surgery, not wholesale enslavement.
Secondly, magical girls are all liches, with the ability to heal away the ravages of time on both themselves and others. Life extension is irrelevant.
- Location
- The infinite well of fanfics
[X] Onmur
- Location
- Estonia
Reminder that we only know about Rionna's deeds, because she herself openly told us. For all her immoral actions, she has demonstrated nothing but blunt, basically self-debilitating level of honesty. Which means that if we do get her to voluntarily agree to stop and release, then we can reasonably expect honest compliance.
As for why she is OK with it in the first place? Those are her powers (which don't even have to come from an evil wish, but something classical like wanting to ressurrect a dead loved one), they offer an edge in a deadly world, there were some evil people, who seemed deserving, and she knows that the nature of souls in PMMMverse is fucked up anyway (as she wouldn't know about Madokami). Given enough time, the self-justifications would write themselves.
But we don't need to convince her that she is wrong, we just need to offer her a big enough carrot to be willing to release and change her behaviour, even if it's just to "humour" us. And she doesn't need to be our friend to be useful and so atone for her past deeds, even if she wouldn't be seeing it that way. We are here to completely overturn the wolf-eat-wolf world, not to give it validation by punishing actions done in it.
I don't even think we actually do need to hide our moral disgust, because I doubt she is stupid enough to not realize the her actions would be seen as creepy, by the most, even if she herself (no longer) thinks so. She clearly doesn't seem the type to care about social approval and if she is gung-ho enough to mistake disgust for killing intent and break the peace of what is, basically, a diplomatic meeting, then we would have all the justification to gem her.
[X] Onmur
As for why she is OK with it in the first place? Those are her powers (which don't even have to come from an evil wish, but something classical like wanting to ressurrect a dead loved one), they offer an edge in a deadly world, there were some evil people, who seemed deserving, and she knows that the nature of souls in PMMMverse is fucked up anyway (as she wouldn't know about Madokami). Given enough time, the self-justifications would write themselves.
But we don't need to convince her that she is wrong, we just need to offer her a big enough carrot to be willing to release and change her behaviour, even if it's just to "humour" us. And she doesn't need to be our friend to be useful and so atone for her past deeds, even if she wouldn't be seeing it that way. We are here to completely overturn the wolf-eat-wolf world, not to give it validation by punishing actions done in it.
I don't even think we actually do need to hide our moral disgust, because I doubt she is stupid enough to not realize the her actions would be seen as creepy, by the most, even if she herself (no longer) thinks so. She clearly doesn't seem the type to care about social approval and if she is gung-ho enough to mistake disgust for killing intent and break the peace of what is, basically, a diplomatic meeting, then we would have all the justification to gem her.
[X] Onmur
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- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
CornyBones does make a valid point that getting into a moral lecture so quickly might just piss her off. And that could lead to the worst-case scenario of her leaving; all the souls would remain enslaved, and an overpowered meguca running about that we may come into conflict with in the future.
Perhaps Onmur's current vote would be better left for the next post, or at most the post after that. For now maybe we could tell her that this isn't something we can ignore but that we'll get to the ethics later in this conversation, and for now show her the Clear Seed and share some of our plans for the future in how we want to improve the world for megucas. Basically, convince her that we're someone she wants to work with first.
Edit: On the other hand, she IS a 'get straight to the point' type, so maybe she won't care that much if we immediately get to the big stuff that's bothering us.
Perhaps Onmur's current vote would be better left for the next post, or at most the post after that. For now maybe we could tell her that this isn't something we can ignore but that we'll get to the ethics later in this conversation, and for now show her the Clear Seed and share some of our plans for the future in how we want to improve the world for megucas. Basically, convince her that we're someone she wants to work with first.
Edit: On the other hand, she IS a 'get straight to the point' type, so maybe she won't care that much if we immediately get to the big stuff that's bothering us.
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The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Okay so, my chief goal in interacting with her right now is to get her to stop and, if possible, reverse the damage, and to figure out what's necessary to do that. I don't think outright making demands will succeed at that, but we'll see what's necessary.
Before that, there's an important tactical consideration here though: It's also what I suspect will be her first argument if we ask her to release these souls:
I will stress that it is not a reason to stop, but we will need an answer to it.
These enslaved souls are frequently murderers, and those who aren't are likely guilty of crimes of a similar magnitude. If they are simply freed or restored, what happens next?
Again, this is not a reason to stop. It is a reason to plan.
If we're setting them free, it's not unlikely we'll need a check upon them too. If we're lucky it could be just as simple as mass antimagic enchantments, but we'll likely need something.
...It looks like we're going to need a meguca justice system sooner than we thought.
Before that, there's an important tactical consideration here though: It's also what I suspect will be her first argument if we ask her to release these souls:
I will stress that it is not a reason to stop, but we will need an answer to it.
These enslaved souls are frequently murderers, and those who aren't are likely guilty of crimes of a similar magnitude. If they are simply freed or restored, what happens next?
Again, this is not a reason to stop. It is a reason to plan.
If we're setting them free, it's not unlikely we'll need a check upon them too. If we're lucky it could be just as simple as mass antimagic enchantments, but we'll likely need something.
...It looks like we're going to need a meguca justice system sooner than we thought.
Good idea, but it has a potential issue: it would inevitably Witchbomb Sayaka, and as far as we know she still hasn't agreed to know about it.
I'll just point that nothing prevents Rion+a from simply exiting the privacy bubble
If the option is pushing for negotiation then I'd rather add the option to let Sayaka copy her powers.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Do them the dignity of killing them properly instead of turning their souls into zombie slaves?
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
I'm not inclined to killing anyone, if it can be avoided.
Taking from this, that line of thought also works in reverse: how other magical girls (those who don't know us personally) view us? We control Grief, the bane of magical girls everywhere.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I did say it's a protovote, I know it needs lots of refining. 
What I wanted to say about Riona's justifications... we've talked about it quite a few times by now, but meguca do not have a system they can rely on, no institutions, no justice, they're abandoned to survive on their own.
As teenagers. As human beings in a moment of crisis, who need benevolent guidance, in order to learn to be the good people they can be for the rest of their lives.
They don't have that, so whatever justice they can get is what they can make, and since they don't have long standing institutions to rely on, no traditions to be passed down on them beyond what they experienced before the contracts... they're basically creating 'justice' from the ground up. Fragile, barbaric, a justice that makes sense only in the context they are trapped in.
Riona surely must have experienced and see lots of truly awful shit. And every time she found something horrible, there was literally nobody there to help, if she had stood aside and done nothing, things would be worse.
That, I think, is how Riona justifiest herself, to herself. She made things better. Not all of it, some parts of her actions are debatably (sometimes rather simply) bad.
Take case A: A meguca goes around witching other meguca. As time passes, more meguca are condemned to meguca hell.
Case B: That meguca that would condemn other meguca into meguca hell, is instead condemned (though not as harshly).
I think if we frame a situation like this, we can see how Riona's intervention does improve things.
The fact that a soul is still condemned would be immoral... in a grander moral context. Riona probably hates herself for it, but she can justify taking souls because she made something better and needs the power to make sure she can keep improving whichever hellish situations she finds herself in.
So, what can we do, here, is nothing else but to allow Riona into that grander, more encompassing, moral system, in which there are tools and safety nets which allow one to do the moral thing, without risking everything they hold dear.
This is why I don't vote just to ask Riona to stop her soul taking in exchange for infinite cleansing. We need to elaborate, offer an actual solution and give reasons for Riona to believe in it. Otherwise, it's more like flipping a coin.
I... don't think we can agree with that. Even if it's forced by the system, practicing 'evil' things, like ~slavery, I think tends to affect a person. Giving someone permission to be a slaver for a period of time, would not end with them being someone who would want to give up on that, after the fact, I think.
What I wanted to say about Riona's justifications... we've talked about it quite a few times by now, but meguca do not have a system they can rely on, no institutions, no justice, they're abandoned to survive on their own.
As teenagers. As human beings in a moment of crisis, who need benevolent guidance, in order to learn to be the good people they can be for the rest of their lives.
They don't have that, so whatever justice they can get is what they can make, and since they don't have long standing institutions to rely on, no traditions to be passed down on them beyond what they experienced before the contracts... they're basically creating 'justice' from the ground up. Fragile, barbaric, a justice that makes sense only in the context they are trapped in.
Riona surely must have experienced and see lots of truly awful shit. And every time she found something horrible, there was literally nobody there to help, if she had stood aside and done nothing, things would be worse.
That, I think, is how Riona justifiest herself, to herself. She made things better. Not all of it, some parts of her actions are debatably (sometimes rather simply) bad.
Take case A: A meguca goes around witching other meguca. As time passes, more meguca are condemned to meguca hell.
Case B: That meguca that would condemn other meguca into meguca hell, is instead condemned (though not as harshly).
I think if we frame a situation like this, we can see how Riona's intervention does improve things.
The fact that a soul is still condemned would be immoral... in a grander moral context. Riona probably hates herself for it, but she can justify taking souls because she made something better and needs the power to make sure she can keep improving whichever hellish situations she finds herself in.
So, what can we do, here, is nothing else but to allow Riona into that grander, more encompassing, moral system, in which there are tools and safety nets which allow one to do the moral thing, without risking everything they hold dear.
This is why I don't vote just to ask Riona to stop her soul taking in exchange for infinite cleansing. We need to elaborate, offer an actual solution and give reasons for Riona to believe in it. Otherwise, it's more like flipping a coin.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
We shouldn't morally compromise for Rionna, but that doesn't mean we can't cut to the point, instead of going on a prolonged lecture.
[ ] That's horrifying. Death would be kinder.
-[ ] Even if Riona's actions could be justified in some ways, your entire purpose is to make a world where they aren't necessary.
[ ] You can share nigh-unlimited cleansing - doing so is in large part your goal. You'd hoped that a soul manipulator like her could help you truly change the system, and free magical girls from their fate. But enslaving souls is unacceptable, regardless of the crimes of her targets.
[ ] If she's not convinced we can accomplish our dream, give us a chance:
-[ ] Explain the progress we've made.
-[ ] She'll stay where we can see her, and help us work on de-Witching.
-[ ] She'll agree to stop taking Souls.
-[ ] She'll agree to restore/release the ones she's taken, once she sees we're making progress, that we're actually making things better.
[ ] That's horrifying. Death would be kinder.
-[ ] Even if Riona's actions could be justified in some ways, your entire purpose is to make a world where they aren't necessary.
[ ] You can share nigh-unlimited cleansing - doing so is in large part your goal. You'd hoped that a soul manipulator like her could help you truly change the system, and free magical girls from their fate. But enslaving souls is unacceptable, regardless of the crimes of her targets.
[ ] If she's not convinced we can accomplish our dream, give us a chance:
-[ ] Explain the progress we've made.
-[ ] She'll stay where we can see her, and help us work on de-Witching.
-[ ] She'll agree to stop taking Souls.
-[ ] She'll agree to restore/release the ones she's taken, once she sees we're making progress, that we're actually making things better.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I did say it's a protovote, I know it needs lots of refining.
I... don't think we can agree with that. Even if it's forced by the system, practicing 'evil' things, like ~slavery, I think tends to affect a person. Giving someone permission to be a slaver for a period of time, would not end with them being someone who would want to give up on that, after the fact, I think.
Fair enough. There's a reason I dropped that angle after all. I was treating it like life without parole for a while.
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- Location
- Illinois
@AuraTwilight would you mind throwing up again?
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I agree, this is part of what needs to go into our next set of actions.
I think I put it as "we'll take care of" or some such. We need to offer alternatives.
I think it would be a good start, to 'calm down and let Riona know we appreciate her honesty'.
Anything that extends the chance to talk peacefully, on both of our parts.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
On Riona's honesty: Slight rambling:
I think the fact she's telling us all these things, upfront, without trying to bother sugarcoating any of it, has to do with trust.
Wanting to trust.
This is obviously just a reading, and I might be wrong, or there just might be many other ways to explain Riona's actions, but I see her as someone who wants to be understood, who wants to have the support that's been denied to her.
She wants someone who can understand her, who can help her.
If she makes herself to stand in the worst light possible (within reason)? It's basically bait. Will we take it, and decry her? Like everyone else? Riona does hold a city by herself, and I do not believe anyone would particularly want that. Compare: Mami.
I would say Riona holds out hope that the world can be fair and just. By being blunt like this, she's...
...
..............
Oh my god, is Riona tsundere?
What I meant to say, Riona's not a social girl. Being upfront and throwing all the information at someone is a way to deal with social stress. She just want to get rid of it. If that helps sort out the people who give a shit from those that don't, bonus.
Do we give a shit?
(Do we want to understand her?)
I think the fact she's telling us all these things, upfront, without trying to bother sugarcoating any of it, has to do with trust.
Wanting to trust.
This is obviously just a reading, and I might be wrong, or there just might be many other ways to explain Riona's actions, but I see her as someone who wants to be understood, who wants to have the support that's been denied to her.
She wants someone who can understand her, who can help her.
If she makes herself to stand in the worst light possible (within reason)? It's basically bait. Will we take it, and decry her? Like everyone else? Riona does hold a city by herself, and I do not believe anyone would particularly want that. Compare: Mami.
I would say Riona holds out hope that the world can be fair and just. By being blunt like this, she's...
...
..............
Oh my god, is Riona tsundere?
What I meant to say, Riona's not a social girl. Being upfront and throwing all the information at someone is a way to deal with social stress. She just want to get rid of it. If that helps sort out the people who give a shit from those that don't, bonus.
Do we give a shit?
(Do we want to understand her?)